Giants in the Bible

[nephilimiyr]

Hi genez!

It's going to be impossible for me to answer all of your post because there is so many places where I disagree. I will do my best

The ones who died in the flood had souls, only. They were not believers! Threfore, they had no spirit.

I believe to make that statement you have to back that up with scripture and I don't believe you can.

The Bible teaches that a human being is made up of body, spirit, and soul. (I love this verse!) Heb. 4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart. The body is the physical part of man, the spirit is the non-physical part, and the soul (Greek is psuche, English is psyche) is the character or personality. When a person dies physically, their spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecc. 12:7, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

However, since the nephilim, the giants, had both physical and spiritual natures, they were able to survive the deaths of their physical bodies. These hybrid spirits, which were not part of God's creation, had nowhere to go when their physical bodies ceased to exist.

Here's what the book of 1 Enoch says. I know this book isn't canon but it does prove to be of great value

Enoch 15:8-12, And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

Ok so the book of Enoch makes it very clear who the evil spirits are and that at the time of the giants death, evil spirits proceeded out of them.

The Lord called this mutant breed found in Genesis 6, "man." Reason? For it is the human soul that God called, "man" (Genesis 1:27). Remember? The invisible soul received no human body in Genesis 1, but until Genesis 2?

This is why understanding the Hebrew is vitally important. The soul was created - bara- "out from nothing" in Genesis 1. The body was formed -yatsar- in Genesis 2. There were two different stages in the creation of Adam.

What God breathed into the nostrils of the body (which was formed and molded from elements of the earth -yatsar) was the soul God had already created "out from nothing", in Genesis 1!

Now... back to Genesis 6. I have heard this theory before. I have. I had to give it much thought over the years. Sorry to say, it does not pan out in the light of what the Word of God teaches. Reason? All of unregenerate mankind is born spiritually dead. With no human spirit. Man is born body and soul.

So, all the unregenerate mutants in Genesis 6 (God calls them men, because they possessed human souls) had no spirits. Therefore, they could not be disembodied "spirits." Humans are souls. At the point of regeneration humans received a human spirit. During the Church age we receive the addition of the Holy Spirit!

Born again = having been given a human spirit. Body, soul, and spirit.

The confusion comes from the Church age saints who now receive also in addition to the human spirit the Holy Spirit to live in us forever. The OT saints did not receive at the point of salvation this factor.

I'm haveing trouble understanding what your saying. Are you saying that untill we became born again we had no spirit? That all non-believers have no spirit? Throughout the Bible humans are said to have spirits. The people in the OT didn't recieve the holy spirit but throughout the OT they are said to have spirits.
Here's a few passages that illistrate this very fact.

2 Kings 2:9, And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

Job 26:4, To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

Psalm 78:8, And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God

Ecclesiastes 3:21, Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Isaiah 26:9, With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Ezekiel 13:3, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

Eze. 18:31, Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
This passage doesn't say God will make them a new heart and give a spirit but make a new spirit. Meaning the person has had a spirit there but God will make them a new one. He will give them the Holy Spirit.

John 7:38-39 niv

"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit,

Yes, the Holy Spirit!
Do you believe in the trinity genez? It sounds like you may not.

whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. OT

The spirit that is not given yet is the Holy Spirit but this does not mean man doesn't have his own human spirit.

saints were given the annointing of the Spirit in order to be enabled to perform a certain act or deed. The Spirit could be removed from them. We are given the Holy Spirit to take up residence FOREVER in us to not only enable actions, but to TRANSFORM us into the likeness of Christ!

Saints are given the annointing of the Holy Spirit, this is what gives us power!
You are makeing the case that instead of God's Holy Spirit living in us we are mearly given spirits. Sorry but I do not accept this and if we are to carry on with this it should be taken to another thread. To discuss this further here will only clog this thread further with unrelated topics, moreso than it is now. Basically, I don't want to get in a long debate over the trinity in this thread. That's of course only if you don't follow the NC.

OT saints only received a human spirit. Body+soul+spirit. The unregenerate man is only body and soul. Genesis 6, speaks of only unregenerate men being destroyed. They had no spirit! They were not born again!

Where does it say the OT saints(?) recieved a human spirit but the pagans did not? And therefore where does it say the nephilim didn't recieve a spirit?

"Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." (Gen 6:3 niv)

God gave mankind 120 years to repent before the flood came. Men have souls, not "spirits." Only angels are called spirits. And, if what you say were true, demons (in the way you describe them) would now all be locked up and not on the earth.

In the Hebrew the English word "strive" that is used in the KJV is 'Diyn' and it means to judge, contend, plead, in the Hebrew. Simply put the passage is saying that God says His Spirit will not always plead with man's spirit.
Gen. 6:3, And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Now why do you suppose the passage says "for that he also is flesh"? Man is not only flesh but spirit also. Since it's God's spirit that is in reference the passage has to mean the "also" makes reference to mans spirit, not soul. And since the first several passages in the chapter is talking not about OT saints but that of the nephilim and the humans they corrupted means the passage teaches all men have spirits. And this includes the nephilim.

