George W. Bush: Bigotry and white supremacy are 'blasphemy' against the American creed

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Luckily I was not picked on because we kept it hidden for the most part. I was unaware of any other Jews in the town I lived in Arkansas. We would drive about 45 minutes to an hour to Jonesboro, Ark to a Reform synagogue about once every month or so. There was a synagogue in Brookhaven, Mississippi that we attended when we lived there, but it was a dying congregation with only 12 families, most over 70 years old, and has since closed and become the Lincoln County Historic Museum. By the time we had moved to Alabama, we were un-observant and just about assimilated, but we lived in what was known as a “sundown town” so if anyone asked what church we attended, we always said “Methodist”. They probably had no idea what a “Jew” or “Catholic” look like, but they knew that they hated them.

Well I'm glad you weren't picked on but sorry you had to keep that hidden. I asked my mom about this, she said that there was a Jewish family we'd been friends with from playing baseball with their boys. They didn't live in the same town, but same county. Never went to school with them so I don't know what their experience was like there. They drove an hour to Dothan to go to a synagogue. I had no idea. In that area it was assumed you were Baptist unless you said otherwise.

Why did folks hate Catholics, too?
 
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Landon Caeli

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The American Creed is a statement of the defining element of American identity, first formulated by Thomas Jefferson and elaborated by many others,[1] that includes liberty, equality, individualism, populism, and laissez faire.[2] The creed is an element ofAmerican exceptionalism, with English writerG. K. Chesterton claiming "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed."[3]

The creed has historically been violated by group based discrimination, such as that against African Americans, and it has been challenged by group based attempts to correct the resulting inequalities, such asaffirmative action.[2]

American Creed - Wikipedia
 
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iluvatar5150

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Trump and his supporters aren't trying to win your approval.

And yet they whine and cry like children when they don't get it.

The most shrill voices against Trump are those from the press and the entertainment industry... and the saddest thing about them is that they honestly expect that they can even talk about morals without being laughed at. Yes, Harvey Weinstein cut out a big fat check for Hillary Clinton's campaign because Trump was so offensive to his morals...

And the left has completely abandoned Weinstein. Yet, Bill O'Reilly is still being defended by a number of people on the right.

Which party was supposed to support family values?
 
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Redac

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The American Creed is a statement of the defining element of American identity, first formulated by Thomas Jefferson and elaborated by many others,[1] that includes liberty, equality, individualism, populism, and laissez faire.[2] The creed is an element ofAmerican exceptionalism, with English writerG. K. Chesterton claiming "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed."[3]

The creed has historically been violated by group based discrimination, such as that against African Americans, and it has been challenged by group based attempts to correct the resulting inequalities, such asaffirmative action.[2]

American Creed - Wikipedia
Anyone who thinks someone like Jefferson was some sort of racial egalitarian who was talking about a racially and culturally diverse nation based only on common ideals and values really has no idea what they're talking about.

(Not you specifically, but in general)
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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And the left has completely abandoned Weinstein.

...but not the culture that allowed him to thrive.

Which party was supposed to support family values?

I don't know, which? If the Dems want their turn at being the party of prudes, they're welcome to it. It didn't work very well for the GOP.

Huh... So it's wrong for others to talk about counterfactuals, but it's perfectly ok for you to do so by saying that "without the bailouts, the recession probably wouldn't have happened".

I don't even know where to begin with that claim. You're honestly the first person I've come across who's espoused anything close to that.

Am I responsible for what grasping after the wind posts?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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No, I'm just tired of dealing with people who are dishonest in their methods and their arguments.

I'm not sure if you're trying to beat around the bush of calling me racist, or if it's just a bit too much wandering on your part, but let me make it clear to you: No, I am not racist and I do not 'engage' in Identity Politics. My stance has always been pretty darn clear: I hate identity politics in all shapes and sizes and colors. It's pure, unvarnished cancer. I think people who engage in them are hateful, bigoted, and the lowest of the low. I also realize that if you tolerate it in any form, that all of them grow because hate begets hate.

