Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude 6&7 what do these passages mean? Why should we care?

[Major1]

I have, otherwise we would not be having this discussion.


How do you ignore the fact that there is a distinct difference between demons and fallen angels?
#1. Demons/unclean spirits wander the earth and #2. Seek to possess bodies.
Matthew 8:28-32
Angels(good or bad) do not need to "possess" bodies, but rather can appear at will in human form. I have already pointed out some of the relevant Scriptures to you. Despite being fallen angels, they haven't lost any of their abilities and are not confined to the earth. Job 1:6 is a clear indicator that both good and bad angels have access to heaven while demons do not.

Look throughout the NT and compare where it refers to unclean spirits/demons with that of angels. The terms are not used interchangeably nor are they backwards compatible.
2 Peter 2:4 , Jude 1:6 , Matthew 25:41 , Galatians 1:8

Revelation 12:9: "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

This verse states Satan is the devil and the serpent from Genesis 3. He was thrown down to earth with his "angels." The evil spirits or demons described in the Bible appear to be angels who joined Satan in his rebellion against God.

Another helpful passage is found in Matthew 25:41. Jesus teaches, ....
"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Those with the devil are called angels, the same beings called demons or evil spirits in other passages. Therefore, we can conclude demons are fallen angels.

Believe as you wish, it is Your choice!

 

[Major1]

We are agreeing way too much here. That additional way was Genesis 6.

I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[Major1]

Could I not say the only reason you see it as you do is because you need it to be that way or there’s not much left to hang your hat on?


It was fallen angels not demons.

Yes, I guess you could say that. I actually believe demons and fallen angels are the same thing, just like tomato and tamato!

Actually I was not leaning one way or the other and really did not care back 40 or 50 years ago. It was only when some church members asked about it in a Bible study did I do the work and through that work come to the conclusion that I have shared with you.

If you choose to continue to believe as you do, I can not fault you. I just can not come the the conclusion you are putting forth. Just too many Scriptures to refute your thesis for me.

 

[Major1]

Glad we agree on something. What was that sin that only got some of them bound?

Rebellion was rooted in Pride IMO.

On the other hand, in my studies I have not found that angels have a sin nature, which means that they do not have to contend with fleshly desires. And therefore it would appear that there is no excuse for an angel when they sin, and thus, the consequences of their sin, is irreversible. Could this possibly be why those fallen angels do not get a second chance?

 

[Major1]

I believe I have repeatedly made this point.






No pain here but you are wrong on this point.

I believe Hebrews 1:14 was after Pentecost.

Acts 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,

Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

Acts 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

Acts 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

Please don’t tell me you believe angels went away with the original apostles???? That might cause me pain!

Yes of course The Holy Spirit is our helper how do you determine from that angels are no longer used by God?

Why would Jesus say He was sending the Holy Spirit to be our helper IF we in fact had the help of angels. Now, excluding the Revelation, where do we find any angel activity after the Holy Spirit comes?
Furthermore, God watches over us, hears our prayers, has given us his word, and he tells us to watch for our own selves to not be deceived by corruption and sin. Furthermore, he tells how to overcome sin and all of this is done without a guardian angel because He have given us the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts. Therefore, what would a guardian angel do? Just sit and drink coffee with us? If so, like those in the past, we would never know who was and who was not a guardian angel

 

[Postvieww]

Why would Jesus say He was sending the Holy Spirit to be our helper IF we in fact had the help of angels. Now, excluding the Revelation, where do we find any angel activity after the Holy Spirit comes?
Furthermore, God watches over us, hears our prayers, has given us his word, and he tells us to watch for our own selves to not be deceived by corruption and sin. Furthermore, he tells how to overcome sin and all of this is done without a guardian angel because He have given us the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts. Therefore, what would a guardian angel do? Just sit and drink coffee with us? If so, like those in the past, we would never know who was and who was not a guardian angel

I believe I gave about 6 examples of angel activity after Pentecost none were in the book of Revelation. You ignored those and ask me “Now, excluding the Revelation, where do we find any angel activity after the Holy Spirit comes?”


I at least try to back up what I write here with scripture. Your point of the Holy Spirit’s help in no way proves God gave up using angels for his purposes. Please show any scriptural support for your belief angels are no longer relevant in God’s dealings with man.

 

[Postvieww]

Rebellion was rooted in Pride IMO.

On the other hand, in my studies I have not found that angels have a sin nature, which means that they do not have to contend with fleshly desires. And therefore it would appear that there is no excuse for an angel when they sin, and thus, the consequences of their sin, is irreversible. Could this possibly be why those fallen angels do not get a second chance?

