Getting Saved and All That...

Saint Steven

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Peter Enns, Author of The Bible Tells me So... and How the Bible Actually Works, answers a reader question about salvation, given from an Evangelical POV.

He poses his own question: What does Jesus as Savior and Lord mean?

Let's discuss this view of salvation and lordship and its implication across the broad spectrum of time and humanity.

I liked his point about the New Testament writers presenting the lordship of Christ as a comparative to Caesar. Something Israel could relate to in their historical situation.

I'm in the middle of his book The Bible Tells me So... --- Very good. I could recommend the half I have read so far. - lol

This week’s Ask Pete submission is all about accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. What does that mean and what difference does it make? Behind this question are, understandably, some common evangelical/fundamentalist assumptions that need to be turned over a few times—and I’m glad this is a safe space for questioning, exploring, and allowing ambiguity when needed!
 
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Saint Steven

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This scripture is hinted at in the video presentation. It should probably be a part of the discussion. What is the basis for salvation provided here?


Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Peter Enns, Author of The Bible Tells me So... and How the Bible Actually Works, answers a reader question about salvation, given from an Evangelical POV.

He poses his own question: What does Jesus as Savior and Lord mean?

Let's discuss this view of salvation and lordship and its implication across the broad spectrum of time and humanity.

I liked his point about the New Testament writers presenting the lordship of Christ as a comparative to Caesar. Something Israel could relate to in their historical situation.

I'm in the middle of his book The Bible Tells me So... --- Very good. I could recommend the half I have read so far. - lol

This week’s Ask Pete submission is all about accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. What does that mean and what difference does it make? Behind this question are, understandably, some common evangelical/fundamentalist assumptions that need to be turned over a few times—and I’m glad this is a safe space for questioning, exploring, and allowing ambiguity when needed!
Can Jesus be your savior but not your lord? That seems to be the ultimate question he's getting to. I would think the answer would be obvious, but somehow it isn't for a lot of people.
 
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Mr. M

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Can Jesus be your savior but not your lord? That seems to be the ultimate question he's getting to. I would think the answer would be obvious, but somehow it isn't for a lot of people.
Right! He can be called Savior, but to call Him Lord is to be His 'doulos'.(bondservant, or slave)
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God
calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
To walk in the Spirit is to be "a slave to righteousness", according to His Purpose.
Romans 6:
19
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you
presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to
more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end
of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have
your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
 
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Mr. M

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What is the basis for salvation provided here?
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Hopefully, defending them!
Matthew 12:
34
Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance
of the heart the mouth speaks.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil
man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it
in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
 
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public hermit

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The evangelical emphasis on personal salvation sorely neglects the fact that Christ is cosmic Lord and Savior. The Logos through whom all things are created is the same Logos through whom all things are being reconciled to God. God is not just saving some humans from sin and hell, but all creation from finitude and corruption of which evil is a contributing factor. So, it's not primarily about heaven and hell. It's about God fulfilling what God set out to create, i.e. a good creation. That, I think, should be the primary framework through which we think about this, and not whether someone claims to believe a doctrine in order to go to heaven. How personal salvation and eternal destiny figure into that framework has its place, but it should be secondary and appropriately qualified.

Early in the video Enns referred to life transformation. There are saints throughout human history that never heard of Jesus. And yet, they live like Jesus, they love like Jesus, they give like Jesus, they follow him unwittingly, I suppose. That is exactly what Christians are supposed to do, i.e. be like Christ. The mistaken notion that mere belief in a doctrine is life transforming, or at least sufficient if it isn't, couldn't be more mistaken. And I think the modern era has encouraged this wrong-headed kind of thinking.

Throughout most of human history, the pursuit of wisdom was never separated from the pursuit of a certain way of living. After the Enlightenment, intellectual assent took on a life of its own. Wisdom was not so much a way of life, but the ability to have clear and distinct ideas (Descartes) or ideas that agree (Locke). The ancients never separated knowledge of the good from participation in it. Socrates went so far as to say that if one knew the good thing to do one would do it, and if they didn't do the good thing that was an indication they didn't know what it was. That sounds strange to us, because we assume knowledge and doing are two different things. John says something very similar as Socrates when he says if you know God then you love, if you don't love you don't know God.

In the modern era we have separated knowledge (wisdom) from how we live. You can see this at the beginning of the last century when certain groups within the Christian community make the basis for Christian belief not adherence to faithful living, but adherence to a set of fundamentals that must be believed for salvation. Knowledge (pseudo-wisdom) and living become separate things. You see the same effect in modern philosophy with the much debated question, "Can one be an ethicist without adhering to the ethics they prescribe?" That question only makes sense in a context in which people put forward beliefs that have no bearing on how they live, lol.
 