As for why I mentioned that particular example in this particular thread, let's just say that any kind of racist angers me. I will pray for them, I will try to reason with them, but my patience for them is generally very low. Add to that the fact that I have a very smart mouth, and it lands me in all sorts of trouble.

No, I'm not accusing you of being racist (If I think someone's a racist on CF, I simply just directly call them that and have done so on numerous occasions), I'm saying that what you're doing sure seems a lot like you're just trying to find a way to take the side that's the opposite of the liberals.

Basically, the same strategy the "all lives matter" people use. They don't want to condone racism because they're not racists, but at the same time, they can't bring themselves to agree with their political rivals on the topic of systemic racism that negatively impacts one specific group far more than the others so instead of agreeing with the liberals that focusing on the one facet of racism that's the most problematic and has the most sweeping effects makes perfect sense, they simply act as if the only logical position is to focus on all facets of racism equally and act as if any other position on the matter is somehow "reverse racism".

...and basically, it comes across like this cartoon.
upload_2017-10-24_8-46-51.png
 
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Rion

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No, I'm not accusing you of being racist (If I think someone's a racist on CF, I simply just directly call them that and have done so on numerous occasions), I'm saying that what you're doing sure seems a lot like you're just trying to find a way to take the side that's the opposite of the liberals.

Basically, the same strategy the "all lives matter" people use. They don't want to condone racism because they're not racists, but at the same time, they can't bring themselves to agree with their political rivals on the topic of systemic racism that negatively impacts one specific group far more than the others so instead of agreeing with the liberals that focusing on the one facet of racism that's the most problematic and has the most sweeping effects makes perfect sense, they simply act as if the only logical position is to focus on all facets of racism equally and act as if any other position on the matter is somehow "reverse racism".

...and basically, it comes across like this cartoon.
View attachment 210833

Huh. Any time I try to call out someone for being racist I get hit with warnings. Odd.

I don't align against 'liberals.' I, myself, am a classical liberal whose personal social views are conservative. I honestly don't even care about regular, normal Progressives provided they don't start rambling about insane conspiracies involving peeing on hotel beds and the "hacker known as 4Chan".

What I am directly opposed to, however, is ideologies like Critical Race Theory and Intersectional Feminism. And no, this doesn't make me some woman making MRA. Had I never had the displeasure of 3rd Wave/Intersectional Feminism, I'd have said that yeah, I was a feminist. What it does make me is someone who realizes that the answer to one extreme is almost never the opposite extreme. For a Christian example, most major heresies actually developed as responses against another heretical extreme, just taking it in the opposite direction. For a political version, it's like trying to claim that the abuses of the free market mean we have to go with full-throated communism.

You want to compare me to the ALM people, but it's honestly more like your arguments are the same as those who get angry when people reject both Neo-Nazis and Antifa. Just because I think NN are scumbags doesn't mean I want to get in bed with Anarcho-Communists. Just because I am aware of this nation's past failures and the issues of the day, it doesn't mean I want to get in bed with rainbow haired weirdos who ramble about the cisnormative, white, patriarchy all day. Just because white on black racism has been a far bigger issue in this country historically, it doesn't mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to racism of a different shade.

If you want to defend racists and bigots because you think history justifies their behavior, you go right ahead. Just don't pontificate to those of us who don't tolerate any behavior of that sort. You're not more intelligent or more enlightened than the rest of us. All you've managed to do is to argue yourself into either ignoring or defending that which you claim to oppose.

In short, your arguments are like the guy with the camera in this cartoon:

iu
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You want to compare me to the ALM people, but it's honestly more like your arguments are the same as those who get angry when people reject both Neo-Nazis and Antifa. Just because I think NN are scumbags doesn't mean I want to get in bed with Anarcho-Communists.

Actually, it's not...for one, I was one of the folks claiming that I disliked both of those groups and taking flak for it. If you'll recall, that was one of those rare days where Rion & Rob were on the same side of a debate.

