General v. Specific Submission--Submission in Marriage

[chaz345]

There does seem to be statistical support for the belief that a marriage based on a heirarchal view has a higher risk of divorce. The Orthodox church doesn't hold to a heirarchal view...and their divorce rate is far less than the overall divorce rate (14%)......their views on divorce aren't as restrictive either, but it doesn't seem to be of interest. IOW....it rarely comes up as there is little need.....marriages are "working" well (as is retention of whole families).

If I had to guess as to why marriages just work in the Orthodox church I'd have to say it's because of their much more traditional view as to what marriage is for. By and large, while they wouldn't say that being happy in one's marriage is bad or unimportant, I suspect that they don't view marriage as being about happiness or personal fulfillment either. Sure it's great if those things are there, but they aren't the main point, nor is anything horredeously wrong they are absent.

 

[Created2Write]

If I had to guess as to why marriages just work in the Orthodox church I'd have to say it's because of their much more traditional view as to what marriage is for. By and large, while they wouldn't say that being happy in one's marriage is bad or unimportant, I suspect that they don't view marriage as being about happiness or personal fulfillment either. Sure it's great if those things are there, but they aren't the main point, nor is anything horredeously wrong they are absent.

I know a few people within the Orthodox church and they believe marriage to be almost solely for procreation. That could be just the particular groups I know though.

 

[Conservativation]

There are way too many independent variables to say marriage or divorce is tied to hierarchy of its lack, in one church or the other.
To further confuse the issue is that, Im sure those wishing to make this statistical link would reflexively say, for example, that the SBC is a hierarchical denomination, and in some of the official statements that COULD be interpreted that way. However, just under the statements is the reality, and the reality doesnt back the statements whatsoever. There are few denominations as gynocentric as the SBC. In function its anything but hierarchical, in form maybe.

Like the author wrote, "men sit on boards, women run the church"...that's a perfect description of the SBC set up in things of the church

On marriage hierarchy there is the old joke Ive read several times, the guy says yes, my wife is submissive and I get to make all the big decisions in my family, like deciding things about the nature of the universe and whether conservatives are better than liberals....BIG things, she handles the smaller stuff like where we live, what house we buy, how we spend the money, how we discipline the kids, where and when we vacation...you know, monir things.

That describes the marriage hierarchy in the SBC.

So, Id be far more inclined to say that if it is a function of hierarchy, it is 180 degrees the opposite of what is being alleged.

 

[Created2Write]

I agree Cons. Just because a statistic says that a certain belief has a higher divorce rate doesn't mean the belief itself is wrong. If that were the case, then it would mean Christianity is fake, since our divorce rate is almost just as bad as the secular world.

And just because they say they believe in a hierarchy marriage, it doesn't mean they've been living it out the way God intended. In fact, if that statistic is, in any way, accurate, I'd bet that the divorce rate is a sure sign that they aren't living it out the way God intended.

 

[Conservativation]

You C2W made an example some time ago that was profound to me about some older couple that came forward at church and they said they wanted to try and re-order their marriage more along some lines they had been convicted recently to do. Each time the man tried to speak the wife kept interrupting him and speaking for him and the preacher said something about dont you think you might want to start by letting him speak?

Maybe Im off a little but it was something like that

 

[Created2Write]

You C2W made an example some time ago that was profound to me about some older couple that came forward at church and they said they wanted to try and re-order their marriage more along some lines they had been convicted recently to do. Each time the man tried to speak the wife kept interrupting him and speaking for him and the preacher said something about dont you think you might want to start by letting him speak?

Maybe Im off a little but it was something like that

Yes, that's what happened. The wife went up to the altar and said very emphatically, "Our marriage does not align with God's word. My husband won't lead our family, he won't be the head." The pastor looked at the man and asked, "Is this true?" The wife said, "Yes it is." The Pastor, still looking at the husband said, "Why don't you lead the family?" The guy opened his mouth to speak and, again, his wife started talking about all the things he does wrong. The Pastor then interrupted her and said, "If you want him to lead you have the give him the chance to speak. How can he lead you if you interrupt him?"

They talked with the Pastor a little, and then never came back. Our Pastor gave that story as an illustration of how we, as Christians, pray to God and say, "Make me more like you! I want to be closer to you! Show me where I need to change!", and then when He does we back away and say, "Nope. Not gonna change that. No way." This can come out in marriage and our everyday relationship with Christ, and others.

