Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude 6&7 what do these passages mean? Why should we care?

[Major1]

and is there anything fitting at least 135 meter giant?!

Numbers 13:33 "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.",

Enoch 7:11-12 "And the women conceiving brought forth giants, Whose stature was each three hundred cubits.",

Wikipedia (Biblical cubit) "The Near Eastern or Biblical cubit is usually estimated as approximately 457.2 mm (18 in)."

Blessings

That means the "giants" in Enoch would have been 450 feet tall. That is almost as large as the Ark!

 

[Major1]

I think I said 204 KNOWN angels that fell if you take the 200 from Enoch as valid. We just plain are not told of any others.

We know of 3 rebellions, that of man in Eden, the Gen 6 angels and Babel. Everyone else assumes an non mentioned rebellion by thinking the 1/3 of the stars that are pulled down by the dragon's tail is another rebellion of angels. They pull that verse totally out of context. EVERYTHING past Rev 4 is future from the start of the tribulation forward.

I would also suggest you do a search for what the OT references as the 'host of heaven'. Most references of it are directly tied to the paganism. A few times it is a reference to Yah's angels.

Here is an example:

De 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
2Ki 17:16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
2Ki 23:4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.
2Ki 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

The pagan deities in the sky, the planets, the constellations, the sun god and moon goddess are referenced as the pagan 'host of heaven/sky'. Could it be these that the dragon pulls 1/3 down? I believe it is and not some mythical other rebellion. I see it as a re-ordering of the principalities that side with the dragon once he is free from his prison. He is the father/ancestor of many of those Nephilim spirits. It is a dividing of the demonic realms, a kingdom divided against itself that can not stand.

If Lucifer is the son, when dad gets let out of prison to retake his lost position of authority, it will cause chaos in the ranks.

For you to suggest that God created 204 (Known) angels tells me how flawed your Bible understanding is.

It also shows how wrong the Book of Enoch is. The Book of Enoch uses unfamiliar terminology, referring to the "Lord of Spirits" and the "Head of Days." These terms are foreign to the Word of God.

The messiah is NOT directly mentioned. The ambiguous mention of what may or may not be the Lord Jesus in the Book of Enoch, is eerily reminiscent of Freemasonry who worship the "Great Architect" who to their teaching is ...an undefined, ambiguous, universal god. This is the false god of New Age. It is worthy to note that Christ's deity is not evidenced in the Book of Enoch in any way whatsoever.

 

[Yahu_]

For you to suggest that God created 204 (Known) angels tells me how flawed your Bible understanding is.

How many times are you going to misquote or twist references out of context.

I said 204 KNOWN angels that fell IF you take the 200 number of angels from Enoch. Those 200 would be those chained in Tartarus and four more bound at the Euphrates. That is 204 KNOWN fallen angels not 204 angels!

You need to pay better attention to your reading comprehension.

And IMO anyone that follows that the 'ben Elohyim' are sons of Seth is extremely flawed in biblical understanding.

 

[Major1]

How many times are you going to misquote or twist references out of context.

I said 204 KNOWN angels that fell IF you take the 200 number of angels from Enoch. Those 200 would be those chained in Tartarus and four more bound at the Euphrates. That is 204 KNOWN fallen angels not 204 angels!

You need to pay better attention to your reading comprehension.

And IMO anyone that follows that the 'ben Elohyim' are sons of Seth is extremely flawed in biblical understanding.

You are not serious are you?????

Aren't FALLEN angels still angels to begin with????

They were angels who rebelled against God and followed Satan. Come on brother, you are better than this!!!! You are just putting up a smoke screen of indignation and not responding to the question.

The point was and still is........."Where did you get the information of 204 FALLEN Angels"??????

 

[Yahu_]

You are not serious are you?????

Aren't FALLEN angels still angels to begin with????

They were angels who rebelled against God and followed Satan. Come on brother, you are better than this!!!! You are just putting up a smoke screen of indignation and not responding to the question.

The point was and still is........."Where did you get the information of 204 FALLEN Angels"??????

Already answered. I can only conclude you are not even reading my posts.

 

[Major1]

Already answered. I can only conclude you are not even reading my posts.