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Mr. M

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That, I think, should be the primary framework through which we think about this, and not whether someone claims to believe a doctrine in order to go to heaven.
The Gospel was never "die and go to heaven" but "live in holiness and righteousness
all the days of our lives". Luke 1:75
The focus of the Gospel was the Resurrection, and a final Judgment by the One whom God appointed.

In the modern era we have separated knowledge (wisdom) from how we live.
True Wisdom "from above" is not the accumulation of knowledge, but devotion and service to
the One
Who Is the knowledge of God.
Colossians 3:
1
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is,
sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,
willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
Which yields the fruit of the Spirit.
John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him,
bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Servants of the Lord understand that the fruit of the Spirit is not for themselves,
but to be sown into His body.
Notice he does not say the seed of righteousness.

James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
 
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com7fy8

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Below, in blue italics, is my representation of what the man in the video is saying. Parts are his actual words, though I have not put them in quotes >

In the video, he starts off by saying, what does it mean to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior; and what do we need so we get to Heaven? And he has an issue about people who claim to be saved yet don't act like Jesus, while he also knows unbelievers who do act like Jesus; and so he struggles with the thought that unbelievers will go to hell if the person acted like Jesus.

He says evangelicals can say salvation means that if you have accepted Jesus you are sure to go to Heaven. But when Zacchaeus met with Jesus, Jesus said salvation came to his house because he had a transformed life.

He does not see hell as a place of torment.


My point, though > But people in sin are already in torment . . . right now in this life > just a point to consider, for now.

Back to what he is saying >

Being Savior has to do with Jesus saving us from our sin.

Jesus being Lord has to do with following Jesus and doing the right things, he says. It is not about what happens only after you die.

So - - what happens to people who have not accepted Jesus but who act like Him?

He hopes people will ultimately be redeemed.

He doubts God would send people to hell, just for not saying "the magic words".


So, he talks about living a transformed life, how people act, and saying words of a prayer. All this can be outward . . . not what God judges by.

Our Apostle Paul says, "God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ", in Romans 2:16.

Plus, Jesus says,

"'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24)

So, if he has hope for an unbeliever to get to Heaven, because of how the unbeliever acts . . . this is not Biblical. This can be evaluating by appearance, which Jesus says not to do.

What happens in the heart is what matters. A person needs how God changes his or her heart. But then, of course, because God has changed a person's heart, the person's life does become transformed . . . as the heart is truly transformed by God through Jesus.

Getting saved starts with trusting in Jesus, I understand through Ephesians 1:12 where Paul says, "we who first trusted in Christ". When someone trusts in Jesus, Jesus pardons the person, yes, and the person is guaranteed to spend eternity with Jesus, I understand, and here is why . . . going by some scriptures >

When Paul ministered to people to get them saved, they were turned "from the power of Satan to God" > see Acts 26:18. They were brought to God, Himself, and we see how with God we share with Him in His own love "in our hearts" >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

The person is "joined to the Lord" so now he or she has become "one spirit with Him." In my Strong's Concordance Bible Greek dictionary, it seems to say that the word "joined" in Bible Greek can mean "glued". When God saves a person, then, He glues the person to Himself . . . with almighty super-glue . . . of His own almighty power to keep the person, plus change the person's character to be like His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Our reason to have "boldness in the day of judgment", then, is not what we have said in a prayer, or how we have acted, but how God's love is curing our character so that > "as He is, so are we in this world." In this life, then, God's own love is transforming our character so we become like Jesus and love like Jesus . . . in personal sharing with Him and one another as family. We help one another with this; we have become family, then, with God, by being saved.

Going by these scriptures, I would say this is basic. And all these words and grammar are probably junior high level or less.

So . . . this is what I have simply by looking at the Bible. The speaker in the video does not talk about these scriptures, while discussing what it is to be saved by Jesus. But these things are in God's word.

And getting ready for judgment includes how God changes us to be "as He is" "in this world".

And Hebrews chapter twelve does say, that without holiness "no one will see the Lord". And this chapter shows how our Father's correction changes us so we "become partakers of His holiness" . . . in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness". This is in our character, not only "imputed" to (declared to be in) our record in Heaven, but this is how God's love in us effects our character so we are and live like Jesus now, and so this is commanded >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

If Jesus saves you, you are safe. And if Jesus lives in your heart, you are like Jesus and you love like Jesus. You do not only act nice, but you share with God in your heart, when Jesus saves you. And God is almighty; so His peace is almighty to keep you safe from cruel anger and unforgiving thoughts and unhappy ways of wanting selfish pleasures. God's way of loving is so better; He has us loving any and all people. Jesus keeps us satisfied with real loving, and God our Creator makes us creative so we know how to love any person, at all. And we share as family with God and one another who are His Jesus love family. And our good example of this can help evil people to want to join Jesus and us; this is possible with God.

How educated do you have to be to understand this and trust God for this?

