Getting Saved and All That...

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,088
6,092
North Carolina
✟276,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, all of that. We can differentiate between creation and recreation, but it is all one divine intention. The Augustinian idea that everything was perfect, and then not perfect makes it seem like God flubbed the first try and will get it right on the second try. I'm more inclined to Irenaeus's notion that creatures, by necessity, must begin less than perfect and come to perfection by a process of maturity.

If, however, any one say, "What then? Could not God have exhibited man as perfect from beginning?" let him know that, inasmuch as God is indeed always the same and unbegotten as respects Himself, all things are possible to Him. But created things must be inferior to Him who created them, from the very fact of their later origin; for it was not possible for things recently created to have been uncreated. But inasmuch as they are not uncreated, for this very reason do they come short of the perfect. Because, as these things are of later date, so are they infantile; so are they unaccustomed to, and unexercised in, perfect discipline. For as it certainly is in the power of a mother to give strong food to her infant, [but she does not do so], as the child is not yet able to receive more substantial nourishment; so also it was possible for God Himself to have made man perfect from the first, but man could not receive this [perfection], being as yet an infant. And for this cause our Lord in these last times, when He had summed up all things into Himself, came to us, not as He might have come, but as we were capable of beholding Him. He might easily have come to us in His immortal glory, but in that case we could never have endured the greatness of the glory; and therefore it was that He, who was the perfect bread of the Father, offered Himself to us as milk, [because we were] as infants. He did this when He appeared as a man, that we, being nourished, as it were, from the breast of His flesh, and having, by such a course of milk nourishment, become accustomed to eat and drink the Word of God, may be able also to contain in ourselves the Bread of immortality, which is the Spirit of the Father.

Why Man was not Made Perfect from the Beginning.
How about this notion:

The NT reveals that God chooses to show forth his glory through the glorification of his Son, who with his own life shall purchase from condemned mankind (Romans 5:18) a remnant to be God's own personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18) and treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17); i.e., the church, which is his body, the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting himself incomplete (!) without his inheritance and treasure.

If that doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is a school of Protestant thought. The whole thing seems absurd to this Catholic who doesn’t know how to separate my Lord from my Savior.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that from the Catholic perspective, salvation is a result of lordship, whereas from a Protestant perspective lordship is a result of salvation.

And really, to dig into this we would need to define the terms salvation and lordship. And especially how these things are measured. On what basis can a person say they are saved? On what basis can a person claim Jesus as Lord?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Early in the video Enns referred to life transformation. There are saints throughout human history that never heard of Jesus. And yet, they live like Jesus, they love like Jesus, they give like Jesus, they follow him unwittingly, I suppose. That is exactly what Christians are supposed to do, i.e. be like Christ. The mistaken notion that mere belief in a doctrine is life transforming, or at least sufficient if it isn't, couldn't be more mistaken. And I think the modern era has encouraged this wrong-headed kind of thinking.
Great post, thanks.
I like what you are saying here about a life transformation. And I tend to mark salvation as a transformative event. (although for some it is more gradual than that) But many, myself included, can remember the moment when it happened. When it was received. And the transformative process began. A decision to believe God and to follow Christ.

I want to hear how others view this, of course. This perspective comes from my Evangelical Protestant upbringing. My experience was different than many others. More personal. Not just an intellectual decision.

I like to point out the oft confused terms repentance and confession. Many will use the word repent when they meant confess. I think the transformative aspect of repentance (to turn) is critical in understanding the difference. And I see the turning aspect as a 180. Both away from something and toward something else. In the context of this topic, away from sin toward righteousness, or away from self-reliance and toward God.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,257
16,107
Flyoverland
✟1,233,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that from the Catholic perspective, salvation is a result of lordship, whereas from a Protestant perspective lordship is a result of salvation.
I would say that is a common perception. But at least personally I find the distinction is a problem simply because it is polemical, and because it allows some people to reject Jesus as their Lord because that is seen as too Catholic. Similar to people who reject baptism because it is a ‘work’. I’m not saying most Protestants will do that, but some.
And really, to dig into this we would need to define the terms salvation and lordship. And especially how these things are measured. On what basis can a person say they are saved? On what basis can a person claim Jesus as Lord?
Good questions. The priority of grace is essential because we can’t even begin the process of being saved or of being a bondservant to the Lord without grace.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,088
6,092
North Carolina
✟276,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The evangelical emphasis on personal salvation sorely neglects the fact that Christ is cosmic Lord and Savior. The Logos through whom all things are created is the same Logos through whom all things are being reconciled to God. God is not just saving some humans from sin and hell, but all creation from finitude and corruption of which evil is a contributing factor. So, it's not primarily about heaven and hell. It's about God fulfilling what God set out to create, i.e. a good creation. That, I think, should be the primary framework through which we think about this, and not whether someone claims to believe a doctrine in order to go to heaven. How personal salvation and eternal destiny figure into that framework has its place, but it should be secondary and appropriately qualified.
Early in the video Enns referred to life transformation. There are saints throughout human history that never heard of Jesus. And yet, they live like Jesus, they love like Jesus, they give like Jesus, they follow him unwittingly, I suppose. That is exactly what Christians are supposed to do, i.e. be like Christ. The mistaken notion that mere belief in a doctrine is life transforming, or at least sufficient if it isn't, couldn't be more mistaken. And I think the modern era has encouraged this wrong-headed kind of thinking.

