Getting Giddy Over Pope Francis

[dzheremi]

Well...okay, yes. My point was more in reply to things like Gurney's statements about what Pope Francis ought to be doing or not doing, but I also agree with what you just typed. The world loves to make the church into this kind of social services and good feelings factory, but we ought not like it too. Apparently many Christians (both Catholic and apparently also EO, from what you have stated) do like that, though. It's weird. My point was that even if Francis were much more conservative than he appears to be, it wouldn't matter much, because the RC papacy is essentially a matter of chance. And whether they get a "good one" or not is dependent on who's deciding what's good and what isn't, and the ideological wings poison everything about their church, whereas Orthodox may argue over this or that Pope (and here I'm referring to my own church; I don't think yours has Popes, does it? Or is the EO Patriarch of Alexandria also referred to as Pope? No matter, as we all know what it does and doesn't mean, I hope), but would not hesitate to dispatch with someone who is actually unfit to govern (e.g., Coptic Pope Yusab II as recently as the 1950s), and don't allow one man's opinion on the faith to dictate anything (e.g., even in the midst of disputes between HH Pope Shenouda III and Matta El Miskeen, there were plenty on both sides; it's not a matter of "agree with the Pope or you're a heretic", since the Pope is, after all, one fallible man and at any rate accountable to the synod composed of his brother bishops).

Warped RC ecclesiology will not be fixed with a more conservative Pope, so we ought not be surprised by Pope Francis or whoever the next one will be. I'm sorry to say, but it's a total tear down at this point, not a matter of reform or reinterpretation while keeping the overall structure intact.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Everyone has access with all the social safety nets, loans, and resources we have. My school that I teach in is in a very LOWER MIDDLE CLASS neighborhood. We're talking lower m.c. 50% white, 50% Mexican neighborhood with uneducated parents. We have $17,000 Chromebook carts in every classroom, state of the art software for reading and math programs, solid teachers, decent curriculum, plenty of extra support, and we work hard. The kids all have equal access, but some parents don't help their kids while those kids could care less. The ones who care thrive. Those who don't, well, DON'T!

Most of the time anyone can be anything they want if they strive and have faith. But we live in a godless society of cynicism and people being fed the hopeless violin playing narrative I'm hearing in this thread, so of course they fail.

Hypothetical access and access are not the same thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I haven't seen anyone doing this....I have simply heard people blasting certain economic systems while favoring others, but nobody has tried to jam Christianity into them? Or am I missing something?

Cease the foolishness of trying to jam Christianity into any kind of worldly system or philosophy! Whether its socialism, libertarianism, conservatism, liberalism, etc. We are first and foremost subjects of the Kingdom of God and our "social program" is not any "ism", but the Love of God in the Holy Trinity!

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I think one part of the reason that Pope Francis is such a curiosity for non-Catholics is because the RCC has such an awful public image, and he doesn't fit the general public's expectations of a RCC Pope. I don't think this horrible public image exists for many other mainstream Christian sects, aside from maybe evangelical Protestantism. However, the image issues are different for both. That's kind of the way I see it, anyway. There's a lot of curiosity as to what he's going to do or say next.

 

[buzuxi02]

I believe its because of the lukewarmness that most have for the faith. Most people are conditioned to celebrate unity and the tolerance of diverse beliefs as the way to go. That we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya.
On the religious level ecumenism has contributed to this dumbing down. Speech after speech that doctrine doesnt matter, that more things unites us than seperates us, blah blah.
We need to be vigilant in these times as many of the laity are actually a 5th column making it more difficult to raise christian families in a traditional Orthodox home.

 

[Cappadocious]

The kids all have equal access, but some parents don't help their kids while those kids could care less.

So by your own admission they have equal access hypothetically, but not in the actual world.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I understand your points, Jeremy, and don't disagree. I say what the pope should or shouldn't be doing all the while I'm fully aware that the Catholic Church is schismatic and off the rails of the train tracks anyway. So, is what I'm saying going to come to fruition? Probably not. The only Church I know that is 100% Holy Spirit-guided is the Orthodox Church. Even the Copts I don't know about. I can't say with any certitude what anyone outside of Orthodoxy will do or say, teach, or believe, though I see Coptic Orthodoxy as very holy and rich in tradition as well as morally sound.