But the speaker in the video does not seem to talk about this. I recall him only talking about how unbelievers act and how certain people say a prayer and how a life was transformed, but he did not say anything clear about how Jesus knew that the man's heart, not only his life, was transformed. But acting and saying a prayer and a changed outward life can be only a show; we can act nice so we can use people for what we want.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" Jesus warns us in Matthew 5:46.

We need how God is able to transform our character. And I have offered scripture about how God works and succeeds, in a person whom He saves through Jesus Christ.
 
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com7fy8

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This scripture is hinted at in the video presentation. It should probably be a part of the discussion. What is the basis for salvation provided here?


Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
But > >

In the video, like I have offered, he seems to say he knows unbelievers who "act like Jesus", but there are Bible church people who say a prayer and think this is enough to get them to Heaven. I think he means that someone acting nice should be able to go to Heaven, if just saying a prayer is enough.

But I do not remember him saying much, if anything, about how God is able to change our character.

Acting can be a show. Also, you don't know what a nice actor or smart talker is doing in secret; but Jesus knows now, and He will know on the day of judgment. And there are people who use their acting to get on the good side of people; they act nice, not because they love people, but so they can use other people for things they want, and for votes.

There are people who are questioning Bible things, so they can change people from voting with Bible believing Republicans, and get them to vote for Democrats who are trying to make it more and more legal to do evil and immoral things. In order to do this, they cast doubt on things like hell and judgment and being able to tell the difference between God's people and people who are not for real. Ones actually claim it is not possible to tell the difference! But Jesus says not to judge "according to appearance" (John 7:24). So, yes, with Jesus we can tell the difference between people we should trust and ones not to trust.

And the speaker in the video seems very clear how he does not believe there is hell where evil and selfish people will stay in torment forever. So, this is part of his meaning of things he says. I do not know if he is trying to make Bible claiming voters seem like they are wrong to vote Republican. But if people decide there is no hell, right along with this ones can tend to not believe what Bible believers say about right from wrong.

He seems to say he thinks that an unbeliever can get to Heaven if he or she acts like Jesus. After all, he seems to claim, if just saying a prayer can get a Bible believer to Heaven, then surely it should be enough to act like Jesus even if you don't believe in Him. He seems to mean this, from what I heard of what he says in the video.

But God's word is clear that acting is not enough, including the acting of saying a prayer and maybe conforming to some church's culture of how to act. So, in your quoted Romans scripture, Romans 2:14-16, I would say God does not mean Gentiles who do good things as only some gesture while their character is wrong.

After all, God's word says we have been saved "not by works of righteousness which we have done," in Titus 3:5.

So, it is foolish to depend on myself and what I have gotten myself to do.

The video speaker says he hopes all people will become saved; he says he struggles with the idea that there is hell where people will suffer torment for eternity. He claims to hope that everyone will at some point be saved.

But God's word does not in plain words say this. God's word does say people will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power," in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

And people already are suffering in torment . . . in their fear > "fear involves torment", we have in 1 John 4:18. People's own unloving character makes them weak so they suffer "torment"!! God is not the One making selfish people suffer.

And God's word says we will "reap" what we have been sowing. What you reap is so much more than those little seeds you have sown. So, if someone has been sowing selfishly, the person can reap ever more and more misery and destruction . . . torment.

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

You will reap more than what you have sown in this life. This is because we have spiritual personalities . . . our souls. And what is spiritual does not go out of existence. The "corruption" of a selfish person is conscious now, and will be more conscious later, after the person no longer has a physical body to dilute that "destruction and misery" (Romans 3:16).
 
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Saint Steven

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Can Jesus be your savior but not your lord? That seems to be the ultimate question he's getting to. I would think the answer would be obvious, but somehow it isn't for a lot of people.
There is a school of thought that seems to say, "If you said the magic words, your in." If that's the case, then lordship becomes a question. Who needs it? (in that scenario)

Also, from that perspective salvation becomes very binary. The only two choices are on or off. Like an ON/OFF switch.

And how is lordship measured?
 
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chevyontheriver

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Right! He can be called Savior, but to call Him Lord is to be His 'doulos'.(bondservant, or slave)
I am the bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ. The rest of it they can argue about all they want.
 
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chevyontheriver

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There is a school of thought that seems to say, "If you said the magic words, your in." If that's the case, then lordship becomes a question. Who needs it? (in that scenario)
There is a school of Protestant thought. The whole thing seems absurd to this Catholic who doesn’t know how to separate my Lord from my Savior.
 
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What is the basis for salvation provided here? Romans 2:14-16:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Paul is not discussing salvation in Romans 2:1-16. . .he is presenting the basis of God's judgment of mankind.
In vv. 14-16, the basis in the parenthetical vv. 14-15 is according to the law of one's own conscience, as in the Gentiles who do not have the law, and whose own consciences accuse them of unrightesousness, as the law accuses of unrighteousness those under the law. (Galatians 3:10).