Well I missed it. Would you do it again so that we can all be enlightened?
Your original comment came from the Book of Enoch and since it is an OCCULTIC book of nonsense and un-Biblical teachings. I did not think that you would want to be associated with it.

Thanks !

 

[Major1]

2 Enoch 40
And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.

Chapter 65
And in those days Noah saw the earth that it had sunk down and its destruction was nigh. And he arose from thence and went to the ends of the earth, and cried aloud to his grandfather Enoch: and Noah said three times with an embittered voice: Hear me, hear me, hear me.’ And I said unto him: ‘Tell me what it is that is falling out on the earth that the earth is in such evil plight and shaken, lest perchance I shall perish with it?’ And thereupon there was a great commotion, on the earth, and a voice was heard from heaven, and I fell on my face. And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: ‘Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the Satans, and all their powers — the most secret ones — and all the power of those who practice sorcery, and the power of witchcraft, and the power of those who make molten images for the whole earth: And how silver is produced from the dust of the earth, and how soft metal originates in the earth. For lead and tin are not produced from the earth like the first: it is a fountain that produces them, and an angel stands therein, and that angel is pre-eminent.’ ...

Chapter 69
And after this judgement they shall terrify and make them to tremble because they have shown this to those who dwell on the earth. And behold the names of those angels [and these are their names: the first of them is Samjaza, the second Artaqifa, and the third Armen, the fourth Kokabel, the fifth Turael, the sixth Rumjal, the seventh Danjal, the eighth Neqael, the ninth Baraqel, the tenth Azazel, the eleventh Armaros, the twelfth Batarjal, the thirteenth Busasejal, the fourteenth Hananel, the fifteenth Turel, and the sixteenth Simapesiel, the seventeenth Jetrel, the eighteenth Tumael, the nineteenth Turel, the twentieth Rumael, the twenty-first Azazel. And these are the chiefs of their angels and their names, and their chief ones over hundreds and over fifties and over tens]. The name of the first Jeqon: that is, the one who led astray [all] the sons of God, and brought them down to the earth, and led them astray through the daughters of men. And the second was named Asbeel: he imparted to the holy sons of God evil counsel, and led them astray so that they defiled their bodies with the daughters of men. And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [the weapons of death to the sons of men] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men....



Those are some of the references to calling the Watchers as 'Satans' and the reference to the specific angel that was the serpent in Eden. He was one of the 200 Watchers bound for their sins. The serpent in Eden was one of the angels that left his estate and is BOUND for his sins. They are all SATANS.

Your concept that SATAN is a name is false. It is a title for a position, a role. There are more then 1 satan. Yes, a single individual has held that title since Babel, not since Eden. If you are going to use Enoch as a source, then you can't equate the serpent in Eden as HaSatan.

The ONLY reference that ties the current Satan with the serpent is a single reference to the 'ancient serpent' which is ASSUMED to mean the serpent in Eden verses the Cockatrice who is also an ancient serpent, an OT dragon but NOT the serpent in Genesis.

The other passage in scripture that people use to tie the serpent in Genesis with the current Satan is in Eze 28. It references the 'king of Tyrus', the god Melqart ('king of the city' in Tire) as a covering cherub and mentions walking in Eden but that is NOT the earthly Eden by the heavenly garden where the 'tree of life' exists in heaven. This same individual is referenced in a dream by Daniel as the 'winged lion' with the heart of a man that had his wings removed. And in the previous prophecy in Eze 28 to the 'prince of Tire', Baal, is specifically states you think you are a god but you are really a man. These are Nephilim, that are classified as man, born on earth, that think they are gods, not fallen angels.

Nothing from the Book of Enoch is acceptable.

If you do not have any information from the canon of Scriptures to validate your thesis I can not then do anything but ignore your theology completely as it has not Biblical support.

 

[Postvieww]

In my opinion, nothing from the book of Enoch is acceptable in correctly understanding the Bible.

Enoch is NOT included in Scriptures because it is OCCULTIC and anti-Christ in its teaching.

We tend to want to have "conspirecey's and mystery's" in our lives because it causes excitement and IMO that comes from Hollywood.

Most of the time, the real answer is right in front of us. IMO, the “sons of God” refers to the descendents of Seth, while the “daughters of men” refers to the descendents of Cain. In other words, the righteous line of Seth intermarried with the unrighteous line of Cain resulting in the corruption of society.