Throughout most of human history, the pursuit of wisdom was never separated from the pursuit of a certain way of living. After the Enlightenment, intellectual assent took on a life of its own. Wisdom was not so much a way of life, but the ability to have clear and distinct ideas (Descartes) or ideas that agree (Locke). The ancients never separated knowledge of the good from participation in it. Socrates went so far as to say that if one knew the good thing to do one would do it, and if they didn't do the good thing that was an indication they didn't know what it was. That sounds strange to us, because we assume knowledge and doing are two different things. John says something very similar as Socrates when he says if you know God then you love, if you don't love you don't know God.

In the modern era we have separated knowledge (wisdom) from how we live. You can see this at the beginning of the last century when certain groups within the Christian community make the basis for Christian belief not adherence to faithful living, but adherence to a set of fundamentals that must be believed for salvation. Knowledge (pseudo-wisdom) and living become separate things. You see the same effect in modern philosophy with the much debated question, "Can one be an ethicist without adhering to the ethics they prescribe?" That question only makes sense in a context in which people put forward beliefs that have no bearing on how they live, lol.
That needs a little unpacking.

You do realize that it's not belief in a doctrine that is life transforming, but belief in the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," sanctified, that is life transforming, right?

And if we are going to be true to what both Jesus and the NT teaches, there is no salvation without saving faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:18, John 3:36).
A perfect life of love without faith in Jesus Christ does not save, for that is simply salvation by works, which the NT denies (Ephesians 2:8-9). We don't know the real reason for the practice of such people, whether it was about God or self.
That having been said, those who know nothing of Jesus, however, do know of God from creation alone (Romans 1:18-20) and, if their intent was to serve the living God according to their conscience, then they would be saved, for they made the only God they knew of also their Lord.

But let's not ascribe salvation where the NT denies it, right?
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Site Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My take on this is a person cannot divide Christ into categories. He is LORD, God, Savior, Redeemer etc……

So as Lord we are under His Lordship. It’s why Paul in Romans 10 declares one must confess/agree Christ is Lord to be saved. Romans 10:9-13. Jesus makes the point that why do you call Me Lord Lord and do not obey my commands. Lordship begins at Salvation.

hope this helps !!!
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would say that is a common perception. But at least personally I find the distinction is a problem simply because it is polemical, and because it allows some people to reject Jesus as their Lord because that is seen as too Catholic. Similar to people who reject baptism because it is a ‘work’. I’m not saying most Protestants will do that, but some.

Good questions. The priority of grace is essential because we can’t even begin the process of being saved or of being a bondservant to the Lord without grace.
Again, the view of salvation in Protestantism is very binary and front-loaded. It happens at the beginning of the process and you either are saved or you aren't. (not waiting for the judgment to find out) We do argue about whether salvation can be lost though.

And the bit about grace raises the question of definitions again. The word means something different to Catholics than to Protestants.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My take on this is a person cannot divide Christ into categories. He is LORD, God, Savior, Redeemer etc……

So as Lord we are under His Lordship. It’s why Paul in Romans 10 declares one must confess/agree Christ is Lord to be saved. Romans 10:9-13. Jesus makes the point that why do you call Me Lord Lord and do not obey my commands. Lordship begins at Salvation.

hope this helps !!!
I agree.
Perhaps the issue is how these things are measured. A person is saved or not saved. Lordship is a matter of degrees. How knowledgeable we are and how obedient.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The evangelical emphasis on personal salvation sorely neglects the fact that Christ is cosmic Lord and Savior. The Logos through whom all things are created is the same Logos through whom all things are being reconciled to God. God is not just saving some humans from sin and hell, but all creation from finitude and corruption of which evil is a contributing factor. So, it's not primarily about heaven and hell. It's about God fulfilling what God set out to create, i.e. a good creation. That, I think, should be the primary framework through which we think about this, and not whether someone claims to believe a doctrine in order to go to heaven. How personal salvation and eternal destiny figure into that framework has its place, but it should be secondary and appropriately qualified. ...
That is such a great reaction to the video. Thanks.

We tend to make this just about us. It is so much bigger than that.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums