Geocentric Early Church Father Quotes (Long Read)

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Daniel Marsh

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How does a geocentric model account for the transit, and phases of Venus as seen from earth? Likewise, how does a geocentric model account for lunar eclipses?

-CryptoLutheran
OF ASTRONOMY AND ASTROLOGY
DCCXCVII.
Astronomy is the most ancient of all sciences, and has been the introducer of vast knowledge;
it was familiarly known to the Hebrews, for they diligently noted the course of the heavens, as God
said to Abraham: “Behold the heavens; canst thou number the stars?” etc. Haven’s motions are
threefold; the first is, that the whole firmament moves swiftly around, every moment thousands of
leagues, which, doubtless, is done by some angel. `Tis wonderful so great a vault should go about
in so short a time. If the sun and stars were composed of iron, steel, silver, or gold, they must needs
suddenly melt in so swift a course, for one star is greater than the whole earth, and yet they are
innumerable. The second motion is, of the planets, which have their particular and proper motions.
The third is, a quaking or a trembling motion, lately discovered, but uncertain. I like astronomy
and mathematics, which rely upon demonstrations and sure proofs. As to astrology, `tis nothing.
DCCXCVIII.
Astronomy deals with the matter, and with what is general, not with manner of form. God
himself will be alone the Master and Creator, Lord and Governor, though he has ordained the stars
for signs. And so long as astronomy remains in her circle, whereunto God has ordained her, so is
220
Table Talk Martin Luther
she a fair gift of God; but when she will step out of her bounds—that is, when she will prophecy
and speak of future things, how it will go with one, or what fortune or misfortune another shall
have, then she is not to be justified. Chiromancy we should utterly reject. In the stars is neither
strength nor operation; they are but signs, and have, therefore, just cause to complain of the
astrologers, who attribute unto them what they have not. The astrologers commonly ascribe that to
the stars, which they ought to attribute to the planets, that announce only evil events, except that
star which appeared to the wise men in the east, and which showed that the revelation of the Gospel
was at the door.
In the year 1538, the Seigneur Von Minckwitz made a public oration in honor of astrology,
wherein he sought to prove that the sentence in Jeremiah, chap. x: “Be not dismayed at the signs
of heaven,” applied not to astrology, but to the images of the Gentiles. Luther said hereupon: These
passages may be quibbled with, but not overthrown. Jeremiah speaks as Moses did of all the signs
of heaven, earth, and sea; the heathen were not so silly as to be afraid of the sun or moon, but they
feared and adored prodigies and miraculous signs. Astrology is no art; it has no principle, no
demonstration, whereupon we may take sure footing; `tis all haphazard work; Philip Melancthon,
against his will, admits unto me, that though, as he says, the art is extant, there are none that
understand it rightly. They set forth, in their almanacs, that we shall have no snow in summer time,
nor thunder in winter; and this the country clowns know as well as the astrologers. Philip Melancthon
says: That such people as are born in ascendant Libra, in the ascension of Liber towards the south,
are unfortunate people. Whereupon I said: The astrologers are silly creatures, to dream that their
crosses and mishaps proceed not from God, but from the stars; `tis hence, they are not patient in
their troubles and adversities. Astrology is uncertain; and as the predicamenta are feigned words
in Dialectica, even so astronomy has feigned astrology; as the ancient and true divines knew nothing
of the fantasies and divinity of the school teachers, so the ancient astronomers knew nothing of
astrology. The nativities of Cicero and of others were shown me. I said: I hold nothing thereof, nor
attribute anything unto them. I would gladly have the astrologers answer me this: Esau and Jacob
were born together, of one father and one mother, at one time, and under equal planets, yet they
were wholly of contrary natures, kinds, and minds. What is done by God, ought not to be ascribed
to the stars. The upright and true Christian religion opposes and confutes all such fables. The way
of casting nativities is like the proceedings in popedom, whose outward ceremonies and pompous
ordinances are pleasing to human wit and wisdom, as the consecrated water, torches, organs,
cymbals, singing, ringing, but withal there’s no certain knowledge. An astrologer, or horoscope
monger, is like one that sells dice, and bawls: Behold, here I have dice that always come up twelve.
If once or twice their conjectures tell, they cannot sufficiently extol the art; but as to the infinite
cases where they fail, they are altogether silent. Astronomy, on the contrary, I like; it pleases me
by reason of her manifold benefits.
General prophecies and declarations, which declare generally what in future shall happen accord
not upon individuals and particular things.
When at one time many are slain together in a battle, no man can affirm they were all born
under one planet, yet they die altogether in one hour, yea, in one moment.
DCCXCIX.
God has appointed a certain and sure end for all things, otherwise Babylon might have said: I
will remain and continue; and Rome: To me is the government and rule given without ceasing. To
221
Table Talk Martin Luther

