GK Chesterton 101

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,404
5,021
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟434,811.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think this thread needs a bump every year or so. Everyone ought to encounter this big fat jolly elf and his incredible store of wisdom for Christians in the modern world. Just start from the beginning and offer comments after reading something - anything - especially his quotations if you have never read him...
"Quotations"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Communion
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,404
5,021
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟434,811.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thanks, folks.
Ches, I can probably get EWTN - but it is a serious problem figuring out if and when they run GKC stuff, let alone whether it is ever realistic on the limited time slots to watch them (you have to recalculate for GMT and GMT +3, where I am, and so lots of things are middle of the day - work time - or middle of the night - zzzzzz). If only I could automatically download while they were running it, I could watch it like a podcast.

Coralie - yes, it should be noted that the ideas of GKC's enemies, Shaw, Wells, Russell, Dewey, won the bout for control of the schools and what would be taught in them - so GB Shaw is required reading while GKC is buried under a rug.
 
Upvote 0
M

Memento Mori

Guest
GKC is one of my favorite writers ever. He's such a fanastic wit. I'm not sure about the comment of him being Orthodox. I think we all like to think that about our traditions... I fantasize about C.S. Lewis being Catholic if he had just read X or talked to Y, but to be honest I don't think he would have ever become Catholic. He was too set in his own way of thinking.

How many of G.K.'s books have you read, rusmeister? :)
 
Upvote 0

Scottish Knight

Veteran
Feb 17, 2010
1,602
221
Scotland
✟10,580.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Great thread, I've just been browsing through it. "Orthodoxy" is one of my favourite books of all time and I've enjoyed reading some of his other writings. His books seem to have an ability to cross denominations. I know quite a few baptists who also like his work. :thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Montalban

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2004
35,424
1,509
56
Sydney, NSW
✟42,787.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'm proud of it on my flag...

australia.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philothei
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,404
5,021
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟434,811.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
TAW is like the La Brea tar pits. Every so often, an old thread rises to the surface! :D
Well, as I said on the other thread I resurrected, I feel I have little else to offer TAW (besides on public education).

If we began applying thought, the way Chesterton actually did (and Lewis, but Chesterton is definitely the more penetrating and far-seeing of the two - he is a bona fide genius) then the nonsense of the modern world would be revealed for what it is - damned nonsense (literally damned).

To answer Jared's question, I have read half of Chesterton's major works, but certainly less than a quarter of his essays - since the rough total has been quoted at 80 books and over 4,000 essays, I think I can be forgiven the incompleteness.

I do not say that Chesterton was Orthodox or that he championed the Orthodox Church - but had its presence in England been more firmly established a century ago so that he could have known more than the tiny bit he knew of from his Catholic sources, he might seriously have become Orthodox. That's just speculation, but frankly, most of his defense of the Catholic Church can be equally applied to the Orthodox Church - he had nearly nothing at all to say about it - I have encountered 4 or 5 fleeting references to the OC out of everything that I have read.

As to "being set in one's thinking, I would ask (in the Chestertonian spirit - one that demands that we think about what we say) what exactly does that mean? We can say that the Orthodox Church is set in its way of thinking; of being unwillingly to consider that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God - but we would see that as intelligent dogma. So it is with GKC - even if he was wrong in places (and obviously, I believe he was wrong about the Catholic Church being the Church that faithfully passed on the Tradition from the beginning, or I would not be Orthodox), at least he had thought deeply and carefully about the bases of his views - something that very few of us actually do.
 
Upvote 0
M

Memento Mori

Guest
As to "being set in one's thinking, I would ask (in the Chestertonian spirit - one that demands that we think about what we say) what exactly does that mean? We can say that the Orthodox Church is set in its way of thinking; of being unwillingly to consider that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God - but we would see that as intelligent dogma. So it is with GKC - even if he was wrong in places (and obviously, I believe he was wrong about the Catholic Church being the Church that faithfully passed on the Tradition from the beginning, or I would not be Orthodox), at least he had thought deeply and carefully about the bases of his views - something that very few of us actually do.

I think Lewis was set in his own way of thinking in a bad or limited way. I don't mean this to slight him; I have read all of his published works and love him and know that he is by far my intellectual superior. If I can be so presumptuous, I think Lewis made the mistake of elevating reason too highly. Chesterton used reason and understanding like lenses to see the light of Tradition. Lewis seemed to use tradition (little t) as a trusted guide in exercising reason rather than reason's destination itself. Because of this thinking I don't think he could ever reconcile his theology with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,404
5,021
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟434,811.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think Lewis was set in his own way of thinking in a bad or limited way. I don't mean this to slight him; I have read all of his published works and love him and know that he is by far my intellectual superior. If I can be so presumptuous, I think Lewis made the mistake of elevating reason too highly. Chesterton used reason and understanding like lenses to see the light of Tradition. Lewis seemed to use tradition (little t) as a trusted guide in exercising reason rather than reason's destination itself. Because of this thinking I don't think he could ever reconcile his theology with Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
Thanks, Jared!

I think you're partly right, there. I wouldn't agree that he elevated reason too highly - his enormous humility and recognition of our limitations seem to have mostly put reason in a fairly proper place. For the rest, I agree, though.