Simple as that! All this other stuff is coming from or own imagination. That is not a comment of disrespect to anyone, just the way I think.

Major1 said:

In my opinion, nothing from the book of Enoch is acceptable in correctly understanding the Bible.

Jude quoted the book of Enoch. At the very least that is evidence it was a book accepted and read to some degree in that day.

Enoch is NOT included in Scriptures because it is OCCULTIC and anti-Christ in its teaching.

As evidenced by?


The Ethiopian Church has it in their canon and even though you reject it, it is allowed on this forum for that reason. Your opinions are welcome here as well.

We tend to want to have "conspirecey's and mystery's" in our lives because it causes excitement and IMO that comes from Hollywood.

My opinion is, the fact that most refuse to accept even the possibility fallen angels could engage in such a sin is clear evidence the supernatural has been strip mined out of the scriptures to a large degree, which is a symptom of a larger problem when discussing supernatural aspects of scripture for today such as healing, gifts of the spirit, and casting out devils. I had a preacher friend tell me once he could not with scripture prove angels did not commit this act but that he chose not to believe it. I think that covers most people today on this topic.

Most of the time, the real answer is right in front of us. IMO, the “sons of God” refers to the descendents of Seth, while the “daughters of men” refers to the descendents of Cain. In other words, the righteous line of Seth intermarried with the unrighteous line of Cain resulting in the corruption of society.

As you stated this is your opinion. At least some scriptural support would be welcome, I see none here.

Simple as that! All this other stuff is coming from or own imagination. That is not a comment of disrespect to anyone, just the way I think.

No disrespect is taken.



Part Seven: The Sons of Seth and Daughters of Cain Theory Refuted

 

[toLiJC]

That means the "giants" in Enoch would have been 450 feet tall. That is almost as large as the Ark!

yes, but the holy scriptures haven't lied to the worshipers, yet worshipers have deceived themselves and one another when they have been too hasty with inferences, judgments, conclusions, opinions and decisions as to how they understand them, for example let's say there may also be a spiritual stature that is not measured by physical/material measures, but many worshipers haven't taken this into account/consideration

Revelation 21:15-17 "And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

i hope you don't think the dimensions of the wall of that place where all relevant, saved souls will (go to) live is literally 66 meters

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

Left their own habitation



2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house (3614) of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house (3614) not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The context of this verse shows “house” to be our earthly bodies.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (3613) which is from heaven:

The context of this verse shows “house “ to be our new heavenly bodies after the resurrection.

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation (3613), he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The word habitation is the same Greek word use in 2 Corinthians 5:2 which lends credence to the point the angels left their own heavenly bodies to engage in the human activity of fornication with strange flesh as outlined in Jude 7.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.



Strong's Concordance 3613

oikétérion: a habitation

Original Word: οἰκητήριον, ου, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: oikétérion

Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kay-tay'-ree-on)

Short Definition: a dwelling-place, habitation

Definition: a dwelling-place, habitation, abode.



Strong's Concordance 3614

oikia: a house, dwelling

Original Word: οἰκία, ας, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: oikia

Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kee'-ah)

Short Definition: a house, household

Definition: a house, household, dwelling; meton: goods, property, means.

in principle you think/reason well, but why exactly physical/material measures?!, why not some spiritual?!, what if the prophets meant some spiritual things when they spoke about "cubits"?!

1 Corinthians 2:7-14 "we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world(i.e. which none of the servants/workers of the world of human(666) spirituality/religiosity) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man(i.e. of any man that has practiced the faith wrong), the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world(i.e. not the spirit of the system of human(666) spirituality/religiosity), but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man(i.e. the man practicing the faith according to the world of human(666) spirituality/religiosity) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned(i.e. only if the faith is practiced right enough)."

in principle the way you interpret the expression "strange flesh" is reasonable, but why exactly physical body?!, why not something spiritual?!, how is it possible that there be some living flesh that is not driven by any spirit, either the Holy One, or God forbid a wicked one?!, or what if the biblical "sinful flesh" presented in Galatians 5 is actually something spiritual, not anything physical?!, because there had been Saints presented in the biblical scriptures that had never done any of the works of the "flesh" since They became permanently Holy, which proves there had been no living/active "sinful flesh" in Them, therefore, isn't it possible that the biblical "sinful flesh" turn out to be something spiritual?!

