Geology challenge *repost*

[Jet Black]

you are getting off topic John, and using what seems to be your usual tactic.

 

[JohnR7]

I am not changing the goalposts and I didn't ask for any, you are the one who is hopelessly off topic, not me. lets go back to the original challenge:

Your looking for a scientist who is not a christian who believes the YEC?

 

[euphoric]

What does that mean: "without using religion or religious texts as a fallback". Does that mean you get to change the rules and move the goal posts anytime you want

There are lots of Christian Geologist that do not accept evolution and who dispute the 4.5 billion year age for the earth.

The church I attend happens to be GAP. But you asked for a YEC Geologists and I found you some.

You can't legitimately be this obtuse. You're deliberately missing the point to try to gain troll points here. I can think of no other rational explanation.

It's very simple. The opening post asked for references to geologists who believed the earth to be young (less than ten thousand years old) for non-religious reasons. The reason for this stipulation is also clear. If the evidence for a young earth is obvious to an impartial observer, as so many YEC groups maintain that it is, then we should be able to identify at least one geologist who has arrived at that conclusion independent of religious conviction. Not a thousand or even a hundred, just one.

You have managed to derail a thread for a couple pages now. Certainly not one of your more Herculean efforts that go on for page after page, but a respectable job of derailing an otherwise useful point. Now do you have anything to contribute to the topic?

-brett

 

[euphoric]

Your looking for a scientist who is not a christian who believes the YEC?

Unbelievable.

-brett

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

The Bible is not evidence? You have to start with something.

You mean you want me to find a geologist who created something out of nothing. Even with a Phd, I think he would no longer be a scientist if he tried to create something out of nothing.

Is there not some sort of proceedure people have to follow in order to be a scientist?

Perhaps I should have said scientific evidence. The particular interpretation of the Bible that leads to belief in a young earth and global flood is the only "evidence" YECs have or seem to need. I wonder why an old earth creationist keeps trying to hijack threads that discuss the problems with YEC.

To get back on the topic, are there any geologists who were not religious and became YECs because of scientific evidence for a young earth and global flood? I think not. The scientific evidence speaks so overwhelming against and young earth and global flood that it has convinced many geologists who wanted to believe otherwise. I don't see how this same evidence could convince a geologist who didn't have a deep seated need to believe in a young earth and global flood that they were correct scientific interpretations of the data. Nebraska Man seemed to think he could come up with someone but we are still waiting. Whenever I have looked into these "conversions" to YEC the religious conversion always preceeded the acceptance of a young earth and global flood. Maybe there is an exception but I am yet to see it.

As far as getting Ph.D.'s I think that you will find that the Ph.D. work of these guys says nothing about young earth creationism.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Jet Black]

Your looking for a scientist who is not a christian who believes the YEC?

that is indeed what the first post of the thread asked for, not just christian, but not religious at all.

 

[JohnR7]

that is indeed what the first post of the thread asked for, not just christian, but not religious at all.

So the hypothesis then is that this particular deception is so great that only a true christian would be able to excape from it?

 

[Jet Black]

So the hypothesis then is that this particular deception is so great that only a true christian would be able to excape from it?

I see you are avoiding the question again.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Let's look at what you presented (emphasis mine, of course):

"They have defined their syntheses of Flood geology and the GUC by the correlation of time boundaries in the GUC to those in Biblical history (Austin, 1994; Austin and Wise, 1994; Baumgardner, 1990; Snelling, Scheven, Garner, Ernst, Austin, Garton, Scheven, Wise, and Tyler, 1996)."

Now let's take a gander at the entire point of the thread (emphasis mine, of course):

Find a geologist who disagrees with the current accepted age of the Earth (~4.5 billion years), but does so for reasons independent of any religious convictions.

If they are trying to redefine geologic time and certain events, and they are using "Biblical history" as their reference point, then that is obviously off the topic of the thread.

And besides the point, Austin was discussed on this forum before the server crash and it was shown how his articles were deliberately deceptive and arrived at false conclusions because of what he wanted to be true versus what actually was true.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Your looking for a scientist who is not a christian who believes the YEC?

First of all, it's geologist, not scientist.

Second, it's not necessarily a geologist who believes in YEC, just a geologist who disagrees with the accepted age of the Earth--but does so independent of any religious beliefs.

It doesn't necessarily mean they don't have to be Christian. Just that they will have had to made the determination of the age of the Earth solely based on the physical evidence.

 

[JohnR7]

First of all, it's geologist, not scientist.
It doesn't necessarily mean they don't have to be Christian. Just that they will have had to made the determination of the age of the Earth solely based on the physical evidence.

The point is, that even today you can find geologists who believe the evidence supports Bissops Usshler and Lightfoot's theory.

For a while support among geologists was becoming rather thin, but there does seem to be some revival in recent years. More and more geologists support the YEC model based on geological evidence.

 

[Arikay]

You make those statements, yet you havent found a Geologist that can meet his Challenge.
Very interesting indeed.

 

[ifriit]

For a while support among geologists was becoming rather thin, but there does seem to be some revival in recent years. More and more geologists support the YEC model based on geological evidence.

John, that's the point of the thread--name one.

 

[JohnR7]

John, that's the point of the thread--name one.

I already named two geologists that believe the geological evidence supports YEC.

 

[JohnR7]

You make those statements, yet you havent found a Geologist that can meet his Challenge.
Very interesting indeed.

I found two geologist that believe the geological evidence supports YEC and there are plenty more. That would be a neat degree to get. I was looking at some of the University web sites and some of the field trips that they get to take.

 

[Jet Black]

I already named two geologists that believe the geological evidence supports YEC.

they are religious though. apparently you had better check that cloak again for the meanings of the words.

 

[ifriit]

I already named two geologists that believe the geological evidence supports YEC.

John, you are mistaken--the geologists you cited believe in the YEC model for religious reasons as has been mentioned several times in this thread. Dr. Wise has clearly stated that the evidence has nothing to do with his position. Dr. Austin is a member of the ICR, a group that requires all its members to discard evidence in favor of its dogmatic religious positions. Neither of these two fits the criteria.

Come on, John, name one.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I found two geologist that believe the geological evidence supports YEC and there are plenty more. That would be a neat degree to get. I was looking at some of the University web sites and some of the field trips that they get to take.

John, you are doing an admirable job of missing the point. The geologists you have all named are young-Earth creationists. They believe the Earth is young because their theology demands it.

What I am looking for are people with no theological basis for the age of the Earth, but who disagree with the current accepted age of ~4.5 billion years.

The point of this thread could not be any more clear. Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or you just don't get it.

 

[JohnR7]

They believe the Earth is young because their theology demands it.

You have failed to prove that. They are geologists and claim the evidence supports YEC. Their personal beliefs is not the issue here. We are talking about what they believe geology supports.

 

[JohnR7]

Dr. Wise has clearly stated that the evidence has nothing to do with his position.

I was under the impression that Dr. Wise feels that the evidence supports the YEC.

Dr. Austin is a member of the ICR, a group that requires all its members to discard evidence in favor of its dogmatic religious positions.

If the evidence does not line up with the word of God, then the evidence is not relyable.