These spirits in prison below the earth are the angels who disobeyed God in Genesis 6. Angels are only called "spirits." Not men's souls! The human soul at that time was either was sent to Torments (waiting for hell) , or Paradise (waiting for the cross)... Demons are fallen angels. Only they are spirit beings!

I didn't say mens souls are called spirits?

Matthew 9:33-34 niv

"And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel." But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."

Satan has many names and is the prince of many. Because the Pharisees call him the prince of demons does not mean he is a demon himself. Satan is also called the king of Tyrus, does this mean he is a Tyranian?

 

[LilAngelHeart]

QUOTE=genez--Well, the food of angels sustained human bodies in the wilderness. Right? Then the food had to have matter. Not only that. It had to contain the type of nutrients that nourish the human body! Non materialized beings do not require matter for food. That would be like saying, "dry water." And, if the angels at Abraham's tent ate human food, that too, had to hold properties similar enough for what their bodies needed for nourishment.

Bears do not have the same bodies as men. Right?

Correct, now we are getting somewhere. But bears cannot mate with humans can they? Even though they can eat some of the same things we do and have body mass, a physical body, they are not similar enough to us to mate with us. Which is why I said that even though Angels have bodies, and can eat food, they don't have human bodies.



Yet, men and bears both eat berries and fish.

Now... Do bears eat broiled steak? Broiled steak is human food. Bears eat raw meat. Bears can not cook. Yet, if given human food of broiled steak, the bears will be nourished. Just like in the case, men can eat angel's food.


Exactly! There are things between human and animals that are interchangeable, but we are not similar enough to animals to mate with them. Same thing with Angels, we can eat Angels food anf they can eat ours, but they are not similar enough to us to mate with us.
If we wanted to mate with bears, we would need to manufacture enough Bear DNA to make ourselves compatible with bears. Same thing with Angels.


There would be no sense in eating food that sustains human bodies, that was designed for what would be immaterial bodies of angels. Angels do possess physical bodies which are similar (but not exactly the same as humans) that also require similar nutrients (which is matter) in order to be sustained.

I believe angels have been made to be invisible to men in God's plan, so that angels can do God's work with men without interfering with men's volition by men being conscious of the presence of angels.

In Star Trek? Did the bodies transported by the beaming device become less material after being fully transported? No.

Yes...That is fantasy. Yet, nothing is impossible with God. It should be more than apparent that angels are functioning on a higher plain than we are. Yet, that does not mean they do not possess specialized material bodies. It only means that they have access to powers that we have no understanding of, to keep themselves invisible to man when they so desire.


This I have no problem with. I agree with this part. I'm not saying they don't have bodies, I'm saying they don't have human bodies, the same way that we have bodies but we don't have bear bodies, we have human bodies.





"Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. "

Angels are not the same. BUT! They are very similar. For, they do have similar nutritional requirements to man's structure. If not, men could not have eaten and been nourished in the wilderness by the food of angels.


True, they are similar, just like how humans are similar to monkeys but we can't make babies with them.

We are similar to a lot of species born on the earth yet we can't mate with them so how could we be similar enough to Angels with perfect bodies that live in Heaven enough to mate with them? Angels are not even born, they were made! I don't argue that Angels have bodies or that they are similar to man, I'm just saying they are not close enough to mate with us. They would need a human body to mate with us.

 

[GenemZ]

Hi genez!

It's going to be impossible for me to answer all of your post because there is so many places where I disagree. I will do my best

I believe to make that statement you have to back that up with scripture and I don't believe you can.

The Bible teaches that a human being is made up of body, spirit, and soul.

Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. YES! But? Have we forgotten something?

Adam was told that on the day he ate of the forbidden tree, that on that day, "in dying you will die." (that is what the Hebrew tells us).

Now? When Adam ate? Did he drop dead physically?

Dead bodies do not run and hide and put on fig leaves.


Did God lie?

God told him, on the day he ate that he would surely die.


Adam was created as a son of God. He was spiritually alive!
When Adam ate. Adam died.


SPIRITUALLY!

At that point after he just ate, when he died... Adam had become dichotomous. Body and soul. He was no longer as, body, soul, and spirit. (trichotomous). Adam's perfect body fell, and he took on the sin nature that plagues us all since. The sin nature that entered the world was passed down by Adam through procreation. That is why you and I were born with a sin nature. All because Adam decided to eat the forbidden fruit.

(I love this verse!) Heb. 4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart.

True! That verse was speaking to *born again* believers! The Word is not alive to the unregenerate! He can not discern spiritual matters. Being born again, means one is possessing a human spirit! Just like Adam had come from God's hand as a trichotomous being.

The unbeliever lacks a human spirit. That is why he needs to be born again! For we are all born , body and soul. We must be born again, and become body, soul, and spirit!

The unbeliever is not spiritually alive. He is dead spiritually. That is why Jesus told the young man to "let the dead, bury their own dead."

Dead men (as we think of it in the natural) can not bury another's dead body. Jesus was saying that the "dead" to do the burying were unregenerate, those who were to bury the physically dead body of the one who passed away. Jesus told the young man to let the dead bury the dead, and that this young man should stay and follow Christ!

Spiritually dead = body and soul. No spirit!