Alexander and others were given empires and kingdoms, yet astrology taught not that such great
kingdoms were to be raised, nor how long they were to last.
Astrology is framed by the devil, to the end people may be scared from entering into the state
of matrimony, and from every divine and human office and calling; for the star-peepers presage
nothing that is good out of the planets; they affright people’s consciences, in regard of misfortunes
to come, which all stand in God’s hand, and through such mischievous and unprofitable cogitations
vex and torment the whole life.
Great wrong is done to God’s creatures by the star-expounders. God has created and placed the
stars in the firmament, to the end they might give light to the kingdoms of the earth, make people
glad and joyful in the Lord, and be good signs of years and seasons. But the star-peepers feign that
those creatures, of God created, darken and trouble the earth, and are hurtful; whereas all creatures
of God are good, and by God created only for good, though mankind makes them evil, by abusing
them. Eclipses, indeed, are monsters, and like to strange and untimely births. Lastly, to believe in
the stars, or to trust thereon, or to be affrighted thereat, is idolatry, and against the first
commandment.http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Luther Table Talk.pdf
 
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PaulCyp1

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Yes, this is what educated people of the time believed, since this is what the scientists of the time told them. Just as we do today. I don't see what any of this has to do with flat earth beliefs however.
 
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Resha Caner

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What nonsense.
Recognising that the Earth is a tiny planet among several orbiting the Sun, which is just one star among millions in our galaxy, and that galaxy is just one of countless numbers in the universe, and yet the whole story of creation finding its locus in that tiny insignificant rock, fills me with awe and wonder at God's wisdom and power and majesty and above all, His love.

The claim may be distorted, but there were some interesting religious tensions involved between geocentrism and heliocentrism. Unlike Galileo, who was devoutly Catholic, Kepler was Lutheran. The result was some Catholic polemic against him. Oddly enough, the Lutherans spoke rather poorly of Copernicus/Kepler as well. The result appears to be that some of the astronomers' comments about a sun-centered universe, which included poetic comments about God, appeared to some to be sun worship. I have no idea what their actual beliefs were, but old accusations die hard.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Yes, this is what educated people of the time believed, since this is what the scientists of the time told them. Just as we do today. I don't see what any of this has to do with flat earth beliefs however.

It all shows that people understand the Bible from their cultural, historical, experiences, Scientific background.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Lunar eclipses are not a problem for the geocentric model.

The phases of Venus are a problem, but nobody knew about them until Galileo's telescope.

I suppose a lunar eclipse wouldn't be problematic for the geocentric model come to think of it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Aphrodite the goddess of love. To whom the world has wondered after because of her brightness and glimmering beauty. The Greeks even pondered that Venus may even be a double planet with her brightness being such. Known as phrosphorus the dawn star and Hesperus as the evening star. How does the geocentric model account for the phases of Venus. If you go with Galileo’s line of thought well he demanded a heliocentric view. But with either model the phases still remain the same. So with that argument you never prove either way. But with aether you can. And that was proved long ago. All tests came back null. Conclusion the earth is at rest.

What on God's green earth are you talking about?

-CryptoLuthean
 
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ViaCrucis

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Stellar parallax means that the geocentric model can't be correct.

But actually the heliocentric model is not quite right either: the sun is not in the centre of the Universe.

And to be even more technical it's not even the center of the solar system, as the barycenter of our solar system isn't located directly inside the center of the sun--the sun wobbles and orbits around the barycenter due to the gravitational influence of the planets. The barycenter is located within the sun's mass, but not it's not in the center.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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What nonsense.
Recognising that the Earth is a tiny planet among several orbiting the Sun, which is just one star among millions in our galaxy, and that galaxy is just one of countless numbers in the universe, and yet the whole story of creation finding its locus in that tiny insignificant rock, fills me with awe and wonder at God's wisdom and power and majesty and above all, His love.