Lewis's aim of leading people to Christ without the Church - that the question of the Church and its earthly presence is not vital - definitely makes him loved by everybody but is a fatal error. It basically says that the Church is not necessary.
We must never discuss that.
Christian Reflections (in ref to Church differences )

Still, to the person who does recognize the importance of the Church, everything such a person says that does not contradict, and indeed, supports the Church may be used in preaching and teaching - as long as the Church is the ultimate guide and arbiter.
 
Upvote 0

MKJ

Contributor
Jul 6, 2009
12,260
776
East
✟23,894.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Thanks, Jared!

I think you're partly right, there. I wouldn't agree that he elevated reason too highly - his enormous humility and recognition of our limitations seem to have mostly put reason in a fairly proper place. For the rest, I agree, though.

Lewis's aim of leading people to Christ without the Church - that the question of the Church and its earthly presence is not vital - definitely makes him loved by everybody but is a fatal error. It basically says that the Church is not necessary.
Christian Reflections (in ref to Church differences )

Still, to the person who does recognize the importance of the Church, everything such a person says that does not contradict, and indeed, supports the Church may be used in preaching and teaching - as long as the Church is the ultimate guide and arbiter.


I don't actually think that was what Lewis thought at all - that people didn't need the Church. I don't think that he thought it was his calling to bring people to a particular Church, or to the Church. He had opinions about what that was and you can see that in his writing, but he is pretty explicit that he sees himself as filling a particular need as an apologist. People can start with almost nothing and read Lewis and get something real about Christianity out of it (even with the bad religious education most people have now), and that is often not the case with apologists that aim to bring people to a more particular position. Chesterton for example is not nearly as accesable as Lewis. I know some people might argue that is because he is complicated (and therefore better), but to write with the kind of simplicity that is open to almost everyone is actually incredibly difficult.
 
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,404
5,021
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟434,811.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I don't actually think that was what Lewis thought at all - that people didn't need the Church. I don't think that he thought it was his calling to bring people to a particular Church, or to the Church. He had opinions about what that was and you can see that in his writing, but he is pretty explicit that he sees himself as filling a particular need as an apologist. People can start with almost nothing and read Lewis and get something real about Christianity out of it (even with the bad religious education most people have now), and that is often not the case with apologists that aim to bring people to a more particular position. Chesterton for example is not nearly as accesable as Lewis. I know some people might argue that is because he is complicated (and therefore better), but to write with the kind of simplicity that is open to almost everyone is actually incredibly difficult.
Thanks, MKJ,

I do agree with what you say on getting something real
out of Christianity (at large), and think it a good thing.

I don't think that he thought it was his calling to bring people to a particular Church, or to the Church.
This is my point. This IS what I am saying. From an Orthodox perspective, the Church is absolutely essential. Not somewhat essential, or sort of essential, but absolutely essential as in 'cannot be omitted'.
But Lewis's de facto approach - perhaps not his opinion, but I am speaking to his missionary approach, not his private beliefs that he deliberately hid from us - for his own reasons, which he felt to be the good he was doing by avoiding the issue of the Church is indeed that it doesn't matter which church or Church you fall into.

There IS a level of truth in this, on the order of paganism - if a person is truly seeking God, he may well be saved outside the Church (not going into the corollary that being in the Church is not a guaranteed ticket on its own, either), but as soon as one says "Where can I learn about this Christ?" we can offer only one answer, and silence on the issue is "criminal". It is a great wrong.
So I admire the heck (heaven?) out of Lewis; one of the greatest thinkers of our time that truly loved God, but in this one thing he necessarily crosses foils with Orthodoxy by omission. That's why everybody loves him - he appears to offend no one. he was right about that. But what he avoided is just as important to us as what he did open his mouth about. I read and enjoy him immensely, but that characteristic of him sticks out - it was a deliberate sin of omission based on his reason.

Chesterton did not do this. Chesterton realized that the Church - which is it and where it is - is critically important. That's why I consider Chesterton's error the more forgiveable of the two. he did the best he could with what he had. The one thing I think Lewis can be criticized for would not be such criticism if he had honestly promoted the Anglican Church. He could have said exactly what he said everywhere else and not diminished his accessibility by also answering and writing on why he felt the Anglican Church was it (hey, I might have become Anglican instead of Orthodox - he was the first influence on me.), although the changes the Anglican Church has undergone since his time would make it significantly less likely to the external observer that he was right.

So some people wouldn't have read him. They would have said, "Oh, he's just an Anglican apologist." The problem would be in them, and not in him.

So did he do good? - yeah, I think so. Did the good hinge entirely on his avoiding the issue of the Church? Here I don't think so.

Chesterton does require more brains to get the most out of him. It requires remembering what he said in a previous paragraph, and some things you can only get by learning what he is referring to - and that's an entire education in itself. I have learned quite a bit about a great number of topics, and it has changed how I view a number of things. So to a great extent "accessibility" is a matter of having a little patience while reading and doing a little research - now made easier than ever. And the effort is worth it. He stood head and shoulders even above Lewis, and I can see that now. And people do find some of his works directly "accessible" - it would be difficult to explain the popularity of "Orthodoxy" or "The Man who was Thursday" if that were not so.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark46

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,062
4,740
✟837,898.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The discussion of the halls and denominations is in the second column of page 8 of Mere Christianity. Lewis does discuss the importance of choosing a denomination with sound doctrine. He is accepting of denominations (understandable in this imperfect world). His primary goal is bring folks to Christ, not helping them choose which Church is the one true Church.



http://books.google.com/books?id=hZ...m=9&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Upvote 0