That is why it says we were at one time dead in our trespasses! Before we were born again, we were only body and soul. Sin nature body, and soul. All we were, were controlled by the drives of the body which were defective in sin.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit only came after the ascension of Christ. Not before!

Jesus had to first be glorified before the Holy Spirit was to come live inside the believer on a permament basis.

"By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39


Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to know who Jesus is, that person must first be born again! Body, soul, and spirit! Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again before the Holy Spirit was to be given! Old Testament saints could know of the things of God because they were born again. Nicodemus was still living in the age of Israel! The Church age had not yet begun. Jesus was telling him, right then, that he needed to become born again. To be made spiritually alive. At that point Nicodemus was yet body and soul.

Example of OT saint being born again?

Peter was born again before the Church age began. That is why Jesus told him...

Matthew 16

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Peter had believed in, "Adonay Elohenu" ... Peter had already believed in the true Lord of Israel. He was born again. Later on, after Jesus was glorified, then Peter's born again status was transformed into becoming a new creation in Christ! At that point he became body, soul, spirit, PLUS! The additional gift of the Holy Spirit (to make us to be in unison with Christ!)

Being born again was simply being made spiritually alive, as Adam was created spiritually alive. Adam was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit! We are in a another dimension than what Adam was before the fall. We are now a NEW CREATION... a new spiritual species... in Christ Jesus!

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! " (2 Corinthians 5:17 niv)

The Greek words, "new creation" ... means, something that never existed before. It does not mean, "renewal". It means something totally unique and never done before. The Church age created a new meaning and purpose to the term, "born again." Those who are born again during the Church age are different from the OT saints who were also born again.


Moses and David were born again. But! They were not a new creation in Christ! Only we have been chosen before the foundations of the earth to be in Christ Jesus! The Holy Spirit was not given to OT saints at the point of their salvation. They were made trichotomous.. body, soul, and spirit.... BUT! The Holy Spirit was given to all believers only after the point of Jesus being glorified after his ascension.

"By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

The body is the physical part of man, the spirit is the non-physical part, and the soul (Greek is psuche, English is psyche) is the character or personality. When a person dies physically, their spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecc. 12:7, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Bible says (in the KJV) that "the natural man" can not know the things of God.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. " (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Natural man, should be rendered from the Greek.. The 'psuchekos man'... The soulishman! = having only body and soul! Soulish!
Soul and spirit are not the same things. We are all born "naturally", body and soul. We all need to be born again. Made spiritually alive.

And, as you also stated...

Ecc. 12:7, Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The word spirit here in context can at times mean "breath. " The word is used to mean breath at times. For this same book also spoke just before that passage, of the "spirit" of animals, too.

Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? "

Animals are not born again. Nor can they be. They do not possess eternal life. Yet, they all have breath. God gave Adam "the breath of lives," (in Hebrew - it does not say he simply breathed into his nostrils. It is in the plural! Lives! )

Plural? Breath of lives? God breathed into Adam both physical and spiritual life. This is something many of us are never told when we are being taught from mere translations. The Hebrew reveals a plurality of lives being breathed into Adam!

Each and everyone of us is given breath of life from God. "Ne Shama!" The spark of life... Those who are not, are stillborn. (but, this is another topic, for another day).

Though physically alive at birth, yet we are all born spiritually dead. All born in need of salvation. To be born again... spiritually.

First birth is physical life. The second birth is spiritual life. We must be born again! If we are born trichotomous? Body soul, and spirit? Then there would be no need to be born again. But, we are all born spiritually dead!

"Let the dead bury their own dead."

Remember that confusing passage? We were all at one time dead in our trespasses! Now we were made alive... spiritually! We became "born again!"

However, since the nephilim, the giants, had both physical and spiritual natures, they were able to survive the deaths of their physical bodies. These hybrid spirits, which were not part of God's creation, had nowhere to go when their physical bodies ceased to exist.

So, a mule is a hybrid? That is not a part of God's creation? God is omniscient! He always knew what is to be. When he made creation he knew that interbreeding was to be possible between certain species of creation. He could have prevented it. Yet, he always knew it would be. It is a part of God's plan for creation.

I will stop here. There is already plenty on the plate for everyone needing to first digest. Already caused a tummy ache for a few in another post. So, I must stick with one topic and make it clear before we move on. Questions? Challenges?

LET'S EAT! Grace and peace, Gene

 

[GenemZ]

Correct, now we are getting somewhere. But bears cannot mate with humans can they? Even though they can eat some of the same things we do and have body mass, a physical body, they are not similar enough to us to mate with us. Which is why I said that even though Angels have bodies, and can eat food, they don't have human bodies.

Of course bears can not breed with humans. But, horses can breed with donkeys! That is were we get a mule or hinny.

" You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor." (Hebrews 2:7 niv)

The Bible says that the angels were created only a little higher than man. Horses and donkeys have little difference, as well.

You were confusing apples with acorns. I have been dealing with oranges and tangerines.

