Go forth and multiply?

[Created2Write]

Population: Sustainability, I think was the title.

 

[freedom1807]

Doh! I didn't realise the replies had run onto 3 pages, so am alternating between being thrilled and cringing to have missed seeing more posts!

Rebekka-thank you so much for your thoughts on factory farming-I am a committed veggie, and to that end I do my fair share of 'stand up for animals' banner waving. Factory farming really gets to me-I'm sure Jesus would have not supported this, especially as (I think) there are references in the Bible likening Him to innocent lambs being led to the slaughter, and there always seems to be many images with Jesus tenderly cradling a baby lamb-very far removed from the reality of the modern lamb! I have always been surprised that Christians have not appeared to be very numerous or vocal in animal rights campaigns/issues etc. and for all the statements and sermons a church may preach about, say, family values, respecting your neighbours etc. it doesn't seem to say very much, if at all, anything about animals. Compare this to Buddhism for example, which is quite well known for being very animal compassionate, particularly with the monks, who are usually vegetarian and take in and care for stray, abused or neglected animals at the temples. It's certainly pause for thought.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I'm certainly not a vegitarian. Furthest thing from it actually. I enjoy hunting and will try any animal once grilled up. But, on that same token, I'm NOT for animal cruelty AT ALL. Seeing videos of cows at the slaughter having their throats ripped out and them staggering around until they sufficate while the factory workers stand around laughing at it turns my stomach. That kind of thing sickens me and I'm SURE God frowns upon that sort of behavior.

Just because we were granted dominion over animals does NOT give us the right to mistreat them. It also doesn't mean we should elivate animals to a level they shouldn't be at (no one here does that AFAIK).

 

[abrickrock]

It seems mainstream Christianity Preaches that if you love animals you must hate people. Just like if you are childfree you must hate children. I never like when some religious groups raise money for a charity that helps people and they sometimes criticize people for helping animals. As if by helping animals we are somehow hurting people. Years ago I had a great interest in Buddhism and Hinduism. I think mainly because those religions seem more compassionate. But after actually reading the words of Jesus I knew he was the truth and his sheep will hear his voice. I personally believe that animals are not separated from God in the same way we are. I can imagine the animals flocking toward Jesus because they knew him and that he desired mercy not sacrifice.

 

[Rebekka]

Rebekka-thank you so much for your thoughts on factory farming-I am a committed veggie, and to that end I do my fair share of 'stand up for animals' banner waving. Factory farming really gets to me-I'm sure Jesus would have not supported this, especially as (I think) there are references in the Bible likening Him to innocent lambs being led to the slaughter, and there always seems to be many images with Jesus tenderly cradling a baby lamb-very far removed from the reality of the modern lamb! I have always been surprised that Christians have not appeared to be very numerous or vocal in animal rights campaigns/issues etc. and for all the statements and sermons a church may preach about, say, family values, respecting your neighbours etc. it doesn't seem to say very much, if at all, anything about animals. Compare this to Buddhism for example, which is quite well known for being very animal compassionate, particularly with the monks, who are usually vegetarian and take in and care for stray, abused or neglected animals at the temples. It's certainly pause for thought.

Very good points! I see it as a sort of conspiracy of mainstream christianity that they keep the whole animal issue under the rug, as if cruelty against animals doesn't exist. One can use the bible to defend treating animals as products but also to defend animal rights activism - same as with most other things, the bible leaves room for interpretation. But the way I read it, we are to see everyone as our neighbour - that's the way St Francis of Assisi saw it, too. He saw animals as his brothers and sisters.

Also, the current pope (Benedict XVI) and the previous pope (Bl. John Paul II) have/had more enlightened views on animals and the environment than the church leaders before. Sadly, the most orthodox catholics and other christians still ignore those texts and only focus on humans, even deny that there is environmental damage or global warming etc. That makes me very sad.

I'm in the Netherlands, and we have an animal rights party in parliament (two seats), in the senate (one seat), in provincial government, and perhaps even in municipal government in some cities. The leader of this party is a christian, and her christianity plays an important part in her animal rights activism. The English version of their website isn't as good as the Dutch one but for those who are interested, here it is.
Party for the Animals - WELCOME

It seems mainstream Christianity Preaches that if you love animals you must hate people. Just like if you are childfree you must hate children. I never like when some religious groups raise money for a charity that helps people and they sometimes criticize people for helping animals. As if by helping animals we are somehow hurting people. Years ago I had a great interest in Buddhism and Hinduism. I think mainly because those religions seem more compassionate. But after actually reading the words of Jesus I knew he was the truth and his sheep will hear his voice. I personally believe that animals are not separated from God in the same way we are. I can imagine the animals flocking toward Jesus because they knew him and that he desired mercy not sacrifice.