Mark 7:18-23 "whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.",

James 3:5-10 " the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.",

Galatians 5:16-23 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Blessings

 

[Postvieww]

in principle you think/reason well, but why exactly physical/material measures?!, why not some spiritual?!, what if the prophets meant some spiritual things when they spoke about "cubits"?!

1 Corinthians 2:7-14 "we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world(i.e. which none of the servants/workers of the world of human(666) spirituality/religiosity) knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man(i.e. of any man that has practiced the faith wrong), the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world(i.e. not the spirit of the system of human(666) spirituality/religiosity), but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man(i.e. the man practicing the faith according to the world of human(666) spirituality/religiosity) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned(i.e. only if the faith is practiced right enough)."

in principle the way you interpret the expression "strange flesh" is reasonable, but why exactly physical body?!, why not something spiritual?!, how is it possible that there be some living flesh that is not driven by any spirit, either the Holy One, or God forbid a wicked one?!, or what if the biblical "sinful flesh" presented in Galatians 5 is actually something spiritual, not anything physical?!, because there had been Saints presented in the biblical scriptures that had never done any of the works of the "flesh" since They became permanently Holy, which proves there had been no living/active "sinful flesh" in Them, therefore, isn't it possible that the biblical "sinful flesh" turn out to be something spiritual?!

Mark 7:18-23 "whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.",

James 3:5-10 " the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.",

Galatians 5:16-23 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Blessings

I see your point; it is not my intent to eliminate the spiritual from this topic or any other. My goal with this thread is to dig into the scripture and determine from what is written did an event like this actually happen. Many oppose this view and there is nothing wrong with that but when the evidence is opinion such as God wouldn’t allow anything like that to happen, an answer like that is not sufficient for me I will ask why and say prove it. When people emphatically counter with angels don’t have genitals I say how do you know I’ve never seen and angel undressed. So I do dig in and try to determine what is meant by what is said. In this case I think there plenty enough evidence in scripture something happened that is beyond our ability in the natural mind to comprehend without relying on the book of Enoch. While I do believe that book has some relevance it is not necessary to make the case.


I do not pretend I know every nuance and how every detail occurred but I do believe I have sufficiently shown from scripture something supernatural happened in Genesis 6. Is the spiritual involved here? Most likely it is but I also believe something physical happened as well. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Major1]

yes, but the holy scriptures haven't lied to the worshipers, yet worshipers have deceived themselves and one another when they have been too hasty with inferences, judgments, conclusions, opinions and decisions as to how they understand them, for example let's say there may also be a spiritual stature that is not measured by physical/material measures, but many worshipers haven't taken this into account/consideration

Revelation 21:15-17 "And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

i hope you don't think the dimensions of the wall of that place where all relevant, saved souls will (go to) live is literally 66 meters

Blessings

Why would I not believe it????

Upon doing some calculations....which I really hate doing, it seems that the city will be a "cube" and have a circumference of 8,164 miles from one corner to the other.

The diameter would be 2600 miles from one side to the opposite side.

From the fatherest corner of the cube to the center would be 15oo miles from each corner to the center corner.

The city will actually be larger than the moon which is 2160 miles is diameter.

Now if that is what God says it will be, why would anyone doubt it?

Hasn't every single prophecy that God has made been fulfilled? Why would the size of this cith be any different?

 

[Postvieww]

Happy Birthday Major1!

 

[Major1]

Happy Birthday Major1!

Thanks.

 

[Major1]

yes, but the holy scriptures haven't lied to the worshipers, yet worshipers have deceived themselves and one another when they have been too hasty with inferences, judgments, conclusions, opinions and decisions as to how they understand them, for example let's say there may also be a spiritual stature that is not measured by physical/material measures, but many worshipers haven't taken this into account/consideration

Revelation 21:15-17 "And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

i hope you don't think the dimensions of the wall of that place where all relevant, saved souls will (go to) live is literally 66 meters

Blessings

That is my point! The information of giants being 300 ft. tall comes from a non-Biblical source and hence not from the Holy Scriptures at all.

