• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude 6&7 what do these passages mean? Why should we care?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Postvieww, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married

    Very similar statement to what a preacher friend told me one time when discussing this very issue.


    He said “ I cannot with scripture dispute what you have said but I choose not to believe it”.


    The angels were not designated “son of God” because they were good or bad it was because they were created by God, yes even the fallen ones.


    Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.


    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.






    Let me ask you a similar question to one you ask someone else.


    Did God deny he made the anointed cherub when iniquity was found?

     
  2. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

    646
    +248
    United Ch. of Christ
    Single
    Then you need to consider "all" of the Scripture and not just part of it.

    I believe you are ignoring the Scripture I pointed out in my previous post where I gave examples of angels taking on a physical human form. Obviously, this contradicts YOUR theory instead of His Words.

    That's because it wasn't referring to the Nephilim. It's referring to the act performed by some of the fallen angels that resulted in producing the Nephilim, which is why these particular angels were imprisoned.
    Jude 1:6-7
    "And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as(i.e. LIKE, SIMILAR TO) Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

    The unique term used to describe the heavenly bodies/abode Christians will be clothed in is the exact same term used for describing the bodies/abode which the fallen angels had left.
    2 Corinthians 5:2 and Jude 1:6 "oiketerion"

    Incorrect. OT believers were never referred to as "sons of Elohim". Isaiah 43:6 is mentioned as being an exception, but the term in question isn't even used there.
    :expressionless:
     
  3. dysert

    dysert Member

    +2,194
    Christian
    Married
    If you *really* want to know, I recommend the book "The Unseen Realm" by Michael Keiser. He goes into great lengths about these verses, and what he comes away with is very well supported with end notes and Scripture. It's an excellent, but deep, book on these passages.
     
  4. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for the heads up, I am familiar with Michael Heiser.

    Dr. Michael Heiser | Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    The notion that demons can "produce" real bodies and have real sex with real women would invalidate Jesus' argument for the authenticity of His resurrection. Jesus assured His disciples in Luke 24:39 that ...........
    "a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have".

    By your theory then, Jesus is lieing.

    If indeed a demon could produce flesh and bones, Jesus' argument would not only be flawed, it would be misleading. In fact, it might be logically argued that the disciples did not see the post-resurrection appearances of Christ but rather a demon masquerading as the resurrected Christ.

    I would strongly suggest that you do some more study on what you are proposing.

    Now, please consider Genesis 1:24 carefully...........
    "Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so."

    Is that true or is it not?

    Furthermore, demons are nonsexual, nonphysical beings and, as such, are incapable of having sexual relations and producing physical offspring. To say that demons can create bodies with DNA and fertile sperm is to say that demons have creative power — which is an exclusively divine prerogative. I am perplexed at how you can not understand that ????

    Consider the consequences. If demons could have sex with women in ancient times, we would have no assurance they could not do so in modern times. Nor would we have any guarantee that the people we encounter every day are fully human. While a Biblical worldview does allow for fallen angels to possess unsaved human beings, it does not support the notion that a demon-possessed person can produce offspring that are part-demon, part-human.

    Genesis 1:24 makes it clear that all of God's living creations are designed to reproduce "according to their own kinds."

    How can you just throw away those Scriptures in order to substantiate your opinion???
     
  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    NO!

    Why would He have to deny what Lucifer chose to do. It is called Freedom of Choice.

    I think that you need to realize that God had nothing to do with sin. He never has and never will.

    Believe the Bible that says in James 1:17..........
    " every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father".

    No sin darkened Heaven when Lucifer was created, and no sin entered for a long time afterward. Lucifer was perfect in love, in obedience, in all his ways—in the beginning—perfect as God Himself.

    Lucifer then became puffed up over his own beauty, and this is where sin came into existence, saith the Lord. The Word of God proves this—Lucifer’s heart was lifted up. It was his own spirit that caused it. Using his free choice in the wrong way, he gave his spirit over to self-gratification.

    He was then judged by God but there was no reason for God to deny the He created him because the Bible says that everything God created was good.
     
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    NO!

    Why would He have to deny what Lucifer chose to do. It is called Freedom of Choice.

    I think that you need to realize that God had nothing to do with sin. He never has and never will.

    Believe the Bible that says in James 1:17..........
    " every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father".

    No sin darkened Heaven when Lucifer was created, and no sin entered for a long time afterward. Lucifer was perfect in love, in obedience, in all his ways—in the beginning—perfect as God Himself.

    Lucifer then became puffed up over his own beauty, and this is where sin came into existence, saith the Lord. The Word of God proves this—Lucifer’s heart was lifted up. It was his own spirit that caused it. Using his free choice in the wrong way, he gave his spirit over to self-gratification.