But what about the free mason lizard people?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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OF ASTRONOMY AND ASTROLOGY
DCCXCVII.
Astronomy is the most ancient of all sciences, and has been the introducer of vast knowledge;
it was familiarly known to the Hebrews, for they diligently noted the course of the heavens, as God
said to Abraham: “Behold the heavens; canst thou number the stars?” etc. Haven’s motions are
threefold; the first is, that the whole firmament moves swiftly around, every moment thousands of
leagues, which, doubtless, is done by some angel. `Tis wonderful so great a vault should go about
in so short a time. If the sun and stars were composed of iron, steel, silver, or gold, they must needs
suddenly melt in so swift a course, for one star is greater than the whole earth, and yet they are
innumerable. The second motion is, of the planets, which have their particular and proper motions.
The third is, a quaking or a trembling motion, lately discovered, but uncertain. I like astronomy
and mathematics, which rely upon demonstrations and sure proofs. As to astrology, `tis nothing.
DCCXCVIII.
Astronomy deals with the matter, and with what is general, not with manner of form. God
himself will be alone the Master and Creator, Lord and Governor, though he has ordained the stars
for signs. And so long as astronomy remains in her circle, whereunto God has ordained her, so is
220
Table Talk Martin Luther
she a fair gift of God; but when she will step out of her bounds—that is, when she will prophecy
and speak of future things, how it will go with one, or what fortune or misfortune another shall
have, then she is not to be justified. Chiromancy we should utterly reject. In the stars is neither
strength nor operation; they are but signs, and have, therefore, just cause to complain of the
astrologers, who attribute unto them what they have not. The astrologers commonly ascribe that to
the stars, which they ought to attribute to the planets, that announce only evil events, except that
star which appeared to the wise men in the east, and which showed that the revelation of the Gospel
was at the door.
In the year 1538, the Seigneur Von Minckwitz made a public oration in honor of astrology,
wherein he sought to prove that the sentence in Jeremiah, chap. x: “Be not dismayed at the signs
of heaven,” applied not to astrology, but to the images of the Gentiles. Luther said hereupon: These
passages may be quibbled with, but not overthrown. Jeremiah speaks as Moses did of all the signs
of heaven, earth, and sea; the heathen were not so silly as to be afraid of the sun or moon, but they
feared and adored prodigies and miraculous signs. Astrology is no art; it has no principle, no
demonstration, whereupon we may take sure footing; `tis all haphazard work; Philip Melancthon,
against his will, admits unto me, that though, as he says, the art is extant, there are none that
understand it rightly. They set forth, in their almanacs, that we shall have no snow in summer time,
nor thunder in winter; and this the country clowns know as well as the astrologers. Philip Melancthon
says: That such people as are born in ascendant Libra, in the ascension of Liber towards the south,
are unfortunate people. Whereupon I said: The astrologers are silly creatures, to dream that their
crosses and mishaps proceed not from God, but from the stars; `tis hence, they are not patient in
their troubles and adversities. Astrology is uncertain; and as the predicamenta are feigned words
in Dialectica, even so astronomy has feigned astrology; as the ancient and true divines knew nothing
of the fantasies and divinity of the school teachers, so the ancient astronomers knew nothing of
astrology. The nativities of Cicero and of others were shown me. I said: I hold nothing thereof, nor
attribute anything unto them. I would gladly have the astrologers answer me this: Esau and Jacob
were born together, of one father and one mother, at one time, and under equal planets, yet they
were wholly of contrary natures, kinds, and minds. What is done by God, ought not to be ascribed
to the stars. The upright and true Christian religion opposes and confutes all such fables. The way
of casting nativities is like the proceedings in popedom, whose outward ceremonies and pompous
ordinances are pleasing to human wit and wisdom, as the consecrated water, torches, organs,
cymbals, singing, ringing, but withal there’s no certain knowledge. An astrologer, or horoscope
monger, is like one that sells dice, and bawls: Behold, here I have dice that always come up twelve.
If once or twice their conjectures tell, they cannot sufficiently extol the art; but as to the infinite
cases where they fail, they are altogether silent. Astronomy, on the contrary, I like; it pleases me
by reason of her manifold benefits.
General prophecies and declarations, which declare generally what in future shall happen accord
not upon individuals and particular things.
When at one time many are slain together in a battle, no man can affirm they were all born
under one planet, yet they die altogether in one hour, yea, in one moment.
DCCXCIX.
God has appointed a certain and sure end for all things, otherwise Babylon might have said: I
will remain and continue; and Rome: To me is the government and rule given without ceasing. To
221
Table Talk Martin Luther