It is the book of Enoch that is lieing!

 

[Postvieww]

This posting is not meant to imply what Justin wrote was on par with scripture, but it does show the understanding of these things in that day.



From “The Second Apology of Justin For the Christians”

Saint Justin Martyr: Second Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAPTER V -- HOW THE ANGELS TRANSGRESSED.



But if this idea take possession of some one that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not, as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this, too, I will solve. God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law--for these things also He evidently made for man--committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment. and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.

 

[toLiJC]

I see your point; it is not my intent to eliminate the spiritual from this topic or any other. My goal with this thread is to dig into the scripture and determine from what is written did an event like this actually happen. Many oppose this view and there is nothing wrong with that but when the evidence is opinion such as God wouldn’t allow anything like that to happen, an answer like that is not sufficient for me I will ask why and say prove it. When people emphatically counter with angels don’t have genitals I say how do you know I’ve never seen and angel undressed. So I do dig in and try to determine what is meant by what is said. In this case I think there plenty enough evidence in scripture something happened that is beyond our ability in the natural mind to comprehend without relying on the book of Enoch. While I do believe that book has some relevance it is not necessary to make the case.


I do not pretend I know every nuance and how every detail occurred but I do believe I have sufficiently shown from scripture something supernatural happened in Genesis 6. Is the spiritual involved here? Most likely it is but I also believe something physical happened as well. Thanks for your thoughts.

and what is the physical without the spiritual?!, do you really think that the physical elementary particles/units, which only compose the physical matter, are something without the spiritual, which not only created them, but also sustains them?!, St Paul explained it, namely that the Scripture is a spiritual book about the spiritual things that the worshipers/spiritual workers should know (1 Corinthians 2:12-13), which is why in it there are no instructions for how to construct buildings, cook dishes, have sex in different sex positions, nor for how to deal with any other suchlike thing, because the world has always been full of enough information about these things, because at least the "gentiles" have been the ones that have known these things and been a source of such an information, the physical is rather neutral as compared to the spiritual, the physical matter is just a structural/constructive substance, without which we would physically be/exist in a dark space without being able to physically see, hear, touch, etc., moreover, the biblical "earth" is actually the developed variety of life, which is why in the world of eternal life there is also an "earth" (Revelation 21:1)

the Heavenly Holy Angels are the ones that have won the eternal reward to live for many consecutive eternities since they were humans in this world for the last time in their respective times in previous eternities, because this is the only way humans can inherit and have eternal life for (as it were) ever and ever, so there is no way that it turn out any of them lost that reward within one single eternity, but there is a need of many (maybe at least millions of) consecutive eternities to pass so that such a soul is born as a human in this world who will began to sin afterward, because God has promised that such souls will not lose their reward, but there have been a lot of worshipers believing and professing that one third(33.3%) of the Heavenly Holy Angels will fall or already fell from the "heaven" becoming angels of satan, which is impossible, because if so many of them fell so easily, then it would not be possible for any soul to inherit eternal life for more than two consecutive single eternities

what ever does the physical have to do with "sin"?!, sin is spiritual at its core, and on the whole, the original sin is spiritual, which is the very sin and the cause/source of all other sins, if any human kills another physically (let's say) with a knife, then will it be right that we say the knife killed the victim, not the murderer?!, so it will also not be right to say that the physical body of the killer itself killed the victim, not the killer himself, so the physical is not sinful of itself, as it is written:

Romans 14:14-20 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean..... All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence."

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

Why would I not believe it????

Upon doing some calculations....which I really hate doing, it seems that the city will be a "cube" and have a circumference of 8,164 miles from one corner to the other.

The diameter would be 2600 miles from one side to the opposite side.

From the fatherest corner of the cube to the center would be 15oo miles from each corner to the center corner.

The city will actually be larger than the moon which is 2160 miles is diameter.

Now if that is what God says it will be, why would anyone doubt it?

Hasn't every single prophecy that God has made been fulfilled? Why would the size of this cith be any different?

where are you sure from that the inheritors of eternal life will not be hundreds of trillions - you know that such a great number of people cannot be fitted in such a small place, moreover, the "heaven" is hardly so narrow that the Heavenly paradise of eternal life cannot be billions of miles across

Blessings

 

[toLiJC]

That is my point! The information of giants being 300 ft. tall comes from a non-Biblical source and hence not from the Holy Scriptures at all.