Second, the two scenarios aren't moral equivalents. The "I oppose both Antifa and Neo Nazis" and "All lives matter" are coming from two very different places. One is a basic observation that both sides of a particular conflict are acting like idiots and both have dangerous ideologies...the other is coming from a place of not wanting to have to acknowledge inconvenient realities that may challenge one's own political platform.

It becomes even more hypocritical when the people who claim to oppose "Black Lives Matter" because it doesn't say "All Lives Matter", get right on board with the "Blue Lives Matter" movement.

For one to admit that systemic racism has put certain communities in a position where they're economically trapped (by no fault of their own) is to admit that conservative economic policies really drop the ball in terms of providing upward mobility for groups that have been left in a rut due to generations of mistreatment. People who are staunch economic conservatives don't seem to want to do that, so it's easier just to pretend that "they could get themselves out of that situation if they just worked hard enough", and in order to preserve that mentality, that also means not acknowledging that certain systematic problems have impacted them more than everyone else.

Just because I am aware of this nation's past failures and the issues of the day, it doesn't mean I want to get in bed with rainbow haired weirdos who ramble about the cisnormative, white, patriarchy all day.

...you're creating a false choice here. It not an "A or B" situation where one has to be all one way or the other. There is nuance. You can say "you know, the democrats are right about certain things and certain social programs and acceptance could really help certain people" without having to be in bed with the rainbow hair weirdos.

Just because white on black racism has been a far bigger issue in this country historically, it doesn't mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to racism of a different shade.

...no, and nobody is claiming you should, they're just claiming that it makes more sense to put the lion's share of the focus where the lion's share of the problem exists.

If you had one kid with a scraped knee, and another with meningitis and a 103 fever, paying extra special attention to the condition of the latter doesn't mean you don't care about the former.

In short, your arguments are like the guy with the camera in this cartoon:

iu

Well, for the reasons I mentioned above, this cartoon doesn't really apply to me, however for the sake of consistency, I would like to point out that the majority of counter protesters that showed up to that smash-up weren't actually antifa-members...there were Antifa, BLM, Women's rights groups, LGBT rights groups...and just plain ol' college kids who don't like Nazis. However, much like the left wing media used their tactic of only showing the bad that the alt-right was doing, the right wing media had their tactic which was to make it seem as if the alt-righters and antifa were the only two groups to show up so they could depict it as a "Nazi v. Commie" battle when it fact that wasn't entirely accurate. They didn't want to come out on the side of the Nazis (for obvious reasons), but at the same time, they couldn't pretend to side with left-wingers (of any kind) either because that hurts their street cred with their viewer base.
 
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MoonlessNight

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What I don't get about the position that "America is the only nation founded on a creed" and similar sorts of ideas is that if what makes an American an American is his beliefs (as opposed to his lineage or his legal status), then it follows that if someone doesn't hold to the "American creed" then he isn't an American.

The fact is that the majority of Americans do not believe in any "American creed", be it the 1917 creed or any similar statement expressing "American" values. Beyond the number of people who do not believe in equality, there are many who do not believe in the value of the constitution, the value of Democracy, the honor of the sacrifices of the patriots and so on. If we say that what makes an American an American is holding to these values, then anyone who disagrees with any of them isn't an American.

But no one seems to seriously believe that. If they did, we would have at minimum loyalty oaths and other tests to ensure that holders of public office are actually "American" in the sense that they uphold these values. If the "American creed" were actually seen as essential, we would see people discussing the possibility of deporting everyone who dissented from it (as they would essentially be illegal immigrants after all; being non-Americans unjustly living in America). But nothing close to this ever happens.
 
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Rion

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Actually, it's not...for one, I was one of the folks claiming that I disliked both of those groups and taking flak for it. If you'll recall, that was one of those rare days where Rion & Rob were on the same side of a debate.

I didn't say you did. I said it is like that. It is similar. It is a comparison.

Second, the two scenarios aren't moral equivalents. The "I oppose both Antifa and Neo Nazis" and "All lives matter" are coming from two very different places. One is a basic observation that both sides of a particular conflict are acting like idiots and both have dangerous ideologies...the other is coming from a place of not wanting to have to acknowledge inconvenient realities that may challenge one's own political platform.