Some creatures can be interbred. Genesis 6, reveals that the bodies angels possess are not greatly different from human bodies. It is the power sphere from God, that they have access to, that makes them vitally different from man in function.
Grace and peace, Gene

 

[PottersClay]

At that point after he just ate, when he died... Adam had become dichotomous. Body and soul. He was no longer as, body, soul, and spirit. (trichotomous). Adam's perfect body fell, and he took on the sin nature that plagues us all since. The sin nature that entered the world was passed down by Adam through procreation. That is why you and I were born with a sin nature. All because Adam decided to eat the forbidden fruit.

I dont know if that it's accurate to say Adam became dichotomous. Adam did not lose his spirit, it was simply separated from God.

All throughout Scripture, unless specifically describing natural, physical death, the word "dead" is used to describe separation. "We are dead [separated] in our trespasses and sins". (powerlessness and inability are also depicted by the word "dead", and it would be just as accurate to say "we are powerless in our tresspasses and sins")

Anyway, at the fall, Adam's spirit was severed from the source of Life, which is why in dying, he died (he could not be separated from the source of life without his body also eventually dying). But his spirit didnt go away, it just got disconnected. If it had gone away, his offspring would be born without a spirit and there would have been no way we would have the ability to sense God drawing us back to Him since it is through our spirits that God communicates with us.

Instead, we remain trichotomous, but our spirit is in a disconnected state. At rebirth, our spirit is reconnected to Life, Himself. If you look at Scripture, you'll see that just as the word "dead" depicts separation, the word "alive" is used to depict unity or being joined ("we are alive [joined] together with Christ)

 

[LilAngelHeart]

QUOTE=genez--

Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. YES! But? Have we forgotten something?

Adam was told that on the day he ate of the forbidden tree, that on that day, "in dying you will die." (that is what the Hebrew tells us).

Now? When Adam ate? Did he drop dead physically?

Dead bodies do not run and hide and put on fig leaves.


Did God lie?

God told him, on the day he ate that he would surely die.


Adam was created as a son of God. He was spiritually alive!
When Adam ate. Adam died.


SPIRITUALLY!

At that point after he just ate, when he died... Adam had become dichotomous. Body and soul. He was no longer as, body, soul, and spirit. (trichotomous). Adam's perfect body fell, and he took on the sin nature that plagues us all since. The sin nature that entered the world was passed down by Adam through procreation. That is why you and I were born with a sin nature. All because Adam decided to eat the forbidden fruit.




True! That verse was speaking to *born again* believers! The Word is not alive to the unregenerate! He can not discern spiritual matters. Being born again, means one is possessing a human spirit! Just like Adam had come from God's hand as a trichotomous being.

The unbeliever lacks a human spirit. That is why he needs to be born again! For we are all born , body and soul. We must be born again, and become body, soul, and spirit!

The unbeliever is not spiritually alive. He is dead spiritually. That is why Jesus told the young man to "let the dead, bury their own dead."

Dead men (as we think of it in the natural) can not bury another's dead body. Jesus was saying that the "dead" to do the burying were unregenerate, those who were to bury the physically dead body of the one who passed away. Jesus told the young man to let the dead bury the dead, and that this young man should stay and follow Christ!

Spiritually dead = body and soul. No spirit!

That is why it says we were at one time dead in our trespasses! Before we were born again, we were only body and soul. Sin nature body, and soul. All we were, were controlled by the drives of the body which were defective in sin.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit only came after the ascension of Christ. Not before!

Jesus had to first be glorified before the Holy Spirit was to come live inside the believer on a permament basis.

"By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39


Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to know who Jesus is, that person must first be born again! Body, soul, and spirit! Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again before the Holy Spirit was to be given! Old Testament saints could know of the things of God because they were born again. Nicodemus was still living in the age of Israel! The Church age had not yet begun. Jesus was telling him, right then, that he needed to become born again. To be made spiritually alive. At that point Nicodemus was yet body and soul.

Example of OT saint being born again?

Peter was born again before the Church age began. That is why Jesus told him...

Matthew 16

16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Peter had believed in, "Adonay Elohenu" ... Peter had already believed in the true Lord of Israel. He was born again. Later on, after Jesus was glorified, then Peter's born again status was transformed into becoming a new creation in Christ! At that point he became body, soul, spirit, PLUS! The additional gift of the Holy Spirit (to make us to be in unison with Christ!)

Being born again was simply being made spiritually alive, as Adam was created spiritually alive. Adam was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit! We are in a another dimension than what Adam was before the fall. We are now a NEW CREATION... a new spiritual species... in Christ Jesus!

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! " (2 Corinthians 5:17 niv)

The Greek words, "new creation" ... means, something that never existed before. It does not mean, "renewal". It means something totally unique and never done before. The Church age created a new meaning and purpose to the term, "born again." Those who are born again during the Church age are different from the OT saints who were also born again.


Moses and David were born again. But! They were not a new creation in Christ! Only we have been chosen before the foundations of the earth to be in Christ Jesus! The Holy Spirit was not given to OT saints at the point of their salvation. They were made trichotomous.. body, soul, and spirit.... BUT! The Holy Spirit was given to all believers only after the point of Jesus being glorified after his ascension.

"By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.



