Genesis 34: Simeon and Levi massacre inhabitants in Shechem

Ioannes

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One reason is that if God allowed them to “cleave to” the families of Caanan - they probably would have intermarried and disappeared as a “people”.

I'm not sure. They did ask that they become part of their people, that they join their culture and submit to their law and thus join their Covenant with God or am I wrong in this?
The circumcision through which they were to be enjoined with Israel sounds to me much like us Gentiles being baptised and enjoined with Christ's Church. Which is in turn the new Israel.
 
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JohnC2

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So then - was Jacob correct in his assessment of the probable response of the Caananites to this atrocity?

Note how there was no more mention of friendly relations and goodwill with the people of the land as we note up to that point....

Also note that not long after this - there was a famine and they all left for Egypt... We must note that the vast majority of Caananite people didn’t leave for Egypt - so apparently they had resources available that they were unwilling to share with Jacob’s family after this incident.... Jacob’s family had to go to Egypt to buy grain which means they couldn’t buy grain from anyone in their region... We have to infer that is because they wouldn’t sell it to them.

In the end - it all worked out to God’s purpose - but it’s not clean, neat, and tidy like a well crafted fable.

It’s messy - but sometimes God has to save you from yourself. We saw this with the Church in the USA starting in the 1950’s.. The church was massively “In bed” with government and primarily preached a “gospel” of morals, ethics, patriotism, duty, brotherhood of man, and civic responsibility.

Then what happened... God started driving a wedge in between The Church and Government. God started saving us from ourselves by separating us out again.... Soon after, The Church “rediscovered” salvation by Faith alone - and started leaving behind the “gospel” of egalitarianism, citizenship, duty, patriotism, ethics, and morals...
 
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icxn

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So then - was Jacob correct in his assessment of the probable response of the Caananites to this atrocity?
I think we can safely say so, but God caused fear to fall upon them so as not to attack Jacob. (Genesis 35:5)
Note how there was no more mention of friendly relations and goodwill with the people of the land as we note up to that point....

Also note that not long after this - there was a famine and they all left for Egypt... We must note that the vast majority of Caananite people didn’t leave for Egypt - so apparently they had resources available that they were unwilling to share with Jacob’s family after this incident.... Jacob’s family had to go to Egypt to buy grain which means they couldn’t buy grain from anyone in their region... We have to infer that is because they wouldn’t sell it to them.

In the end - it all worked out to God’s purpose - but it’s not clean, neat, and tidy like a well crafted fable.
It doesn't have to be clean, neat or tidy to communicate some other lesson. The interpretations given earlier did not have to tidy up the historical facts to fit the lesson.
It’s messy - but sometimes God has to save you from yourself. We saw this with the Church in the USA starting in the 1950’s.. The church was massively “In bed” with government and primarily preached a “gospel” of morals, ethics, patriotism, duty, brotherhood of man, and civic responsibility.

Then what happened... God started driving a wedge in between The Church and Government. God started saving us from ourselves by separating us out again.... Soon after, The Church “rediscovered” salvation by Faith alone - and started leaving behind the “gospel” of egalitarianism, citizenship, duty, patriotism, ethics, and morals...
Sorry, I'm not American, so I can't relate to the above and I can't say I understand the negative connotations you attach to morals, ethics, etc. For me, moral/ethical behavior is nothing else but the fulfillment of God's commandments. What is wrong with that?
 
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JohnC2

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You can be a very moral, ethical person without any belief in God. You can be a good citizen, very patriotic, love your wife and kids and yet hate Jesus and God the Father... In fact - many Atheists are fine people. They are friendly, smart, nice, kind, hard workers, love their family and their nation...

And it’s shocking to find out that obedience to God can sometimes take you in directions you would have never expected to go.... For example - many Christians and Christian churches get hung up over the genocide that occurred during the conquest of Caanan. Many get really hung up with Saul and David and the genocide that went on in their wars at God’s command. Some go so far as to deny the inspiration and attribution of those events to God... What they fail to understand is that Faith is obedience to God - not conformation with some moral or ethical standard... And those men were obedient to God.
 
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LizaMarie

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The other thing to remember is that The Bible isn’t a series of carefully and thoughtfully constructed moral and ethical fables developed by men for instruction and teaching. It’s not a collection of neat, tidy, and straight forward lessons.... It’s not Jewish Aesop’s fables by any means.

It is an account of what actually happened. And truth be told - if you were going to invent a series of instructive fables and cautionary tales for the purpose of instilling morals and ethics - you would NOT end up with the Bible...

So for example in this case - why would God allow this action? (And it’s pretty amazing that they even pulled this attack off against a walled city. How do 2 guys kill all the men in whole city? Obviously the men in the city knew them and didn’t think they were a danger until it was too late....)

One reason is that if God allowed them to “cleave to” the families of Caanan - they probably would have intermarried and disappeared as a “people”.