    He was then judged by God but there was no reason for God to deny the He created him because the Bible says that everything God created was good.

    Genesis 1:31...........
    "And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was VERY GOOD...........".
     
  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I agree with you. We can agree to disagree.

    The bottom line to me is really very simple. You will believe what you want to and really nothing I say will effect that.

    I respect you opinion and you are welcome to them.


    You said.........
    "I totally understand your line of thinking here, but I still maintain you are basing most of this on assumption not scriptural fact.'

    Actually that is not true IMO. All I know to do is explain the Scriptures. That is why I post so many of them.

    You said...................
    "I do not try to dispute Hebrews 1:14. I do dispute how you try to use that to imply angels have no physical form and are something akin to our concept of a ghost."

    CONTEXT my brother. Consider Hebrews 1:13........
    "But to which of the ANGELS said he at any time..........."

    Angels are SPIRTS. I for one do not believe in ghosts at all.

    Then we have................

    "The context of Luke 24:39 is Jesus’s physical form."

    You see, right there you are denying the Scriptures which you have already stated that I
    " but I still maintain you are basing most of this on assumption not scriptural fact."

    Luke 24:39...........
    "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

    I realize that you want to believe what you know, however I am perplexed at how you can dismiss the words of Jesus in that verse. He declares to us the truth, that those appearances to which He was now likened by the disciples, and spirits in general, have not flesh and bones.

    Then we have your comment of..................
    "So when you say that absolutely fallen angels do not have the capability to have intercourse because angels of God do not marry, I believe you have stepped beyond specific knowledge given us in scripture."

    Actually I think that it is just the opposite. I am saying that that is what you are doing.

    You are IMO rejecting the Scriptures and instead saying what you want them to say.

    Again, back to your 1st comment, I am basing everything on the Scriptures just for the fact that I do not know what angels can do or not do.

    I only know what the Scriptures tell me they do or can not do.

    Now allow me to ask you a question. You have rejected Matthew 22:30 which I believe says that angels are ASEXUAL and can not have sex. You are saying that they can and actually did reproduce witht he "daughters of men"

    Now, If that is true and if they can reproduce, why then can’t faithful angels in Heaven have sexual relations? One more thing, I am saying that Jesus said that there is no sex in Heaven. But If demons can have sex, why can’t humans in Heaven?
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican

    That could be, I just do not recall.
     
  10. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married

    To keep it from being so lengthy I’ll address this one point first.

    I disagree with the premise of most of your question, about all I can agree with is “ Jesus said that there is no sex in Heaven”.

    You answered part of your own question “FAITHFUL” angels can’t have sex in heaven because Jesus said there is no marriage or sex if you prefer the term, in heaven.

    Fallen angels are not demons, another topic.

    There are no demons in heaven.

    There are no humans in heaven, only the departed spirits of dead believers. 2 Corinthians 5:8,

    Fallen angels rebelled and followed satan and only some of them took the extra step to co habit with human women.

    Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    1. All fallen angels are not in chains.

    2. The ones that are in chains made some choice that the rest of the fallen angels did not make . I can’t recall where you have actually addressed this point. Correct me if I’m wrong. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6


    I understand how you interpret Matthew 22:30. Just as you accuse me of denying the words of Jesus I accuse you of not dealing with the actual wording of the text and insert your own opinion.

    1. We are not talking about angels that are in heaven.

    2. We are not talking about anything that happened in heaven or will ever happen

    3. We are talking about fallen angels who don’t think twice about violating God’s order.

    4. You can’t show me one word in the text Of Matthew 22:30 that applies to a fallen angel on the earth.

    5. You can’t prove what the anatomy is of any of God’s creatures based on the statement there is no marriage in heaven.

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    We may disagree on what we think this verse means , but I do not believe we can disagree on what it says .

    It does not say that “angels are ASEXUAL and can not have sex.”

     
  11. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married

    Maybe it would help if you defined just exactly what you believe a spirit body to be.

    I believe the main point I’ve tried to make is that angels can manifest themselves in such a way that we mere humans can’t tell the difference. This in no way contradicts the fact that they are spirits.

    I said Hebrews 1:14 “speaks to angel’s purpose to mankind not how they can or cannot physically manifest themselves” explain how that is in error.
     
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Good point. The Bible repeatedly tells us about angels and the work God has given them to do. They are spiritual beings, the Bible says, who were created by God to do His will. That does not mean that they are visible and have a form or substance.