The Bible says (in the KJV) that "the natural man" can not know the things of God.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. " (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Natural man, should be rendered from the Greek.. The 'psuchekos man'... The soulishman! = having only body and soul! Soulish!
Soul and spirit are not the same things. We are all born "naturally", body and soul. We all need to be born again. Made spiritually alive.

And, as you also stated...



The word spirit here in context can at times mean "breath. " The word is used to mean breath at times. For this same book also spoke just before that passage, of the "spirit" of animals, too.

Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? "

Animals are not born again. Nor can they be. They do not possess eternal life. Yet, they all have breath. God gave Adam "the breath of lives," (in Hebrew - it does not say he simply breathed into his nostrils. It is in the plural! Lives! )

Plural? Breath of lives? God breathed into Adam both physical and spiritual life. This is something many of us are never told when we are being taught from mere translations. The Hebrew reveals a plurality of lives being breathed into Adam!

Each and everyone of us is given breath of life from God. "Ne Shama!" The spark of life... Those who are not, are stillborn. (but, this is another topic, for another day).

Though physically alive at birth, yet we are all born spiritually dead. All born in need of salvation. To be born again... spiritually.

First birth is physical life. The second birth is spiritual life. We must be born again! If we are born trichotomous? Body soul, and spirit? Then there would be no need to be born again. But, we are all born spiritually dead!

"Let the dead bury their own dead."

Remember that confusing passage? We were all at one time dead in our trespasses! Now we were made alive... spiritually! We became "born again!"

Okay I can somewhat agree with what you have written here, only difference is that I believe when Adam's spirit died, when he died spiritually, his spirit didn't disappear, it just remained in him but dead. When we accept Jesus into our hearts our spirit is brought back to life. Everyone is born with a spirit, soul and body, but until they are born again, thier spirit is in them but in a dead state until they accept Jesus.

The offspring of the fallen angels had a spirit because because the fallen angels were spirits and humans have a spirit, the children of the fallen angels had evil spirits though, they did not have the spirit that God breathed into Adam, so they were not from God's spirit they were from the fallen angels spirit so they were evil spirits. They can't /couldn't be reborn because they did not come from God's spirit, they are born of the devil's spirit, they are littile devils. So when their bodies died, they became bodyless spirits. Demons with nowhere to go. They couldn't go to God because they were not from God, so they are just stuck here until judgement when they will then go to hell with the devil and his fallen angels.




So, a mule is a hybrid? That is not a part of God's creation? God is omniscient! He always knew what is to be. When he made creation he knew that interbreeding was to be possible between certain species of creation. He could have prevented it. Yet, he always knew it would be. It is a part of God's plan for creation.

The hybrids created by the fallen angels were not a part of God's creation though. God never made it possible for humans and angles to interbreed,(lucifer did that when he made human DNA for himself) so those demonic spirits were never a part of God's plan. That's why they are lost and wander the earth without a body and nowhere to go till judgement when they will then go to hell. They were not God's creation and were never supposed to exist.
Animals can interbreed because God mad them that way. Animals don't have sprits though, which is why God made it so that humans and animals can't interbreed because we have spirit, soul, and body, animals just have a body and soul.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

LilAngelHeart & Nephelimiyr,
Theres no way I can keep up with this thread! I come home from work and theres just pages & pages. Lotsa good stuff, but I'm way behind here. Sorry. Guess I'll have to just stay with what I originally posted on this thread.
I've heard about the demons being disembodied spirits of the Nephelim though. Some say they are that, and others say they are fallen angels. Could be both. By that I mean that theres 2 (or perhaps even more) different classes of "demons" or evil spirits. There are also spirits sealed in the earth, in a spirit prison.
Bottom line is, all of these entities are up to no good!

LOL!!! It's okay Starcrystal, I understand.

And like you said, bottom line is they are all up to no good! LOL!

 

[GenemZ]

Instead, we remain trichotomous, but our spirit is in a disconnected state. At rebirth, our spirit is reconnected to Life, Himself. If you look at Scripture, you'll see that just as the word "dead" depicts separation, the word "alive" is used to depict unity or being joined ("we are alive [joined] together with Christ)

Where do you get that from? The body without the soul is dead. The person without the human spirit is spiritually dead. I did give Scripture to show man is only body and soul when he is unregenerate. At least I gave Scripture. You seem to be simply giving opinion based upon what you assume, or feel it to be.

Adam died. It does not say he was cut off, yet remained alive. If it did say that, then some would have done some figuring and would have figured it out. But it does not say that. It says he was to die, not be separated.

Yet, because we are all born spiritually dead, as a result, we are automatically cut off from spiritual relationship with God. But, the natural man is only "soulish". He does not have the spirit. The NIV scholars grasped what the Greek was indicating and supplied a translation with what was meant in the following translation...


"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. " (1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

The word translated "natural man" in the KJV is not a literal translation, either! The Greek word, "psukekos" (where we get the word psychic from)means "soulish."

Now? Did Adam die spiritually? Or, was he simply cut off from fellowship? If he was cut off, then your concept will work. But, like the body without the soul, is dead. So, is one spiritually dead without the human spirit.

" but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

Die. Not, be sent to his room without dinner.

