God and Government

[Tree of Life]

The smaller your view of God, the bigger you want your government to be.

Discuss.

 

[Stringfellow_Hawke]

 

[Strathos]

How does this fit with those who want a strict theocracy?

 

[Tree of Life]

How does this fit with those who want a strict theocracy?

There ought be no theocracy this side of heaven. God rules all the nations, to be sure. And nations ought to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ. But no church should rule over a nation.

 

[dreadnought]

The smaller your view of God, the bigger you want your government to be.

Discuss.

To a point, but I think we need government for some of the services it provides.

 

[Strathos]

There ought be no theocracy this side of heaven. God rules all the nations, to be sure. And nations ought to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ. But no church should rule over a nation.

But some people want it to.

 

[W2L]

I believe politicians will corrupt the church. Just my opinion.

 

[bcbsr]

The smaller your view of God, the bigger you want your government to be.

Discuss.

The less moral a society, the more rules they need to restrain their sinful nature

 

[ViaCrucis]

The smaller your view of God, the bigger you want your government to be.

Discuss.

History would demonstrate this statement to not be true. The existence of theocratic states such as Iran today would also demonstrate this statement to not be true. Because

That doesn't mean the inverse correlation is true: that the bigger your view of God, the bigger you want your government to be. It simply means there is no correlation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

The less moral a society, the more rules they need to restrain their sinful nature

Have you read the Old Testament? Did Israel have more rules when it was less moral? Did it have less rules when it was more moral?

Because as far as the rules which governed the nation, they seemed to be rather unchanging in and of themselves, regardless of the moral conduct of the people. Though as far as to what degree justice was done, well I'm pretty sure King Ahab's rule didn't involve tighter rules, in spite of the fact that Ahab's rule is arguably among the worst in the two kingdoms.

I get that you want to find some correlation between your own perceived sense of piety and your political ideology; but it is probably a good idea to ground the things one says in factual reality.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bcbsr]

Have you read the Old Testament? Did Israel have more rules when it was less moral? Did it have less rules when it was more moral?

Because as far as the rules which governed the nation, they seemed to be rather unchanging in and of themselves, regardless of the moral conduct of the people. Though as far as to what degree justice was done, well I'm pretty sure King Ahab's rule didn't involve tighter rules, in spite of the fact that Ahab's rule is arguably among the worst in the two kingdoms.

I get that you want to find some correlation between your own perceived sense of piety and your political ideology; but it is probably a good idea to ground the things one says in factual reality.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm just talking about the principle of what societies should have, not what they did have and not what they do have. Take Iraq as an example. They were under a dictator of sorts - limited freedoms - harsh punishments, and they experience relative peace despite being a mix of various sects of Islam along side Christians. But give them the freedom of democracy and all hell breaks loose.

A society in which love is characteristic of its citizens doesn't need a lot of regulations. That should be obvious as a principle. Which is why there are very few regulations spoken of in the Epistles written to Christians and most commands are about attitude. This in contrast to being under the law, which is for those not born of God.

 

[W2L]

When one is preaching the kingdom can he also preach politics? MLK peacefully marched but i dont think he ever preached about joining a political faction, neither did he preach most of the dissension that is present in politics. Matter of fact he said that neither republican or democrat are Gods party.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm just talking about the principle of what societies should have, not what they did have and not what they do have. Take Iraq as an example. They were under a dictator of sorts - limited freedoms - harsh punishments, and they experience relative peace despite being a mix of various sects of Islam along side Christians. But give them the freedom of democracy and all hell breaks loose.

A society in which love is characteristic of its citizens doesn't need a lot of regulations. That should be obvious as a principle. Which is why there are very few regulations spoken of in the Epistles written to Christians and most commands are about attitude. This in contrast to being under the law, which is for those not born of God.

So a just society should not have rules to govern the conduct of its populace?

I'm a Lutheran, that means I believe the primary purpose of government is to govern people justly and peaceably as much as possible; civil law exists for the purpose of curbing civil evil. That reality is necessitated by the fact that everyone is a sinner, and if left to our own devices will gravitate toward our own selfish interests, even destructively (homo incurvatus in se, man bent inward upon himself). I don't believe that human beings are inherently righteous and, if we were to allow anarchy to flourish then everyone would just live happily ever after. While the condition of the State is always fallen, and often at odds with God's good will (as the State, almost by necessity, is about power for power's sake), it nevertheless serves a temporal good as St. Paul discusses in Romans 13, in the execution of justice and curb wickedness. Anarchy is not a preferred way of being, anarchy is merely another name for the tyranny of selfishness, and man will always struggle against man, in the pursuit of power precisely because the natural appetites, perverted by sin, will lead him against God and neighbor and toward himself. And so a civil society is necessitated in order for the basic needs of human beings in this fallen world. My concern, therefore, is not whether or not there ought to be the rule of law, but what kind of rule of law we ought to seek: and I believe, as Augustine said, "unjust laws are no law at all", echoed also in the writings of Martin Luther King, Jr. We must therefore seek the establishment of just laws in which our neighbor might live in some manner of peace, to see to it that there is food, water, medicine, clothing, shelter, and the common welfare. The rule of law is not itself a problem, the problem is when the rule of law becomes an instrument of injustice, rather than justice. It is therefore necessary that the Church, as Martin Luther King, Jr said, is never servant or master of the State, but instead the critic and conscience of the State--decrying social injustice and evil, and promoting social justice and good for the common good of our neighbors.

Neither Authoritarianism nor Anarchy are good; both bring with it their own evils. It is therefor incumbent upon people of conscience to promote civil justice and peace--and as the people of Christ called to be peacemakers in the world, to whom St. Paul has also commanded that we are to live peaceably with all as far as it is up to us, that we ought to be a people of conscience for the common good of our neighbor--calling upon having a society that promotes for the common welfare and justice of our neighbors. It's not about a "big government" or a "small government", but about having a working government that works for the common good of the people. And this should be desired out of a place of faith and committment to God who has shown us, through His Law, to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God (Micah 6:8).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bcbsr]

So a just society should not have rules to govern the conduct of its populace?

I'm a Lutheran, that means I believe the primary purpose of government is to govern people justly and peaceably as much as possible; civil law exists for the purpose of curbing civil evil.
-CryptoLutheran

You just admitted that there is no "just" society. Of which I also agree for the same reason, namely that all are sinners.

But what I'm talking about is a matter of degree. I agree that as you say, "civil law exists for the purpose of curbing civil evil." But not everyone is equally sinful and thus freedoms should be allowed for those who typically do what is right. And that's why there are such restrictions of freedoms for those in prison, for example.

 

[W2L]

So a just society should not have rules to govern the conduct of its populace?

I'm a Lutheran, that means I believe the primary purpose of government is to govern people justly and peaceably as much as possible; civil law exists for the purpose of curbing civil evil. That reality is necessitated by the fact that everyone is a sinner, and if left to our own devices will gravitate toward our own selfish interests, even destructively (homo incurvatus in se, man bent inward upon himself). I don't believe that human beings are inherently righteous and, if we were to allow anarchy to flourish then everyone would just live happily ever after. While the condition of the State is always fallen, and often at odds with God's good will (as the State, almost by necessity, is about power for power's sake), it nevertheless serves a temporal good as St. Paul discusses in Romans 13, in the execution of justice and curb wickedness. Anarchy is not a preferred way of being, anarchy is merely another name for the tyranny of selfishness, and man will always struggle against man, in the pursuit of power precisely because the natural appetites, perverted by sin, will lead him against God and neighbor and toward himself. And so a civil society is necessitated in order for the basic needs of human beings in this fallen world. My concern, therefore, is not whether or not there ought to be the rule of law, but what kind of rule of law we ought to seek: and I believe, as Augustine said, "unjust laws are no law at all", echoed also in the writings of Martin Luther King, Jr. We must therefore seek the establishment of just laws in which our neighbor might live in some manner of peace, to see to it that there is food, water, medicine, clothing, shelter, and the common welfare. The rule of law is not itself a problem, the problem is when the rule of law becomes an instrument of injustice, rather than justice. It is therefore necessary that the Church, as Martin Luther King, Jr said, is never servant or master of the State, but instead the critic and conscience of the State--decrying social injustice and evil, and promoting social justice and good for the common good of our neighbors.

Neither Authoritarianism nor Anarchy are good; both bring with it their own evils. It is therefor incumbent upon people of conscience to promote civil justice and peace--and as the people of Christ called to be peacemakers in the world, to whom St. Paul has also commanded that we are to live peaceably with all as far as it is up to us, that we ought to be a people of conscience for the common good of our neighbor--calling upon having a society that promotes for the common welfare and justice of our neighbors. It's not about a "big government" or a "small government", but about having a working government that works for the common good of the people. And this should be desired out of a place of faith and committment to God who has shown us, through His Law, to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God (Micah 6:8).

-CryptoLutheran

I believe God judges the world and its our business to judge only the church.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Have you read the Old Testament? Did Israel have more rules when it was less moral? Did it have less rules when it was more moral?

The OT rules handed down by God to Moses were meant for the duration of the nation of Israel until Jesus came. The fact that morality and level of following God varied over thousands of years matters not to the concept proposed in the OP.

I get that you want to find some correlation between your own perceived sense of piety and your political ideology; but it is probably a good idea to ground the things one says in factual reality.

Try the truth of Jesus' words instead of your "factual reality". Jesus said that all of the OT laws stand on two simple rules, Matthew 22:35-40. Further, the additional rules the Pharisees added only because of their lack of true dedication to God.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It is therefor incumbent upon people of conscience to promote civil justice and peace--and as the people of Christ called to be peacemakers in the world, to whom St. Paul has also commanded that we are to live peaceably with all as far as it is up to us, that we ought to be a people of conscience for the common good of our neighbor--calling upon having a society that promotes for the common welfare and justice of our neighbors.

The problem is when "moral" people try to legislate morality.
The problem is when "moral" people try to legislate Christian acts of faith. Charity is no longer charity when money is forcibly taken from one and given to another. Jesus said there will always be poor. He did not teach communism or a social justice world where all receive equally. One point of poor is for those with to learn to freely give up what they have to help those in need. When the government tries to legislate this, it is no longer a blessing to those that give to the poor.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Where ? What planet are you talking about ! ?
God does not 'rule all the nations' currently, (He never has) , to be sure - He set the boundaries, and raises up and bring down leaders as He pleases,
but lets the nations 'have their way' growing every day in wickedness and evil, towards the end when they will all be finally and fully judged for their sin....
What nations ought to do, they won't do , until Jesus Returns, Soon.

God rules all the nations, to be sure. And nations ought to acknowledge the Lordship of Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I believe God judges the world and its our business to judge only the church.

As written in Scripture... yes. We judge those within, Yahweh judges those outside ....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I believe politicians will corrupt the church. Just my opinion.

Sorry, you're wrong this time W2L ...... (but not in purpose nor in your goal nor in your faith and trust in God and Jesus, nor in your experiential knowledge of God's Word , etc etc etc...) (i.e. mostly you are right! )

No, you're actually 'right' except for the time and direction - the church corrupted the politicians (as written : will cause all the leaders of the nations to commit (spiritual) fornication// already accomplished long ago and continuing)
so they are both/all corrupt together, in one humongous mess that only God will be able to Judge correctly and straighten out when Jesus returns.