I never said they were the same scenarios. I said that this situation is like X, and not like Y. That doesn't mean X and Y are the same.

For one to admit that systemic racism has put certain communities in a position where they're economically trapped (by no fault of their own) is to admit that conservative economic policies really drop the ball in terms of providing upward mobility for groups that have been left in a rut due to generations of mistreatment. People who are staunch economic conservatives don't seem to want to do that, so it's easier just to pretend that "they could get themselves out of that situation if they just worked hard enough", and in order to preserve that mentality, that also means not acknowledging that certain systematic problems have impacted them more than everyone else.

You realize that prior to the Great Society poverty rates were in sharp decline, yes?

poverty-rate-historical1.png


I believe it was you (and correct me if I'm wrong) that said you make close to six-digits a year. Allow me to explain something to you, then, as someone who grew up poor: you actually qualify for more assistance if the father is not in the house. Enough so that it encourages single parent households.

People claim it's because of prisons, but the reverse is true. Studies show that children of fatherless homes end up in prison more often, and if you look at a chart, you'll see that the prison rate spikes roughly 20~ years after the spike in single parent households:

iu


Really gets those almonds activated.

iu


Not only does it affect mental, social, and economic health, but it can even physically harm the child.

...you're creating a false choice here. It not an "A or B" situation where one has to be all one way or the other. There is nuance. You can say "you know, the democrats are right about certain things and certain social programs and acceptance could really help certain people" without having to be in bed with the rainbow hair weirdos.

No, I am saying that you are creating a false choice here. Either I accept that the problem is systematic racism in America or I'm like an ALM person. I'm saying I can reject that America's this deeply, systematic racist country because things are much more complicated than the CRT people want to believe.
 
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SummerMadness

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Are we still pushing the absent black father myth?

Opinion | Black Dads Are Doing Best of All
Graphic
The Atlantic’s Ta-Nehisi Coates pointed out in 2013: “The drop in the birthrate for unmarried black women is mirrored by an even steeper drop among married black women. Indeed, whereas at one point married black women were having more kids than married white women, they are now having less.” This means that births to unmarried black women are disproportionately represented in the statistics.

Now to the mythology of the black male dereliction as dads: While it is true that black parents are less likely to marry before a child is born, it is not true that black fathers suffer a pathology of neglect. In fact, a C.D.C. report issued in December 2013 found that black fathers were the most involved with their children daily, on a number of measures, of any other group of fathers — and in many cases, that was among fathers who didn’t live with their children, as well as those who did.

The dangerous myth of the ‘missing black father’

 
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ThatRobGuy

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You realize that prior to the Great Society poverty rates were in sharp decline, yes?

Well, as the old saying goes "correlation does not equal causation"...that statement applies to this particular subject matter.

I've seen the argument that the implementation of the Great Society legislation package was to blame for the stagnation of poverty reduction in the US during that time period. That's not necessarily accurate.

While it's true that some of the policies could be on the border of enabling and creating dependence, there were a number of other key things happening from 1959-1973 that can explain much of the initial sharp drop off in poverty that seemed to halt in the mid-70's.

I believe it was you (and correct me if I'm wrong) that said you make close to six-digits a year. Allow me to explain something to you, then, as someone who grew up poor: you actually qualify for more assistance if the father is not in the house. Enough so that it encourages single parent households.

I'm aware of that...and in no way did I say that we should be implementing policies that foster dependence... However, the GOP doesn't share my sentiment on that. They want to yank the rug out from underneath them completely and simply blame in on a "culture problem" and place the entire blame on them for their situation.

Essentially, spend generations getting kicked in the dirt, and then put all the onus on them to "fix it".
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Oh, and that great society infographic appears to be incorrect...here's the actual data from the census site...

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html
(hstpov2.xls)

It's cherry picking the particular subset of data that makes the case against The Great Society legislation.
That particular infographic is only looking at the white families (the range that drops from 18.5 - 8.5 in that time period). The black community didn't experience any poverty drop that significant pre-Great Society.