Grace and peace, Gene

 

[GenemZ]

I dont know if that it's accurate to say Adam became dichotomous. Adam did not lose his spirit, it was simply separated from God.

All throughout Scripture, unless specifically describing natural, physical death, the word "dead" is used to describe separation. "We are dead [separated] in our trespasses and sins". (powerlessness and inability are also depicted by the word "dead", and it would be just as accurate to say "we are powerless in our tresspasses and sins")

Anyway, at the fall, Adam's spirit was severed from the source of Life, which is why in dying, he died (he could not be separated from the source of life without his body also eventually dying). But his spirit didnt go away, it just got disconnected. If it had gone away, his offspring would be born without a spirit and there would have been no way we would have the ability to sense God drawing us back to Him since it is through our spirits that God
communicates with us.

All throughout Scripture, unless specifically describing natural, physical death, the word "dead" is used to describe separation.

Why does it have to mean separation? And, not death? Death causes separation, yes. But, separation does not have to cause death. A person in a coma is not dead. Yet, he is separated from humanity. But, once the soul leaves the body? Then he is dead.

Instead, we remain trichotomous, but our spirit is in a disconnected state.

Chapter and verse, please? I have read the same Bible, and never came across that.

At rebirth, our spirit is reconnected to Life, Himself.

You know? That sounds good! It makes one feel all warm inside. But is it truth?

When you were born? Were you reconnected to your mother? Likewise, what you are telling me makes no sense. What I suspect, you have been taught by someone who has given answers that you never questioned before because you simply respect that person's authority. Sounds like the case. But, I realize there are potentially many other possible reasons.

If you look at Scripture, you'll see that just as the word "dead" depicts separation, the word "alive" is used to depict unity or being joined ("we are alive [joined] together with Christ)

It appears to me that you are failing to realize that you are in union with Christ even if you live the rest of your life in sin.

There is the sin onto death mentioned in the Bible. It is for those who live in a habitual lifestyle of sin after they are saved.

"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that." 1 John 5:16 niv

He could die the sin onto death. Yet! If he does... He will be in Heaven after he dies (but with no rewards).

"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss;[I] he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. " [/I] 1 Cor 3:12-15 niv
"

The reason he will be saved? We all became "in union" with Christ at the point of salvation. If the Protocol son never returned, he would have still have remained a son to his father. Once you are born again you are family of God. You can not lose your salvation.

If you look at Scripture, you'll see that just as the word "dead" depicts separation, the word "alive" is used to depict unity or being joined ("we are alive [joined] together with Christ)

If you look closer, you will see that the death caused the separation, not the other way around. If you sin, you are cut off from the fellowship with God. When you sinned would you become spiritually dead? No... In this case your spirit in inactivated. To get back into fellowship you need to acknowledge your sin.

" If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 niv

Now, if what you said were true... anytime an unbeliever acknowledged his sin, at that moment he would be born again.

Flesh begets flesh... and Spirit begets spirit! That is how Jesus described being born again.

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:6 niv

Is a woman getting pregnant a process of activating an existing fetus in her womb? You are saying that being born again is an activating of our inactive spirit. That could not be a cause of a birth. Fertilization (creation of a human body) is the cause of birth. Being "born of the Spirit" is the Holy Spirit producing a human spirit!

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

Grace and peace, Gene

 

[PottersClay]

Why does it have to mean separation? And, not death? Death causes separation, yes. But, separation does not have to cause death. A person in a coma is not dead. Yet, he is separated from humanity. But, once the soul leaves the body? Then he is dead.

Acutally, you just made my point. Separation does not have to cause death, in fact, the majority of the time you see the word dead or death used, it's in the figurative/spiritual sense and it's referring to being separated from (what is death, besides separation from our bodies?)

In Genesis, as you pointed out, it does translate "in dying you will die." which is a very clear picture of what happened. Adam was severed spiritually from God, who is Life (in dying) and that set into motion his eventual physical death (you will die)

Chapter and verse, please? I have read the same Bible, and never came across that.

Hu? Where do you find that our spirit leaves? (which would reduce us from trichotomous to dichotomous) I was simply saying that our spirit being in a dormant or disconnected state does not mean it's no longer there. If it werent, there would be no spirit to born of the Spirit by.

You know? That sounds good! It makes one feel all warm inside. But is it truth?

When you were born? Were you reconnected to your mother? Likewise, what you are telling me makes no sense.

Hu? What does when i was born and being reconnected to my mother (?!?) have anything to do with anything?

If i made no, sense, however, it's most likely because there are some things that I find difficult to explain. Let me try again... when we are born again, the Spirit of God (who is Life) is joined to our spirit. That is the new birth. That was what I so ineptly referred to as "reconnection" simply because that's the picture I see. I didnt mean to confuse you.

What I suspect, you have been taught by someone who has given answers that you never questioned before because you simply respect that person's authority. Sounds like the case. But, I realize there are potentially many other possible reasons.

Now that, couldnt be further from the truth. I recently left a church because they discouraged people from searching out Scripture to make sure what was being taught was correct.

Ironically, I was having this discussion with a group of people just the other day. This is what I told them: The Lord always requires me to know why I believe what I believe. If the only answer I can come up with is "this is what I heard or was taught" it's not good enough.