But my point is that Catholicism has rules, traditions, and papal teachings as well as doctrines that are de fide for them. They have a core set of values. Often times that core mirrors our own, other times it deviates greatly. But with the life issue, LGBT nonsense, marriage, the family, rule of law, and basic morality, well, they tend to be pretty much in sync with us. If the pope is to be consistent with Catholic traditions and de fide doctrines that they themselves say are infallible, he's failing miserably. At least Benedict was pretty true to their doctrines, and except for ecumenical oddities so was JP2. When I speak of these popes, I do so with an outside-looking-in approach judging their actions by their own rules, not those of Orthodoxy.

A church in schism is going to sail in troubled waters anyway, so commentary is probably fruitless. Heck, this thread probably is. We're all speculating, conjecture, just throwing in our two cents.

I don't think popes are going to change much, but I DO wish Catholics well. I used to be one. I want them to succeed. I don't want to see a Catholic Church with lady priests, abortion considered ok, men marrying men, and other abominations. I wish them well. And I hope they get a pope with his head screwed on. I wish the Anglicans well. I don't want to see them continue to flounder like they have done in the past 40 years. Those poor folks have everything wrong with them right now. I with ACNA and other traditional Anglican variations well! But I don't claim they're orthodox or on the 100% right path.

My posts here are speculative goofiness. I'm totally honest about that! LOL

Well...okay, yes. My point was more in reply to things like Gurney's statements about what Pope Francis ought to be doing or not doing, but I also agree with what you just typed. The world loves to make the church into this kind of social services and good feelings factory, but we ought not like it too. Apparently many Christians (both Catholic and apparently also EO, from what you have stated) do like that, though. It's weird. My point was that even if Francis were much more conservative than he appears to be, it wouldn't matter much, because the RC papacy is essentially a matter of chance. And whether they get a "good one" or not is dependent on who's deciding what's good and what isn't, and the ideological wings poison everything about their church, whereas Orthodox may argue over this or that Pope (and here I'm referring to my own church; I don't think yours has Popes, does it? Or is the EO Patriarch of Alexandria also referred to as Pope? No matter, as we all know what it does and doesn't mean, I hope), but would not hesitate to dispatch with someone who is actually unfit to govern (e.g., Coptic Pope Yusab II as recently as the 1950s), and don't allow one man's opinion on the faith to dictate anything (e.g., even in the midst of disputes between HH Pope Shenouda III and Matta El Miskeen, there were plenty on both sides; it's not a matter of "agree with the Pope or you're a heretic", since the Pope is, after all, one fallible man and at any rate accountable to the synod composed of his brother bishops).

Warped RC ecclesiology will not be fixed with a more conservative Pope, so we ought not be surprised by Pope Francis or whoever the next one will be. I'm sorry to say, but it's a total tear down at this point, not a matter of reform or reinterpretation while keeping the overall structure intact.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is no place on the face of this Earth in human history where EVERY SINGLE human being was completely 1000000% on an equal footing. You know what, Cap.

But at my school, despite having deadbeat lazy parents, kids still have access to free math tutoring, partner groups, time to ask me questions, and the opportunity to thrive. So, just because I say the parents suck doesn't mean you're automatically correct here that the "actual" world is what you're saying it is.

My wife is from the Philippines. In a country like that, I'm most definitely more prone to agreeing with you. You can have a 4.00 GPA and play ten instruments, speak 4 languages, and be a virtual genius, but if you don't have the pesos, you're DONE with the idea of college and being upwardly mobile. Here in the states college access is a pretty easy thing. People are lazy.

Take a look at most high school exit exams, they're geared to AN EIGHTH GRADE LEVEL, bro!!! There are more opportunities in place than ever. I know plenty of kids who've succeeded not thanks to but IN SPITE OF their scum bag parents!!!!

So no, I'm not admitting anything.

So by your own admission they have equal access hypothetically, but not in the actual world.

 

[Cappadocious]

There is no place on the face of this Earth in human history where EVERY SINGLE human being was completely 1000000% on an equal footing.

Right, so the notion that everyone has access to success, let alone equal access, is nonsense.

People are lazy.

Why?

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I disagree that college is accessible. If I hadn't had instate tuition and a full scholarship, I would never have been able to complete my degree. I applied to and got into several high quality liberal arts schools, and until I realized I didn't have the money for it, I was going to go to Tulane. Right now, I'm taking a series of calculus classes at community college in order to get into a biostatistics Ph.D. program; for that, I'll probably have a free ride as well. But, I'm truly very, very fortunate, and it's not necessarily because I'm a hard worker. I'm somewhat lazy but I'm also incredibly intelligent. It takes me a lot less time to study and digest material than it does many other people, but when I do hit material that confounds me, I get incredibly frustrated to the point of wanting to give up.