    Because they are spiritual and not physical beings, the angels usually are invisible and unseen by us.
    Nevertheless, the Bible also tells us that at times the angels have become visible.

    When God announced to the Virgin Mary that she would bear His Son, He used the angel Gabriel to convey the news to her in Luke 1:26-38. When Jesus’ birth was announced to the shepherds outside Bethlehem, “a great company of the heavenly host appeared … praising God” as seen in Luke 2:13.

    Many other examples from the Bible could be cited from the Old Test. Now I am really going to cause you some pain and consternation. I personally do not believe that angels have an earthly ministry today.

    I believe when Jesus assended to heaven and sent the Holy Spirit, He said the Holy Spirit would be our guide and helper.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    +2,302
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    You said..............
    "Fallen angels are not demons, another topic."

    I disagree with that idea. There is IMO no doubt these fallen angels are now known as the demons.

    We know that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, according to Matthew 25:41:........... “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

    Hermeneutically speaking, Jesus, by using the possessive word his makes it clear that these angels belong to Satan.

    Revelation 12:7-9 describes an end-times angelic battle between Michael and "his angels" and the devil and "his angels." From these and similar verses, it is clear that demons and fallen angels are synonymous.

    You reject the Biblical explination that the demons are the fallen angels due to the fact that Jude verse 6 declares the angels who sinned to be "bound with everlasting chains." However, it is clear that not all of the angels who sinned are "bound," as Satan is still free as recorded in 1 Peter 5:8.

    Why would God imprison the rest of the fallen angels, but allow the leader of the rebellion to remain free? It seems that Jude verse 6 is referring to God confining the fallen angels who rebelled in an additional way.

    While the Bible does not specifically say what happened to the souls of the Nephilim when they were killed, it is unlikely that God would destroy the Nephilim in the Flood only to allow their souls to cause even greater evil as the demons. The most biblically consistent explanation for the origin of the demons is that they are the fallen angels, the angels who rebelled against God with Satan.

    Now honestly, the only reason you argue the point of asexual angels told to us in Matt. 22:30 is because it destroys your theology of demons having sex with humans.

    I really hate to say this, but I just do not understand how you can dismiss the Scriptures so easily in order to believe what you want to believe.

    1st Corinthians 15:39,40 is very, very clear...........
    "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."

    Then Genesis 1:24...........
    And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.

    How can you read those Scriptures and still believe that demons/fallen angels had sex with humans????
     
  14. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married

    I believe I have repeatedly made this point.




    No pain here but you are wrong on this point.

    I believe Hebrews 1:14 was after Pentecost.

    Acts 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,

    Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

    Acts 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

    Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

    Acts 27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

    Please don’t tell me you believe angels went away with the original apostles???? That might cause me pain!

    Yes of course The Holy Spirit is our helper how do you determine from that angels are no longer used by God?
     
  15. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

    +26,550
    Protestant
    Private
    US-Others
    LOL! WOW! That is too funny.^_^
     
  16. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married

    Glad we agree on something. What was that sin that only got some of them bound?
     
  17. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married
    Could I not say the only reason you see it as you do is because you need it to be that way or there’s not much left to hang your hat on?:oldthumbsup:


    It was fallen angels not demons.
     
  18. Postvieww

    Postvieww Newbie

    +871
    Christian
    Married
    We are agreeing way too much here. That additional way was Genesis 6.
     
  19. Waterwerx

    Waterwerx Well-Known Member

    646
    +248
    United Ch. of Christ
    Single
    I have, otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

    How do you ignore the fact that there is a distinct difference between demons and fallen angels?
    #1. Demons/unclean spirits wander the earth and #2. Seek to possess bodies.
    Matthew 8:28-32
    Angels(good or bad) do not need to "possess" bodies, but rather can appear at will in human form. I have already pointed out some of the relevant Scriptures to you. Despite being fallen angels, they haven't lost any of their abilities and are not confined to the earth. Job 1:6 is a clear indicator that both good and bad angels have access to heaven while demons do not.

    Look throughout the NT and compare where it refers to unclean spirits/demons with that of angels. The terms are not used interchangeably nor are they backwards compatible.
    2 Peter 2:4 , Jude 1:6 , Matthew 25:41 , Galatians 1:8
     
  20. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

    +2,296
    United States
    Calvary Chapel
    Married
    Ancient humans had sex with non humans

    Title: Ancient humans had sex with non humans

    The article assumes this occurred with an early form of hominin being, for the simple reason they have absolutely no skeletal remains of the non-human species, referred to as the "ghost species".

    If only they had referenced Genesis 6, they would have seen when this took place and why there are no skeletal remains of the 'non-human' group.
     
Loading...