No fallen angel gets a second chance.

I can agree Rebellion was what caused the angels to choose satan over God. Thus all that rebelled with satan are fallen angels. That still leaves the question what sin did only some of them commit that got only some portion of the fallen angels chained.

I believe you have admitted on this forum not all fallen angels are in chains. I do not believe there are degrees of rebellion that made the difference. The angels made a choice, serve God or Satan, I see no middle ground calling for a lesser punishment. All will wind up in the lake of fire, but only some are bound in chains right now.

I believe you have a dilemma. There is an answer, but you will not accept it as possible, therefore you have no answer to my question.

Believe me brother I have studied this too and did not just leap to my conclusion lightly.

I have a theory and opinion on why this is so controversial. You may correct me if you believe I am wrong.

I believe most of the people who so strongly oppose this view have removed much of the supernatural dealings of God with man from the scriptures. One example is your statement “I personally do not believe that angels have an earthly ministry today”. Other examples are supernatural dealings with men such as healings and gifts of the Spirit or just miracles in our day. Many Christians really do not like to acknowledge satan, fallen angels or demons are real. Trust me if anyone ever witnesses a manifestation of an evil spirit they will believe it.

Satan has not yet gone away nor have fallen angels, demons or the workings of a supernatural God dealing with His people sometimes in supernatural ways.

 

[Postvieww]

Major1

I challenge you to take the time to with an open mind listen to the video by Chuck Missler. I believe it is an excellent scriptural look at this issue. I don‘t expect a conversion by you but I would respectfully ask you at least listen and consider.

 

[Major1]

No fallen angel gets a second chance.

I can agree Rebellion was what caused the angels to choose satan over God. Thus all that rebelled with satan are fallen angels. That still leaves the question what sin did only some of them commit that got only some portion of the fallen angels chained.

I believe you have admitted on this forum not all fallen angels are in chains. I do not believe there are degrees of rebellion that made the difference. The angels made a choice, serve God or Satan, I see no middle ground calling for a lesser punishment. All will wind up in the lake of fire, but only some are bound in chains right now.

I believe you have a dilemma. There is an answer, but you will not accept it as possible, therefore you have no answer to my question.

Believe me brother I have studied this too and did not just leap to my conclusion lightly.

I have a theory and opinion on why this is so controversial. You may correct me if you believe I am wrong.

I believe most of the people who so strongly oppose this view have removed much of the supernatural dealings of God with man from the scriptures. One example is your statement “I personally do not believe that angels have an earthly ministry today”. Other examples are supernatural dealings with men such as healings and gifts of the Spirit or just miracles in our day. Many Christians really do not like to acknowledge satan, fallen angels or demons are real. Trust me if anyone ever witnesses a manifestation of an evil spirit they will believe it.

Satan has not yet gone away nor have fallen angels, demons or the workings of a supernatural God dealing with His people sometimes in supernatural ways.

The only way to find a middle ground here is through the Scriptures. I will work toward that end and then your problem will be with the Word of God and not me.

That being said, your comment was.........
"I do not believe there are degrees of rebellion that made the difference. The angels made a choice, serve God or Satan, I see no middle ground calling for a lesser punishment. All will wind up in the lake of fire, but only some are bound in chains right now. "

IMO the rebellion came from the sin of Pride. Having the ability to chose, they made the wrong choice.

2 Peter 2:4.......
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment."

We see here that there are some angels who rebelled and are so evil and bad that God has restricted their earthly activity. They are being held as Peter says until the Judgment. That says to me that there is definitily degrees of judgment just as there is degrees of torments in hell.

Now if there are demons who are working on this earth, which I believe that there are, and we just saw that there are Biblically some fallen angels who are incarcerated, then it is clear that the ones on earth are not being punished as are those who were "CAST DOWN TO HELL AND DELIVERED INTO CHAINS AND DARKNESS."

So I think that you can see that I really do not have a dilemma at all according the Word of God.
Some demons are active and some are chained. That fact alone confirms the fact that their rebellion led to a degree of punishment worse than those active on earth today.

YES. They will ALL wind up in the lake of fire!

Then you said.........
"Satan has not yet gone away nor have fallen angels, demons or the workings of a supernatural God dealing with His people sometimes in supernatural ways. "

Absolutely correct! I have said nothing to you that would cause you to think any different that that.

I ask you to also to consider Rev. 17:17........
"God put into their hearts (Men) to accomplish His will".

I can not correct your opinion. That is impossible as it is YOUR thinking. All I can do is say to you that I do not agree with the bottom line you support which is FALLEN ANGELS HAD SEX WITH HUMANS.