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Nonsense. With capitalism anyone has access to success. Doesn't matter your color or social circumstances. Study hard, focus on your studies, don't get anyone pregnant in high school and don't get a drug or alcohol problem, stay out of gangs and with the wrong crowds.....go to college and get loans and grants, get good job. OR....work small jobs while saving your money and come up with a great idea, loan, start business. Voila.

In theory

Plenty of people in the capitalist system succeed. Most who don't choose not to or use excuses of their neighborhood, skin color, or circumstances to stay and wallow in the food stamp welfare waters where they swim and swim.

Ok and my parents immigrated to America from Greece and are dirt poor and I am in school, work 50+ hours a week and barely make ends meet and still depend on EBT, Obamacare, etc.

I'm technically labeled as an "apprentice," diesel mechanic and only make 8 dollars an hour because mgmt can get away with paying me less by two words "apprentice," and "maintenance." The monetary system is an archaic joke. The only reason I can even go to school is by getting grants for being extremely poor.

My parents had very little money growing up. They were so broke half the time that we only ate out at restaurants once a month and any clothes I needed for school went on charge cards. My dad worked two jobs---Southern California Edison power company and with the Army Reserves. My mom worked part time. AND YET they scrimped and saved and paid for my entire college bill with zero loans. My family was broke. We never went anywhere until summer and even then we stayed in a tiny camper on the back of my dad's Ford truck! He drove the same 66 Ford truck (still does drive it!) and we'd keep cars for ten years at a time. My mom and I would have to dig under the couch cushions in the summer to find coins to go to Thrifty and get an ice cream. That was our "big moment" for the day.

Ok so that's a lot of middle class problems and I'm finding it hard to keep a straight face irl; no offense. You only got to eat out once or twice a week. Try missing meals 3 or 5 times a week lol

My parents put me through college through sacrifice, scrimping, saving, and pinching pennies. They had a dream for me to graduate college...AND I DID! Now I'm a teacher, I make a respectable salary. I have benefits, a pension, and some comfort.

Ok? And? You do realize just because there are success stories doesn't negate anything I may be saying nor does it mean there aren't better models for social organization, allocation of resources, and access to basic rights such as education.

In the 1940s-50s you could pay for college with about a month or two's pay checks. Now the debt incurred by students is crippling and absurd. The system is broken, holding on to rosey images of yesteryear and shilling for the bourgeoisie doesn't mean the US isn't a sinking ship.

My wife came DIRT POOR from the Philippines! She came to the U.S. with zero!!!! My wedding ring that she bought for me cost $100!!!! She grew up half the time without electricity and sometimes no gas or lights! She had to put herself through college in the Philippines working while going to school.

Oh, and now a story that sounds familiar...in America...

My wife comes to America, is an amazing mom, goes to school at nights, becomes a nurse.

I work on land whales by day, education by night, mortician soon. I know her story, it's pretty much mine. So?

So my parents, when I was growing up, made around $30,000 a year!!! Then at the HEIGHT of my parents' working when I was in college they made $42,000!!! That's it. That's the ceiling they reached. My wife and I make a combined $130,000. Progress!!

I live in the "hood," whoop de doo and that's all well in good but again anecdotes don't the evils and inequalities of the monetary system. Technocracy is the only model which makes sense at this point.

I hope my kids do even better! My kids go to a private school because I'm sacrificing $1,400 per month so they can get the best education they can have. The goal is for them to outdo us!

We don't need the government running our lives to be successful. We need sacrifice, hard work, belief in ourselves, faith in God, hope, and determination. Throwing $$$$ at people and the welfare state doesn't work worth beans.

Excuse me for thinking there's more to life than chasing the money dragon and crapping on your dreams I guess. Notice how your success is tied to wealth accumulation.

And with regard to the color of your skin----I have plenty of Mexican friends who make more money than I do! My best friend is a highway patrolman. His parents came here broke from Mexico in the 1950's...BROWN SKIN AND ALL! He makes $100,000 a year to my $75,000. His wife, also Mexican, makes around $80,000. My wife's Filipino friends, mostly nurses and doctors, are loaded. Brown skin. How did Dr. Ben Carson become a rich, successful neurologist? His skin seems a touch dark?

And one time my Dominican neighbor who's like 120 won 50 bucks in the lottery; thanks to her hard work, dedication and faith.

Capitalism is heavily flawed.

Those based on social stratification, inequality, hoarding of basic resources, violence, and so on usually are...