Paul's burden in Romans 1:18-3:20 is proving the unrighteousness of all mankind--Gentiles according to their conscience, and Jews according to the law--which locks up all men in sin (Romans 3:9, Romans 11:20) so that righteousness comes only from God by faith (Romans 1:17) and apart from law (Romans 3:21).
 
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The evangelical emphasis on personal salvation sorely neglects the fact that Christ is cosmic Lord and Savior. The Logos through whom all things are created is the same Logos through whom all things are being reconciled to God. God is not just saving some humans from sin and hell, but all creation from finitude and corruption of which evil is a contributing factor. So, it's not primarily about heaven and hell. It's about God fulfilling what God set out to create, i.e. a good creation.
How about God's purpose is to show forth the glory of his goodness, justice, etc. in the glorification of his Son through restoration of his creation in the new creation, far surpassing the original creation, and particularly, his human creation.

I'll limit it to that, for now.

That, I think, should be the primary framework through which we think about this, and not whether someone claims to believe a doctrine in order to go to heaven. How personal salvation and eternal destiny figure into that framework has its place, but it should be secondary and appropriately qualified.

Early in the video Enns referred to life transformation. There are saints throughout human history that never heard of Jesus. And yet, they live like Jesus, they love like Jesus, they give like Jesus, they follow him unwittingly, I suppose. That is exactly what Christians are supposed to do, i.e. be like Christ. The mistaken notion that mere belief in a doctrine is life transforming, or at least sufficient if it isn't, couldn't be more mistaken. And I think the modern era has encouraged this wrong-headed kind of thinking.

Throughout most of human history, the pursuit of wisdom was never separated from the pursuit of a certain way of living. After the Enlightenment, intellectual assent took on a life of its own. Wisdom was not so much a way of life, but the ability to have clear and distinct ideas (Descartes) or ideas that agree (Locke). The ancients never separated knowledge of the good from participation in it. Socrates went so far as to say that if one knew the good thing to do one would do it, and if they didn't do the good thing that was an indication they didn't know what it was. That sounds strange to us, because we assume knowledge and doing are two different things. John says something very similar as Socrates when he says if you know God then you love, if you don't love you don't know God.

In the modern era we have separated knowledge (wisdom) from how we live. You can see this at the beginning of the last century when certain groups within the Christian community make the basis for Christian belief not adherence to faithful living, but adherence to a set of fundamentals that must be believed for salvation. Knowledge (pseudo-wisdom) and living become separate things. You see the same effect in modern philosophy with the much debated question, "Can one be an ethicist without adhering to the ethics they prescribe?" That question only makes sense in a context in which people put forward beliefs that have no bearing on how they live, lol.
Preach it, brother! . . .I'm pattin' my foot!
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Can Jesus be your savior but not your lord? That seems to be the ultimate question he's getting to. I would think the answer would be obvious, but somehow it isn't for a lot of people.
And how does his lordship make a difference in our behaviors?
 
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How about God's purpose is to show forth the glory of his goodness, justice, etc. in the glorification of his Son through restoration of his creation in the new creation, far surpassing the original creation, and particularly, his human creation.

Yes, all of that. We can differentiate between creation and recreation, but it is all one divine intention. The Augustinian idea that everything was perfect, and then not perfect makes it seem like God flubbed the first try and will get it right on the second try. I'm more inclined to Irenaeus's notion that creatures, by necessity, must begin less than perfect and come to perfection by a process of maturity.

If, however, any one say, "What then? Could not God have exhibited man as perfect from beginning?" let him know that, inasmuch as God is indeed always the same and unbegotten as respects Himself, all things are possible to Him. But created things must be inferior to Him who created them, from the very fact of their later origin; for it was not possible for things recently created to have been uncreated. But inasmuch as they are not uncreated, for this very reason do they come short of the perfect. Because, as these things are of later date, so are they infantile; so are they unaccustomed to, and unexercised in, perfect discipline. For as it certainly is in the power of a mother to give strong food to her infant, [but she does not do so], as the child is not yet able to receive more substantial nourishment; so also it was possible for God Himself to have made man perfect from the first, but man could not receive this [perfection], being as yet an infant. And for this cause our Lord in these last times, when He had summed up all things into Himself, came to us, not as He might have come, but as we were capable of beholding Him. He might easily have come to us in His immortal glory, but in that case we could never have endured the greatness of the glory; and therefore it was that He, who was the perfect bread of the Father, offered Himself to us as milk, [because we were] as infants. He did this when He appeared as a man, that we, being nourished, as it were, from the breast of His flesh, and having, by such a course of milk nourishment, become accustomed to eat and drink the Word of God, may be able also to contain in ourselves the Bread of immortality, which is the Spirit of the Father.

Why Man was not Made Perfect from the Beginning.
 
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