I believe that I have posted more than enough Scriptures to show Biblically that that is just not possible. I know that YOU and many others want that to be the case and I suspect it is because of some deep personal thought where that idea has become more believable that the Word of God. That is not a correction to your thinking, only my opinion.

Always good to talk to someone who can communicate civilly.

 

[Major1]

I believe I gave about 6 examples of angel activity after Pentecost none were in the book of Revelation. You ignored those and ask me “Now, excluding the Revelation, where do we find any angel activity after the Holy Spirit comes?”


I at least try to back up what I write here with scripture. Your point of the Holy Spirit’s help in no way proves God gave up using angels for his purposes. Please show any scriptural support for your belief angels are no longer relevant in God’s dealings with man.

I am sorry. Maybe your postings were in one of those long ones and I did not read it all the way through.

Now brother, when have I NOT posted Scripture to support my comments????

My comment was that after the Holy Spirit came, then angle activity dimished.

Remember, the church at Colossae had been invaded by false teachers who were teaching a false humility and the worship of angels, claiming special mystic insights by way of visions in connection with their worship of angels.

Co. 2:18...........
"Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind."

This was demonic because it was usurping the preeminent place and sufficiency of Christ as Savior and Lord. The claim was, He is not enough for salvation and spirituality. What you need is to worship angels, etc.

NO. As I originally said, it was my personal opinion that when the Holy Spirit came as our comforter, Jesus said that HE would lead us unto all truth. There is no Scripture to support my opinion and it is just that, my opinion.

 

[Waterwerx]

Revelation 12:9: "And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

This verse states Satan is the devil and the serpent from Genesis 3. He was thrown down to earth with his "angels." The evil spirits or demons described in the Bible appear to be angels who joined Satan in his rebellion against God.

I've already used Scripture to show you that Satan and his angels still have access to heaven and have not been cast down and restricted to the earth as in Revelation 12:9, which occurs in the middle of the 7-year tribulation period. So you can erase that from your supporting theory.
You say the evil spirits/demons "appear" to be angels when I have shown you otherwise in the Scripture that the terms used for fallen angels and those used for evil spirits/demons are not backwards compatible.
While you point out Revelation 16:13-14 as so-called proof, you fail to read Revelation 9:13-14 , which is even more evidence that there is a distinction between fallen angels and demons/evil spirits. They are not the same, period. Otherwise, I would expect them being CONSISTENTLY described as "spirits of angels" OR "spirits of demons" in Revelation 16:14 in conjunction with the rest of the Old Testament and New Testament. Then there's Revelation 9:20 "not worship angels" instead of "not worship demons" which is lumped together in that sentence as being unable to see nor hear nor walk, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since angels are capable of seeing, hearing, and walking, among other things... The fact that fallen angels are never referred to as demons and are instead ALWAYS mentioned as "angels" in conjunction with negative descriptions/acts should be a no-brainer.

Those with the devil are called angels, the same beings called demons or evil spirits in other passages. Therefore, we can conclude demons are fallen angels.

Believe as you wish, it is Your choice!

You can ignore everything I've posted here and continue basing your entire theory off of superficial study of the Scripture. I'm not going to argue with someone that can't be bothered to use a concordance to look things up. Is it really that difficult to make two columns on a sheet of paper, list each use and study their context?

 

[Major1]

I've already used Scripture to show you that Satan and his angels still have access to heaven and have not been cast down and restricted to the earth as in Revelation 12:9, which occurs in the middle of the 7-year tribulation period. So you can erase that from your supporting theory.
You say the evil spirits/demons "appear" to be angels when I have shown you otherwise in the Scripture that the terms used for fallen angels and those used for evil spirits/demons are not backwards compatible.
While you point out Revelation 16:13-14 as so-called proof, you fail to read Revelation 9:13-14 , which is even more evidence that there is a distinction between fallen angels and demons/evil spirits. They are not the same, period. Otherwise, I would expect them being CONSISTENTLY described as "spirits of angels" OR "spirits of demons" in Revelation 16:14 in conjunction with the rest of the Old Testament and New Testament. Then there's Revelation 9:20 "not worship angels" instead of "not worship demons" which is lumped together in that sentence as being unable to see nor hear nor walk, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since angels are capable of seeing, hearing, and walking, among other things... The fact that fallen angels are never referred to as demons and are instead ALWAYS mentioned as "angels" in conjunction with negative descriptions/acts should be a no-brainer.


You can ignore everything I've posted here and continue basing your entire theory off of superficial study of the Scripture. I'm not going to argue with someone that can't be bothered to use a concordance to look things up. Is it really that difficult to make two columns on a sheet of paper, list each use and study their context?