Well said. I hate sophisms, and the thought that loving animals means you hate people is a sophism. Doing good cannot be evil, by doing a certain good you are not damaging another worthy cause. God loves animals, He created them. He loves people, too. It is possible to love both.

I believe that animals are not separated from God, either. They cannot sin, and sin separates us from God. It was not the fault of animals but of humans that sin entered the world.

 

[freedom1807]

Audiomechanic-I respect your honesty-I think many meat eaters also feel the same way, that although they love to eat their meat, that doesn't automatically mean they approve of all the unnecessary actions that accompany the slaughter-ie the cruelty of tormenting and torturing the animals as we so sadly see in undercover investigations. However I personally don't think being an animal rights campaigner means you are elevating animals to a level that they shouldn't be at. Fighting for animals doesn't mean you are putting them on a pedestal, it just means you believe they should be treated with respect and dignity, living their lives out peacefully and without fear of harm or stress, just like humans aspire to.

 

[freedom1807]

Abrickrock-so, so true, couldn't agree more, although I find that attitude exists in the secular world too! When I was at an anti-fur demonstration not too long ago, I was actually accused of wasting time and being selfish for campaigning against this, as I should have been spending that time and effort on human problems. I was angry and said a lot of us are involved in human issues as well thank you very much, and just because we're fighting against the viciously cruel fur trade doesn't mean we hate humans and don't care about them. I asked him what human issues he thought were important and he gave human trafficking for sexual slavery/exploitation as examples. It was with great satisfaction and smugness that I replied aha! I couldn't agree more, which is exactly why I started an anti-trafficking awareness group in my local community. That shut him up!!!

Although not a Christian, I like to think animals would be in heaven, and am always disappointed when Christians tell me that there won't be because animals have no souls. I suppose the plus side of that though is that they won't be in hell!

I do find it positively bizarre, not to mention downright ignorant, the way people assume if you like animals, you hate people. If you don't want kids, you hate them or are abnormal in some way. I agree with Rebekkah that it is possible to care for both!

Rebekkah-thanks so much for the link to Party for the Animals, I thought the website was excellent. Here in the UK we have Animals Count, although it is not anywhere as successful as the Dutch party. There is also a group called Christian Vegetarian Association, which I was really pleased to come across, with links to other Christian animal advocate organisations, including Catholic Concern for Animals and Christians Against All Animal Abuse, so good, encouraging stuff! Lastly apologies for inadvertently turning this into an animal rights thread, it really was originally a child free rant!!!

 

[snoochface]

freedom, I'm a Christian, and I personally think there is a ton of evidence that animals will be with us in heaven. Just offering up a different perspective than what you've gotten in the past

 

[Created2Write]

I think one reason why some people associate the "animal rights" belief with being against humans, is that many times, those same people who condone animal rights, are very for abortion. I am not a vegetarian, and I am not a believer in being cruel to animals. I can barely stand to punish my puppy when he pees on my carpet. However, if it comes to choosing between the life of an animal, and the life of a human, I will always choose the human. Humans are more intelligent and more evolved species on the planet. That doesn't give us the right to torture or be cruel to animals. God put his here to look after them, not use their suffering as our form of entertainment. But, He did put US over THEM.

Now, I love it when people help animals who've been harmed. My mother in-law is one. She's saved four horses from abusive homes, and they are now very loving around people. I don't think that by being an animal lover that somehow a person suddenly becomes anti-human. However, as I said above, if it comes to saving an animal or saving a human, I believe the choice should always be that the human comes first. Jesus didn't die to save the animals, He died to save humans. The Bible says animals will be in heaven, so I have no doubt that He loves them and cherishes them too, but He loves humans more. I think we are to do the same.

 

[abrickrock]

I believe animals will be in heaven maybe they are there now. Maybe they can see God and us at the same time. We don’t know. There is a story in the book of numbers about Balaam and his donkey. The donkey can see angles and Balaam can not. After Balaam beats the donkey God allows the donkey to talk and Balaam to see the angles and the danger the donkey was protecting him from. Maybe the spirit world is all around us but only animals can see it. Sin is what separates us from God and animals can’t sin. You can still be Christian and love animals and not have children. You can even be a free thinker and believe animals can see God. The only thing you need to be Christian is the belief that Christ died for our sins. I would say that God loves us in a different way than he loves animals because we are in his image.

 

[Rebekka]

I believe animals will be in heaven maybe they are there now. Maybe they can see God and us at the same time. We don’t know. There is a story in the book of numbers about Balaam and his donkey. The donkey can see angles and Balaam can not. After Balaam beats the donkey God allows the donkey to talk and Balaam to see the angles and the danger the donkey was protecting him from. Maybe the spirit world is all around us but only animals can see it. Sin is what separates us from God and animals can’t sin. You can still be Christian and love animals and not have children. You can even be a free thinker and believe animals can see God. The only thing you need to be Christian is the belief that Christ died for our sins. I would say that God loves us in a different way than he loves animals because we are in his image.

Yes, this is how I look at the relationship between animals and God, too. They are not separated from God, they cannot sin, they are exactly as God intended them to be.

Created2Write, Jesus didn't come to save the animals because they didn't need to be saved. Jesus died for our sins but animals have no sins.

It may be so that a lot of animal rights activists are pro-abortion, but not all are (I'm not), and thankfully there are christians who are animal rights activists and/or vegetarian/vegan, for biblical reasons, as the diet of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden was strictly vegetarian - and the animals were vegetarians, too.

I'm not a biblical literalist and I don't think the bible is inerrant, because I see a lot of logical and moral contradictions in it (which isn't very surprising considering the bible has many different authors and was written over a long period). One of the things I have a problem with is how Genesis is used as an excuse to abuse animals, to see them as products, as inferior beings that we can treat however we like. I know that not all christians agree with this view, thank God, and likewise not all animal rights people are for abortion, thank God. Hitler was a vegetarian, that's often used as an argument against vegetarianism, too.

 

[abrickrock]

not all animal rights people are for abortion, thank God. Hitler was a vegetarian, that's often used as an argument against vegetarianism, too.

The Hitler thing drives me crazy too. I don't think he was a real vegitarian. Not that it would matter. I am not vegitarian but I used to be. I am also against abortion.

 

[freedom1807]

Oh my gosh, Hitler was a vegetarian??? Ugh, that's practically enough to make me go back to carnivore.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Free:

with regard to the "go forth" Tell your "friend" she can cross that one "off her list"
They got that done before they left Egypt.

People who chose to be in bondage often feel threatened by those who chose to be free. They are the ones who live "safely". Nothing wrong with it, but it's like living your life in fear - they "fear" not being "normal" or rejection. Incomplete. Many of them will forever be incomplete. They are incomplete til they "find husbands", then incomplete til they have children, then incomplete empty nesters & "want to just die" if their husbands leave them (by divorce or death). The pin all the responsbility for their happiness on us/others. Frankly that's not the path I wish to walk or listen too all day long, have you ever listened to a woman talk all day long about potty training-Lord deliver me from these women-selah.

Make your own choices, be happy,be free or not, but you seem to at least understand you are the one you have to live with. Good for you!

 

[freedom1807]

have you ever listened to a woman talk all day long about potty training-Lord deliver me from these women-selah.

God yes! Or about their first step or tooth or word....borrrring! Unfortunately it's come to the point where everyone around me is embarking on pro-creation. Fine, but to be brutally frank I really couldn't care less that little Johnny did a wonderful painting last week. And no, you don't need to send it to me with your letter for me to fawn over.

I completely agree, Grace, that many people pin their happiness on others. I remember at school, fellow pupils would feel upset and insecure if they didn't have a boyfriend. I was far too busy having fun with school work, TV, hobbies etc. etc. It didn't even occur to me that at the tender age of 13 or so, I was meant to think about boys in that way and get a boyfriend.

And I think it's awful when single people admit they want kids/had kids so as to not feel lonely anymore and have company. For goodness sake, what are they, dogs?? Kids shouldn't be brought into this world to complete an individual's self worth.

If someone called me selfish for not having kids I would reply I think they're selfish for having biological kids in a world heaving with orphaned, neglected, unwanted or abused kids. I really feel for those children, leading awful childhoods and probably awful adolescent and adulthoods, just because 2 irresponsible people got together.

I know that in the very unlikely event I change my mind and want them, adoption is the only route I would take. I really admire Barbara Harris and Project Prevention. Ultimately the money she is paying to drug addicts to be on long term birth control/get sterilised is merely a controversial means to a responsible end-no neglected, unwanted kids.

Oops, another rant!

 

[Audiomechanic]

have you ever listened to a woman talk all day long about potty training-Lord deliver me from these women-selah.