Any Earthly system is! I'd prefer Chesterton's distributism model, but it's quite unrealistic and a pipe dream in many ways, but if I have to choose between freedom and capitalism and the tyranny of the government running my life, it's a no-brainer.

False dichotomies abound.

This pope spooks me. Growing up in liberation theology-rich South America is NOT a strength imho!

Debatable.

 

[dzheremi]

But my point is that Catholicism has rules, traditions, and papal teachings as well as doctrines that are de fide for them. They have a core set of values. Often times that core mirrors our own, other times it deviates greatly. But with the life issue, LGBT nonsense, marriage, the family, rule of law, and basic morality, well, they tend to be pretty much in sync with us. If the pope is to be consistent with Catholic traditions and de fide doctrines that they themselves say are infallible, he's failing miserably. At least Benedict was pretty true to their doctrines, and except for ecumenical oddities so was JP2. When I speak of these popes, I do so with an outside-looking-in approach judging their actions by their own rules, not those of Orthodoxy.

Fair enough. I guess my point was that their ecclesiology prevents them from having anything that is truly unchangeable outside of perhaps that ecclesiology itself (and even that is itself a development away from what was their historical norm, though they'll never admit it). As an Indian Orthodox acquaintance once put it, the only true heresy in the eyes of Rome is ecclesiological heresy -- that is, refusing to be in union with Rome, or attacking what Rome sees as its God-given, irrevocable place among the world's churches. Whereas if they were Orthodox, or at least functioned as Orthodox do, Pope Francis wouldn't even be in the position to hold the interfaith prayer meeting he just held (apparently with EO participation, if the pictures are to be believed; Lord have mercy!), or do any of this other "fudging" on the fundamentals of faith which the world is eagerly congratulating him for.

I don't think popes are going to change much, but I DO wish Catholics well. I used to be one. I want them to succeed. I don't want to see a Catholic Church with lady priests, abortion considered ok, men marrying men, and other abominations. I wish them well. And I hope they get a pope with his head screwed on.

Same, though that's not gonna right the ship.

 

[gzt]

Right now, I'm taking a series of calculus classes at community college in order to get into a biostatistics Ph.D. program; for that, I'll probably have a free ride as well.

PhD programs are fully funded and have stipend. If you want to talk about statistics PhD programs, feel free to drop me a line.

 

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

PhD programs are fully funded and have stipend. If you want to talk about statistics PhD programs, feel free to drop me a line.

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind!

 

[jckstraw72]

He is a member of a schismatic Church that holds to heretical beliefs! My word! What is it going to take to get Orthodox people to realize this!?!

i think just 2 more threads on TAW will do the trick!

 

[St Herman's Ghost]

Ok, let me take a quick poll, did anyone here claim the pope/RCC weren't schismatic, in error, heretical?

Yeah see, pretty sure no one did so why are yinz getting all huffy and puffy? Is this like I'm more Orthodox than thou thing or something? Cuz I've been Orthodox since I've been in the womb haha

 

[GregConstantine]

"Yeah see, pretty sure no one did so why are yinz getting all huffy and puffy? Is this like I'm more Orthodox than thou thing or something? Cuz I've been Orthodox since I've been in the womb haha"

not getting all huffy and puffy, or thinking "more Orthodox than thou", but, I find it hard to believe that if one believes the Orthodox Church to be the one true Church, why would one gush all over the pope? I don't mean having an interest in big news events happening in the world around us, I'm talking about gushing all over this man as if he was one of us. I quoted in more than one quotes verbatim things that Orthodox people I know on FB said about the pope. If you read them, you'll see that it goes beyond a mere interest in current events.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thankfully I still don't see it in my FB feeds. Scrolling down many, many, many posts, I see 2-3 about the Pope. And I do have some Catholic friends, sometimes it's them.

Maybe it's because Pope Francis has been "trending"? I never paid attention, but can you click that and be taken to Pope Francis posts? Maybe some people do that and that's what they share?

I have no idea. My Orthodox FB friends still aren't talking much about Pope Francis one way or another.

 

[prodromos]

I don't ever go on facebook, so I wouldn't have a clue what my two Orthodox facebook friends might be saying about the pope.

 

[GregConstantine]

check this out:

http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2015/09/28/un-ecumenism/

Although it doesn't directly answer the question of why people are fawning over the pope, it certainly does touches on many themes that I think influences why some Orthodox people may be doing this. It really boils down to a misunderstanding of ecclesiology.