Alexander and others were given empires and kingdoms, yet astrology taught not that such great
kingdoms were to be raised, nor how long they were to last.
Astrology is framed by the devil, to the end people may be scared from entering into the state
of matrimony, and from every divine and human office and calling; for the star-peepers presage
nothing that is good out of the planets; they affright people’s consciences, in regard of misfortunes
to come, which all stand in God’s hand, and through such mischievous and unprofitable cogitations
vex and torment the whole life.
Great wrong is done to God’s creatures by the star-expounders. God has created and placed the
stars in the firmament, to the end they might give light to the kingdoms of the earth, make people
glad and joyful in the Lord, and be good signs of years and seasons. But the star-peepers feign that
those creatures, of God created, darken and trouble the earth, and are hurtful; whereas all creatures
of God are good, and by God created only for good, though mankind makes them evil, by abusing
them. Eclipses, indeed, are monsters, and like to strange and untimely births. Lastly, to believe in
the stars, or to trust thereon, or to be affrighted thereat, is idolatry, and against the first
commandment.http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Luther Table Talk.pdf

If you think Luther's geocentrism is bad, just wait till you hear the insane nonsense he has to say about other things, including the absolutely atrocious and grotesquely antisemitic remarks he made during his life.

Here's the thing, quoting Luther at a Lutheran isn't exactly meaningful. We know that Luther said a lot of things, he said a lot of things we disagree with, he said a lot of things that not only do we disagree with, but are morally obligated to repudiate as Christians.

Luther isn't some infallible figure in Lutheranism. So I don't understand why some seem to think that simply quoting Luther is of any significance at all.

Lutherans don't follow Martin Luther, we follow Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Chris V++

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I didn't read all the replies, but isn't our own solar system orbiting a super massive black hole at the center of our Milky Way? So in that regard our sun is in motion. But at the same time these quotes do make one wonder about the authority of the writings of the ECF.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I would never have looked read all of just these. Thank you so much for posting these!

I use a text reading program from my teaching days for long posts.
Some operating systems may have this built in or maybe you can find one online.
Let me know if you find one and where.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I didn't read all the replies, but isn't our own solar system orbiting a super massive black hole at the center of our Milky Way? So in that regard our sun is in motion. But at the same time these quotes do make one wonder about the authority of the writings of the ECF.

The ECF are also the same people among other educated people who made copies of the NT to send to other churches. So, if we can not trust them, then we really can not fully trust the NT itself.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I didn't read all the replies, but isn't our own solar system orbiting a super massive black hole at the center of our Milky Way? So in that regard our sun is in motion. But at the same time these quotes do make one wonder about the authority of the writings of the ECF.

It shouldn't make you question the authority or importance of the fathers. It just means that they were regular people of their own time and culture.

St. Clement in his epistle to the Corinthians mentions the phoenix as though it were a real bird that lived in some remote part of the world, but Clement isn't writing as an ornithologist, he's using the phoenix as a symbol of resurrection. There's no reason to think Clement isn't trustworthy as a disciple of the apostles and a valuable churchman just because he isn't an ornithologist.

"Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed." - Clement ch. 25

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I'm going to stick with The Holy Scriptures and The Holy Church Father Writings and not the Lies of occultist freemasons.
Amen to that. The truth about the geocentric earth was revealed to us by God through Moses and the Prophets

The Greeks were the ones who cooked up the heliocentric model. Newsflash: God didn’t reveal the truth through the pagans/Greeks.

Why should we believe the pagans about their heliocentric universe, when God already revealed that it was geocentric?
 
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What nonsense.
Recognising that the Earth is a tiny planet among several orbiting the Sun, which is just one star among millions in our galaxy, and that galaxy is just one of countless numbers in the universe, and yet the whole story of creation finding its locus in that tiny insignificant rock, fills me with awe and wonder at God's wisdom and power and majesty and above all, His love.

It may fill you with wonder, but that is not described in the Bible nowhere.
 
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d taylor

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Amen to that. The truth about the geocentric earth was revealed to us by God through Moses and the Prophets

The Greeks were the ones who cooked up the heliocentric model. Newsflash: God didn’t reveal the truth through the pagans/Greeks.

Why should we believe the pagans about their heliocentric universe, when God already revealed that it was geocentric?

Because they love to place man (and his words) above the truth of the Bible
 
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It may fill you with wonder, but that is not described in the Bible nowhere.
Neither is the complexity of all the different systems working together in the human body. Doesn't change the reality of that fact.
 
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Neither is the complexity of all the different systems working together in the human body. Doesn't change the reality of that fact.

The full account of God's creation is in Genesis 1
Heaven and earth, water, sun, moon and stars.

No planets, no outer space/universe, no star suns
 
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