It appears to me that you are failing to realize that you are in union with Christ even if you live the rest of your life in sin.

It think you misunderstood what I was trying to say (my fault again, I'm sure)

I was trying to explain the usage of the words "alive" and "dead". If you're still skeptical, go through the book of Romans, for instance, and wherever you see the word dead, if you use the word "separated" (or "separate"), "powerless", or "inability", you'll see that it makes what the writer was trying to communicate in the passage much clearer. Same with "alive" if you use "joined", "ability" or "power".

If you look closer, you will see that the death caused the separation, not the other way around.

How so? If my soul/spirit leaves my body, I die, right? Was it my death that caused my soul/spirit to leave my body? No, it is my soul/spirit leaving my body [separation] that causes the death.

If you sin, you are cut off from the fellowship with God. When you sinned would you become spiritually dead? No... In this case your spirit in inactivated. To get back into fellowship you need to acknowledge your sin.

" If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 niv

Now, if what you said were true... anytime an unbeliever acknowledged his sin, at that moment he would be born again.

I disagree with your premise here. If I sin, yes, there is a degree of separation that comes, but I am not separated from Him in the same way I was separated from Him before I was born again. I have just created the kind of separation that happens if I offend a loved one, and until that is made right, full intimacy is hindered.

Flesh begets flesh... and Spirit begets spirit! That is how Jesus described being born again.

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:6 niv

Is a woman getting pregnant a process of activating an existing fetus in her womb? You are saying that being born again is an activating of our inactive spirit. That could not be a cause of a birth. Fertilization (creation of a human body) is the cause of birth. Being "born of the Spirit" is the Holy Spirit producing a human spirit!

I'm not sure where you get that the Holy Spirit is creating our spirit at rebirth, but I assume it has to do with your belief about us losing our trichotomy.

I'm afraid I dont see any support for that. Our spirit is how God communicates with us. If we were born without a spirit, we would never have the ability to perceive Him drawing us.

At the time of rebirth, God again breathes the breath of Life into our inabled, dormant spirit much the same way He breathed life into Adam. The breath He breathes into us is the Holy Spirit (Spirit, in the Greek is Pneuma, from which we get words like pneumatic)

So, that is my second feeble attempt at explaining myself. I hope I made myself a little clearer.

Peace,
PottersClay

 

[GenemZ]

Potters...

Enjoy what you believe...

Moving on.


Grace and peace, Gene

 

[PottersClay]

Potters...

Enjoy what you believe...

Gene,

You are obviously a mature man of God. Such sarcasm is neither necessary, and it is beneath you.

In Peace,
PottersClay

 

[/00\]

Okay I can somewhat agree with what you have written here, only difference is that I believe when Adam's spirit died, when he died spiritually, his spirit didn't disappear, it just remained in him but dead. When we accept Jesus into our hearts our spirit is brought back to life. Everyone is born with a spirit, soul and body, but until they are born again, thier spirit is in them but in a dead state until they accept Jesus.

The offspring of the fallen angels had a spirit because because the fallen angels were spirits and humans have a spirit, the children of the fallen angels had evil spirits though, they did not have the spirit that God breathed into Adam, so they were not from God's spirit they were from the fallen angels spirit so they were evil spirits. They can't /couldn't be reborn because they did not come from God's spirit, they are born of the devil's spirit, they are littile devils. So when their bodies died, they became bodyless spirits. Demons with nowhere to go. They couldn't go to God because they were not from God, so they are just stuck here until judgement when they will then go to hell with the devil and his fallen angels.

The hybrids created by the fallen angels were not a part of God's creation though. God never made it possible for humans and angles to interbreed,(lucifer did that when he made human DNA for himself) so those demonic spirits were never a part of God's plan. That's why they are lost and wander the earth without a body and nowhere to go till judgement when they will then go to hell. They were not God's creation and were never supposed to exist.
Animals can interbreed because God mad them that way. Animals don't have sprits though, which is why God made it so that humans and animals can't interbreed because we have spirit, soul, and body, animals just have a body and soul.

Well, in science this would be referred to as "pseudo-science." I am not very familiar with biblical text but there appears to be a "pseudo-scripture" counterpart. "DNA" is a buzz term made popular after the OJ Simpson trial that has become dinner conversation because of CSI television shows. Where is the foundation for these scientific theories? Where is the scripture to support your interpretation?

This area of the forum is supposed to be an... "Outreach: This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates." ...for discussing scripture and Christainity with non-Christians. This is a well thought out website and there surely must be a section for Christians to hash out their opinion and theory with other Christians so familiar with scripture that do not need to see the quote. Everyone can learn and benefit from everything being discussed in this thread only if scripture is provided when you are referencing it.

Thank you.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

Well, in science this would be referred to as "pseudo-science." I am not very familiar with biblical text but there appears to be a "pseudo-scripture" counterpart. "DNA" is a buzz term made popular after the OJ Simpson trial that has become dinner conversation because of CSI television shows. Where is the foundation for these scientific theories? Where is the scripture to support your interpretation?