For the black families, the biggest drop in poverty was during the great society legislation package (and the 5 years following), it dropped from 50% down to 31%...and pretty much held there until it crept back up in the upper 30%'s due to both the recession and the implementation of "Reaganomics"
 
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KCfromNC

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Oh, and that great society infographic appears to be incorrect...here's the actual data from the census site...

You'd think that this happening time and time again would make people reconsider their views. For some reason that doesn't seem to happen.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Economists are mathematicians and social SCIENTISTS attempting to model human behavior as relates to economy. True, there are a billion unknowns but there are some things that are known and some conditions which can be modeled provided you have the data.

It mystifies me that you think that this is an argument in support of blindly trusting the pronouncements of economists.

As a parallel comparison, there are billions of things that I don't know about the galaxy. But I do know a couple of things, like the fact that comets exist. Yet I'd hardly think if I told you that a comet was going to crash into the Earth tomorrow that you'd believe me.
 
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Rion

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You're quoting a racist to claim something is false? Okay.

Well, as the old saying goes "correlation does not equal causation"...that statement applies to this particular subject matter.

I've seen the argument that the implementation of the Great Society legislation package was to blame for the stagnation of poverty reduction in the US during that time period. That's not necessarily accurate.

While it's true that some of the policies could be on the border of enabling and creating dependence, there were a number of other key things happening from 1959-1973 that can explain much of the initial sharp drop off in poverty that seemed to halt in the mid-70's.



I'm aware of that...and in no way did I say that we should be implementing policies that foster dependence... However, the GOP doesn't share my sentiment on that. They want to yank the rug out from underneath them completely and simply blame in on a "culture problem" and place the entire blame on them for their situation.

Essentially, spend generations getting kicked in the dirt, and then put all the onus on them to "fix it".

Nor did I say it was the sole cause. Of course it's perfectly fine for you to make false generalizations and then accuse others of doing the same.

Oh, and that great society infographic appears to be incorrect...here's the actual data from the census site...

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html
(hstpov2.xls)

It's cherry picking the particular subset of data that makes the case against The Great Society legislation.
That particular infographic is only looking at the white families (the range that drops from 18.5 - 8.5 in that time period). The black community didn't experience any poverty drop that significant pre-Great Society.

For the black families, the biggest drop in poverty was during the great society legislation package (and the 5 years following), it dropped from 50% down to 31%...and pretty much held there until it crept back up in the upper 30%'s due to both the recession and the implementation of "Reaganomics"

Or you could at hstpov4.xls and see where they got the data from.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Nor did I say it was the sole cause. Of course it's perfectly fine for you to make false generalizations and then accuse others of doing the same.

It sounded that way when you posted this (along with the info-graphic)
You realize that prior to the Great Society poverty rates were in sharp decline, yes?

Apologies if you were't attempting to link the two.

Or you could at hstpov4.xls and see where they got the data from.

I'll have to open it later when I'm on my PC at home...I don't have any apps that will open xls files on the device I'm on at the moment. Do you have a brief summary of what is provided in hstpov4.xls?

In hstpov2.xls that I linked yesterday, the white family poverty rate lined up exactly with your info-graphic which leads me to believe that was the data set they were using. However, the black poverty rate was barely on a downward trajectory at all prior to the Great Society legislation. Basically, white poverty was in a sharp decline (as expected in the rebound period after the war economy from WW2 dried up...which is typical...it's booming during the war, after the war ends, many of the war jobs do as well and the economy takes a downward turn while adjusting to that. But then when it rebounds, unemployment and poverty take a sharp decline...for those whom people will give jobs to), black poverty was barely going down at all prior to that. Which would actually make sense considering that many of Great Society legislation initiatives were aimed specifically at anti-discrimination measures. In that rebound period where the economy was booming, prior to the great society package, the black community was seeing almost none of the benefits of that. A good job market only helps if the employer isn't sticking signs in the window that say that "your kind" need not apply.
 
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