God yes! Or about their first step or tooth or word....borrrring! Unfortunately it's come to the point where everyone around me is embarking on pro-creation. Fine, but to be brutally frank I really couldn't care less that little Johnny did a wonderful painting last week. And no, you don't need to send it to me with your letter for me to fawn over.

I completely agree, Grace, that many people pin their happiness on others. I remember at school, fellow pupils would feel upset and insecure if they didn't have a boyfriend. I was far too busy having fun with school work, TV, hobbies etc. etc. It didn't even occur to me that at the tender age of 13 or so, I was meant to think about boys in that way and get a boyfriend.

And I think it's awful when single people admit they want kids/had kids so as to not feel lonely anymore and have company. For goodness sake, what are they, dogs?? Kids shouldn't be brought into this world to complete an individual's self worth.

If someone called me selfish for not having kids I would reply I think they're selfish for having biological kids in a world heaving with orphaned, neglected, unwanted or abused kids. I really feel for those children, leading awful childhoods and probably awful adolescent and adulthoods, just because 2 irresponsible people got together.

I know that in the very unlikely event I change my mind and want them, adoption is the only route I would take. I really admire Barbara Harris and Project Prevention. Ultimately the money she is paying to drug addicts to be on long term birth control/get sterilised is merely a controversial means to a responsible end-no neglected, unwanted kids.

Oops, another rant!

+1 on all points.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Just because people "want" children does not mean they should have em. I have
also thought that before people have children they should get a dog or something
they have to take care of before embaring on their pro-create missions.

 

[Created2Write]

Yes, this is how I look at the relationship between animals and God, too. They are not separated from God, they cannot sin, they are exactly as God intended them to be.

Created2Write, Jesus didn't come to save the animals because they didn't need to be saved. Jesus died for our sins but animals have no sins.

True. But that's because, in the animal world, there is no understanding of right and wrong. They aren't better than us, or even equal to us, just because they've never sinned. Even though my puppy loves me to death, he doesn't understand why he shouldn't pee in the house. He knows he gets in trouble when he does, but he doesn't understand why. I don't need him to understand why, either. I only need him to understand that he shouldn't pee in the house. Jesus needs us to understand why our sins are wrong, otherwise, we can't be saved. That's where I make the distinction. A human life will always be superior to an animals, imo.

It may be so that a lot of animal rights activists are pro-abortion, but not all are (I'm not), and thankfully there are christians who are animal rights activists and/or vegetarian/vegan, for biblical reasons, as the diet of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden was strictly vegetarian - and the animals were vegetarians, too.

Where does it say Adam and Eve were vegetarians? I know God gave the permission to eat of any of the trees accept for one, but that doesn't mean they only ate plants. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I've just never ever seen that in the Bible anywhere. Jews were also allowed to eat some eats, so it wouldn't really make sense for Adam and Eve to only be veggetarians, while the later Jews could, and did, eat meat.

I'm not a biblical literalist and I don't think the bible is inerrant, because I see a lot of logical and moral contradictions in it (which isn't very surprising considering the bible has many different authors and was written over a long period). One of the things I have a problem with is how Genesis is used as an excuse to abuse animals, to see them as products, as inferior beings that we can treat however we like. I know that not all christians agree with this view, thank God, and likewise not all animal rights people are for abortion, thank God. Hitler was a vegetarian, that's often used as an argument against vegetarianism, too.

I don't think abusing animals is right at all. I do believe God gave us dominion over them, meaning we could use them to feed ourselves, but that doesn't mean hurting them for sport or entertainment. I am 100% against animal abuse, just like I'm 100% against humanity abuse. Abuse, in general, is a nasty thing.

 

[chris4243]

God told us to "be fruitful" and to "fill the earth and subdue it", both of which we have done. God has not told us to "overpopulate the earth and yourselves be subdued by the lack of resources", and I don't think we should do that. Though to more fully complete God's command to be fruitful, we should probably go colonize other planets but that doesn't really relate to the topic.

Anyhow, I think it would be worth pointing out that Jesus probably wasn't very fruitful in the biological sense, but very much so in the spiritual sense.

 

[abrickrock]

Here is where it says plants were the natural food for all creatures.

Genisis 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Later on after the flood people were allowed to eat certain animal flesh remember after the flood there were no plants left. As I said a few posts back. Kosher meat can not come from factory farms. I'm not criticizing people for eating animals. I do it too. But I think vegtables were the intended food in the original world and the world to come. The lion will lie down with the lamb.
I dont think you can base the valve of life on inteligence. I wouldn't say my life was more valuable then some person with a mental disability. The difference is that we are in Gods image. However you define that.