Along the same lines - God was enforcing a separation between the people of the land and Israel. The lesson there to the people of the land is “You must keep them at arm’s length”.. We see the same thing happen with Samson - where Samson primarily delivered Israel from themselves by driving a massive wedge of enmity between them and the Phillistines........
"How do 2 guys kill all the men in the whole city." I don't know but I attended an OT Bible study years back and I seem to remember the passage had it that all the men in the city had just been circumcised as per being tricked by Jacobs sons and were recovering(and I'm not sure how incapacitated that would make an adult male for a short while) and also yes they trusted and knew Jacob's sons. Also I think it was likely more than 2 men in the company of Jacob's sons.
 
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RDKirk

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"How do 2 guys kill all the men in the whole city." I don't know but I attended an OT Bible study years back and I seem to remember the passage had it that all the men in the city had just been circumcised as per being tricked by Jacobs sons and were recovering(and I'm not sure how incapacitated that would make an adult male for a short while) and also yes they trusted and knew Jacob's sons. Also I think it was likely more than 2 men in the company of Jacob's sons.

Abraham had a small army when he chased down Lot's kidnappers. Jacob should have been doing somewhat better.
 
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I was amazed at the timeliness of this post, OP! We’re studying Jacob (Israel) in my class and I touched on this take today!! Of course I toned it WAYYY down.

While I have no patristic backing, I see this story with Dinah at Shechem and Simeon’s behavior as a prelude of things to come. Simeon will be all too eager to slay his own brother, Joseph, with impunity later. One minute he uses violence to supposedly right a wrong, later he justifies violence to cover up bad behavior and deception. He’s a hot head who is reactive and instinctively violent. Not every Biblical story in itself is a lesson, but each tale is essential in the big picture.

Simeon is a challenge and trial for Jacob. God definitely tests Jacob’s faith and resolve through his son. The incident at Shechem damages Jacob’s reputation, and it also forces him to distrust the 10 brothers, with the two sons of Rachel firmly on his radar as his only good boys worthy of succession. And from this distrust will come Joseph’s tragedy sold to traders and his chance to redeem his 10 brothers. Dominoes....

Judah was a part of the Dinah revenge, but later Judah is against the idea of killing Joseph. And he is redeemed through Joseph to become the “Lion of Judah!” His tribe will become the remnant under Rehoboam.

The Dinah revenge story is foreshadowing of the 10 brothers’ later sins, the nucleus of why Jacob distrusts them, and a necessary step toward the Joseph story. Joseph is a foretaste of Christ in the OT.

So I would encourage you to look at this take that way.
 
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Ioannes

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Thank you for your insight.
I have in the meanwhile also studied part of the story of Joseph, until Jacob dies, and have seen already how righteous he is, and humble and loving too.
I will keep everyone's assessments in mind as I discuss this chapter in the future.
 
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jisaiah6113

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I love this discussion. I listen to Genesis 34 frequently as a lead up into the story of Joseph (Gen 37-50) and it always baffles me. It's such a story of seeming futility, and what strikes me about it most is that God doesn't say anything in response to the event after Shechem is seen burning to a crisp, with dead men murdered through treachery and women and children being taken captive by the sons of Jacob. God's response is simply to reinforce the blessing to Jacob that He had been promising to his father and grandfather for many years prior.
 
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Ioannes

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I love this discussion. I listen to Genesis 34 frequently as a lead up into the story of Joseph (Gen 37-50) and it always baffles me. It's such a story of seeming futility, and what strikes me about it most is that God doesn't say anything in response to the event after Shechem is seen burning to a crisp, with dead men murdered through treachery and women and children being taken captive by the sons of Jacob. God's response is simply to reinforce the blessing to Jacob that He had been promising to his father and grandfather for many years prior.

I was confused by God's apparent indifference too, but you can find his judgement very well defined by the end of Genesis. It should be the 49th or 50th chapter, because as Jacob departs he comments for each of his children, and his judgement (God's) on Simeon and Levi is harsh...
 
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mark kennedy

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The mere fact that it is in the bible mean that it is of value to us.
We have to find the meaning.
I found this site to be interesting, in it examines the story from a jewish view point:-
Who Is the Victim in the Dinah Story? - TheTorah.com

The story shows how women were not people but objects.
That greed, lust and revenge are powerfull motives that need restraint.
That leaders need to be responcibile even when faced by diastar.
That individuals are responcible for their actions
It cost them, the firstborn was supposed to be the ruler but that fell on Judea. If memory serves he was third in line. Diana was seduced, it's unfortunate but killing everyone in the town was excessive to say the least. He loved her and while what happened was inoppopriate they were excessive. It fleshed out later, a complicated conversation but it didn't have to end that way. They could have found a better way to defend her honor, even though I understand their sensibilities, they reacted viciously, there are consequences.
 
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