This area of the forum is supposed to be an... "Outreach: This forum is for non-believers seeking to know more about Christianity. This forum is NOT for Apologetics or debates." ...for discussing scripture and Christainity with non-Christians. This is a well thought out website and there surely must be a section for Christians to hash out their opinion and theory with other Christians so familiar with scripture that do not need to see the quote. Everyone can learn and benefit from everything being discussed in this thread only if scripture is provided when you are referencing it.

Thank you.

Hmmm...I don't understand what it is that you seem to have a problem with. This thread is going along as it should. What kind of scriptures do you need quoted? No one is debating here, we are just discussing.

 

[/00\]

Hmmm...I don't understand what it is that you seem to have a problem with. This thread is going along as it should. What kind of scriptures do you need quoted? No one is debating here, we are just discussing.

This is a section of the forum with non-Christians, novice-Christians and would-be Christians with sincere questions and interest. You have repeatedly referred to scripture and have yet to provide a single quote or footnote to support your interpretation. Why is it so difficult for you to understand the value in backing up your ideas with scriptural text? It appears that you do not have the knowledge and are making loose generalizations.

 

[Starcrystal]

LilAngelHeart,
LOL!!! It's okay Starcrystal, I understand.

And like you said, bottom line is they are all up to no good! LOL!

Thanks, because here we go again! Theres like 3 full pages and I have to get ready for work. Simply no time to read through all this stuff, but I'd love to....
I have to grab bits & pieces of what you all post.

 

[LilAngelHeart]

This is a section of the forum with non-Christians, novice-Christians and would-be Christians with sincere questions and interest. You have repeatedly referred to scripture and have yet to provide a single quote or footnote to support your interpretation. Why is it so difficult for you to understand the value in backing up your ideas with scriptural text? It appears that you do not have the knowledge and are making loose generalizations.

Okay well back quote me a specific thing I've written and I'll be happy to provide scripture for it.

 

[GenemZ]

Gene,

You are obviously a mature man of God. Such sarcasm is neither necessary, and it is beneath you.

In Peace,
PottersClay

Sir... you only offered opinions with absolutely NO Scriptural backup. I gave you Scripture which you flat out rejected because your cherished way of thinking was not going to budge. Fine with me. So, I moved on.

FYI... Paul was very sarcastic in the Greek, by the way. Reason? Same type of things. And, I was not consciously attempting to be that way with you, and I am not sure I was being that way. I was just moving on.
Simply put, I wished not to argue over what you have so easily rejected. You are not my servant. I am not your Lord. My job is to present what I had. You are free to accept, or reject. I observed your mind set, and decided it best not to argue the point any further.

Moving on... GeneZ

 

[sawdust]

Hi Genez,

I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying. (I hope at least)

I have been trying to see in my mind what an unregenerate man looks like as you have described with "no spirit". The best I can do is as follows:

When I was a little girl and my father (earthly father that is) was still alive, every night he would sit in his armchair and watch the news on tv. Sometimes I would climb into his lap and snuggle up with him. At other times I would sit on his feet and he would hold my hands and give me "horsey rides". I loved those times. At one stage he had a heart attack and they would not let me see him for 3 weeks. He was there in his bedroom ... I knew he was there..but it was like he was dead. But then one day he truly died and the comparison between the two, that is being separated from him and he being dead, is vastly different.

I'm not sure I can express that difference in words but now he is dead, there is no lap to snuggle in, there are no feet to sit on, there are no hands to hold me, there is nothing, no-one, no-body. Ok, now that thought has brought unbidden tears. It's been almost 30 years since he died and I still miss him terribly.

In separation they were there, even though I couldn't reach them, but in death.....

So, to get back to the picture of unregenerate man...there is no spirit within..... "spiritually dead in our sin".

Am I seeing what you are trying to say?

 

[LilAngelHeart]

Hi Sawdust

That's a good way of seeing it. I guess people see spiritual death in different ways. Some see it as a man having no spirit whatsoever until and unless he gets saved. I don't see it that way, I see it as the person's spirit being there, just in a dead state. Not alive but there. Kinda like a paralized arm someone may have, it's there, but it's dead because it doesn't move or have life but it is there, connected to the body that does have life. An amputated arm is not dead, it's just gone period. It can't be brought back to life because it's gone, completely removed, permanently. I see being spiritually dead as someone with a paralized arm that is brought to life when they accept Jesus. A spiritual death where the person's spirit is nonexistent is not a spiritual death to me, how can something be dead that never existed, that you were never born with?

I see people as being born with a spirit, soul and body, but the spirit is just in a dead state, like being born with two arms but one is in a dead state. When you accept God the arm comes to life. Being born without a spirit is like being born with only one arm. The other arm is not dead, it's noexistent, how can something be dead that never existed, that you were never born with? To be in a spiritually dead state means that your spirit exists but is dead. You can't have a dead plant in your house or dead flowers or dead anything that you never actually had. If you never had it or was born without it, it never existed. You can't be reborn spiritually if your spirit was never born in the first place. You have to be born with a spirit in order to be reborn spiritually. Does this help?

Your father is dead because he was born, if he had never been born, he wouldn't be dead right now, he would be non existent and so would you!