I will and Thanks. We will see you again somewhere else then.

 

[Postvieww]

I personally do not believe that angels have an earthly ministry today.

My comment was that after the Holy Spirit came, then angle activity dimished.

Thanks for explaining your position on angels today, but your first post did not say diminished. Frankly I see no reason from scripture to believe God has diminished their activity . Again we can agree to disagree.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

We see angels all through the Bible. And the scriptures warns us to be careful how we entertain strangers, for we may entertain angels unaware. Maybe some people here on this thread will encounter one and know it. I'll pray for that.

 

[Major1]

Thanks for explaining your position on angels today, but your first post did not say diminished. Frankly I see no reason from scripture to believe God as diminished their activity . Again we can agree to disagree.

Thanks for explaining your position on angels today, but your first post did not say diminished. Frankly I see no reason from scripture to believe God as diminished their activity . Again we can agree to disagree.

John 14:25-26..........
“I have told you this while I’m still with you. However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you."

All I am saying is that since we have the Holy Spirit who is in fact God, why then do we think that we also need the ministry of an angel?

Scripture nowhere states that an angel is “assigned” to an individual. It is true that in times past angels were sometimes sent to individuals, but there is no mention of that being a permanent assignment.
The belief in guardian angels has been around for a long time, but there is no explicit scriptural basis for it.

It seems to me that Paul was warning us of somethin in Galatians 1:8...................
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. "

 

[Postvieww]

We see angels all through the Bible. And the scriptures warns us to be careful how we entertain strangers, for we may entertain angels unaware. Maybe some people here on this thread will encounter one and know it. I'll pray for that.

A friend of mine knows some one who believes an angel appeared while he was praying in the woods. No one should have been there the "angel" appeared dressed as anyone else , spoke commenting on his praying in the woods and was gone as if in thin air. I believe far too many Christians have eliminated belief in the supernatural as a reality today from their lives. As Major1 said the Holy Spirit is our helper but I believe God can and does use angels as our protectors as He chooses.

 

[Major1]

We see angels all through the Bible. And the scriptures warns us to be careful how we entertain strangers, for we may entertain angels unaware. Maybe some people here on this thread will encounter one and know it. I'll pray for that.

If you encountered one today, how would you know if it was a good angel or a fallen angel?

Fallen angels can deceive us by appearing as good beings, even spirits of people we are familiar with.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15, ...........
"No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

 

[Postvieww]

John 14:25-26..........
“I have told you this while I’m still with you. However, the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything. He will remind you of everything that I have ever told you."

All I am saying is that since we have the Holy Spirit who is in fact God, why then do we think that we also need the ministry of an angel?

Scripture nowhere states that an angel is “assigned” to an individual. It is true that in times past angels were sometimes sent to individuals, but there is no mention of that being a permanent assignment.
The belief in guardian angels has been around for a long time, but there is no explicit scriptural basis for it.

It seems to me that Paul was warning us of somethin in Galatians 1:8...................
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. "

I don't believe I have ever said an angel is assigned to every individual there would be no basis in scripture for that but then I wouldn't say it is impossible, I'm sure God as a lot of angels to do His biding and I doubt very seriously they have been on a 2000 year vacation or just sewing white garments.

 

[Major1]

A friend of mine knows some one who believes an angel appeared while he was praying in the woods. No one should have been there the "angel" appeared dressed as anyone else , spoke commenting on his praying in the woods and was gone as if in thin air. I believe far too many Christians have eliminated belief in the supernatural as a reality today from their lives. As Major1 said the Holy Spirit is our helper but I believe God can and does use angels as our protectors as He chooses.

Several years ago while on vacation in the Smokey Mountains I was fishing in a little river. All of a sudden I hooked a fish and pulled it in. It was a 25 pound trout!!!

Then as I went to take it off the hook a black bear ran up and grabbed it and ate it.

What is the moral of this story. Don't believe everything that people tell you. Most people tend to make things up so as to appear to be more spiritual than everyone else.

If you doubt that, then I would say to everyone that you have never been in a church meeting for a time of "Testimonies". Try it some time and see what I am talking about. Especially the elderly.

 

[Postvieww]

If you encountered one today, how would you know if it was a good angel or a fallen angel?

Fallen angels can deceive us by appearing as good beings, even spirits of people we are familiar with.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15, ...........
"No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

So you believe the answer is to lump any supernatural activity into the Evil side? Judge all things by the word of God. Know the scriptures, pray for the discerning of spirits.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

If you think you see one ask him if Jesus is come in the flesh, that should do it..