It is the book of Enoch that is lieing!

if the book of Enoch is lying, then how did St Jude the Apostle quote it in his epistle?!

Jude 1:14-15 "Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.",

Enoch 2nd chapter "Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him."

The Book of Enoch the Prophet: Chapter I-XX

Blessings

 

[Postvieww]

and what is the physical without the spiritual?!, do you really think that the physical elementary particles/units, which only compose the physical matter, are something without the spiritual, which not only created them, but also sustains them?!, St Paul explained it, namely that the Scripture is a spiritual book about the spiritual things that the worshipers/spiritual workers should know (1 Corinthians 2:12-13), which is why in it there are no instructions for how to construct buildings, cook dishes, have sex in different sex positions, nor for how to deal with any other suchlike thing, because the world has always been full of enough information about these things, because at least the "gentiles" have been the ones that have known these things and been a source of such an information, the physical is rather neutral as compared to the spiritual, the physical matter is just a structural/constructive substance, without which we would physically be/exist in a dark space without being able to physically see, hear, touch, etc., moreover, the biblical "earth" is actually the developed variety of life, which is why in the world of eternal life there is also an "earth" (Revelation 21:1)

the Heavenly Holy Angels are the ones that have won the eternal reward to live for many consecutive eternities since they were humans in this world for the last time in their respective times in previous eternities, because this is the only way humans can inherit and have eternal life for (as it were) ever and ever, so there is no way that it turn out any of them lost that reward within one single eternity, but there is a need of many (maybe at least millions of) consecutive eternities to pass so that such a soul is born as a human in this world who will began to sin afterward, because God has promised that such souls will not lose their reward, but there have been a lot of worshipers believing and professing that one third(33.3%) of the Heavenly Holy Angels will fall or already fell from the "heaven" becoming angels of satan, which is impossible, because if so many of them fell so easily, then it would not be possible for any soul to inherit eternal life for more than two consecutive single eternities

what ever does the physical have to do with "sin"?!, sin is spiritual at its core, and on the whole, the original sin is spiritual, which is the very sin and the cause/source of all other sins, if any human kills another physically (let's say) with a knife, then will it be right that we say the knife killed the victim, not the murderer?!, so it will also not be right to say that the physical body of the killer itself killed the victim, not the killer himself, so the physical is not sinful of itself, as it is written:

Romans 14:14-20 "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean..... All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence."

Blessings

You probably should have left this out of your post.

toLiJC said:

the Heavenly Holy Angels are the ones that have won the eternal reward to live for many consecutive eternities since they were humans in this world for the last time in their respective times in previous eternities, because this is the only way humans can inherit and have eternal life for (as it were) ever and ever, so there is no way that it turn out any of them lost that reward within one single eternity, but there is a need of many (maybe at least millions of) consecutive eternities to pass so that such a soul is born as a human in this world who will began to sin afterward, because God has promised that such souls will not lose their reward, but there have been a lot of worshipers believing and professing that one third(33.3%) of the Heavenly Holy Angels will fall or already fell from the "heaven" becoming angels of satan, which is impossible, because if so many of them fell so easily, then it would not be possible for any soul to inherit eternal life for more than two consecutive single eternities

1.”the Heavenly Holy Angels are the ones that have won the eternal reward to live for many consecutive eternities”.

Angels were created by God to live forever they do not “earn, eternal reward”

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

2. “they were humans in this world for the last time in their respective times in previous eternities”

Chapter and verse please?

3. “there is no way that it turn out any of them lost that reward within one single eternity, but there is a need of many (maybe at least millions of) consecutive eternities to pass so that such a soul is born as a human in this world who will began to sin afterward”

What is your definition of eternity? Chapter and verse please?

4. “there have been a lot of worshipers believing and professing that one third(33.3%) of the Heavenly Holy Angels will fall or already fell from the "heaven" becoming angels of satan, which is impossible, because if so many of them fell so easily, then it would not be possible for any soul to inherit eternal life for more than two consecutive single eternities”

Chapter and verse explanation please?