 

[dallasapple]

Sounds like to me the woman didnt really want her husband to lead..She wanted to SAY her marriage was set up that way.She obviously didnt want him to even talk about leading..so Im hard pressed to believe thats truly what she wanted.Maybe she should of started trying with EQUAL ?????..Just a thought..

Dallas

 

[mkgal1]

If I had to guess as to why marriages just work in the Orthodox church I'd have to say it's because of their much more traditional view as to what marriage is for. By and large, while they wouldn't say that being happy in one's marriage is bad or unimportant, I suspect that they don't view marriage as being about happiness or personal fulfillment either. Sure it's great if those things are there, but they aren't the main point, nor is anything horredeously wrong they are absent.

Greeks have a high priority for celebration and joy (that's the only Orthodox I'm familiar with). The large group of people I know that are Orthodox, *do* focus on *happiness*. The point is, you don't have to trade "joyful" for "long lasting".....when done with God's principles, you have both in marriage (and generations are blessed by it--and repeat what they caught from parents and grandparents).

Adam and Eve are primarily remembered in the context of the Fall. They are remembered for the suffering which they share together because of their sin: eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Adam is traditionally identified as the one ultimately responsible for the introduction of sin into humanity, but in the creation accounts of Genesis, both Adam and Eve are listed as having been created without any sense of subordination of one to the other. Thus, Adam's place is not as a lord over Eve, but rather as the representative of the family. As such, he is her equal, but the introduction of human sin is placed at his feet. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Marriage

 

[Created2Write]

Greeks have a high priority for celebration and joy (that's the only Orthodox I'm familiar with). The large group of people I know that are Orthodox, *do* focus on *happiness*. The point is, you don't have to trade "joyful" for "long lasting".....when done with God's principles, you have both (and generations are blessed by it--and repeat what they caught from parents and grandparents).

I definitely agree with the bold.

 

[LinkH]

I do not see "the church" as being applicable to protestant denominations. They are of every flavor. Now "the Church" in the way that is referenced could be applied to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches as their doctrine is very specific and also lengthy. But protestant denoms have everything from soup to nuts (and I mean this very respectfully) as doctrines. There are not only denominational doctrines, they sometimes vary within a denomination. Then there's all the nondenominational churches too.

That seems to be a strange to me, unless you were RCC or EO, and then it would be strange to refer to the other group. Paul refers to 'the church' for something broader than a local congregation. Is it the capital C you object to?

 

[mkgal1]

I know a few people within the Orthodox church and they believe marriage to be almost solely for procreation. That could be just the particular groups I know though.

This is what I got from their site:

Married life, no less than monastic life, is a special vocation, requiring a particular gift or charisma from the Holy Spirit, a gift bestowed in the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. The same Trinitarian mystery of unity in diversity applies to the doctrine of marriage as it does to the Church.

The mystery of marriage, in the Church, gives a man and a woman the possibility to become one spirit and one flesh in a way which no human love can provide by itself. The Holy Spirit is given so that what has begun on earth is fulfilled and continues most perfectly in the Kingdom of God.

If I were to sum that up, I would say their "purpose" for marriage is to glorify God by allowing the HS to guide the couple towards sanctification. Seems to line up to the Bible perfectly to me...."it is not good that man should be alone".

On Divorce:

Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. The Orthodox Church does permits divorce and remarriage, as an exception, a necessary concession to human sin. While condemning sin, the Church desires to help the sinners and to allow them another chance, with an act of oikonomia . When a marriage has ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church faces the reality with philanthropia (loving kindness).

 

[LinkH]

There does seem to be statistical support for the belief that a marriage based on a heirarchal view has a higher risk of divorce. The Orthodox church doesn't hold to a heirarchal view...and their divorce rate is far less than the overall divorce rate (14%)......their views on divorce aren't as restrictive either, but it doesn't seem to be of interest. IOW....it rarely comes up as there is little need.....marriages are "working" well (as is retention of whole families).

Do you have a source for the idea that the Eastern Orthodox churches do not teach a hierarchical view of marriage? They affirm the New Testament, including I Peter, Ephesians, and Colossians, don't they? Have you asked a variety of priests or scholars about the issue?

I just did a quick web search, found a Russian Orthodox forum where a priest was doing Q&A in a forum. He affirmed that wives were to submit to their husbands. It was the same kind of thing a protestant pastor might say.

Maybe Eastern Orthodox churches have a lower divorce rate partly because of wives submitting to their husbands.

Let's get real. The countries that have been overtaken by feminism where wives do not generally submit to their husbands and there is an emphasis on 'equality' in marriage have high divorce rates and/or a lot of people just shacking up. (I don't see a lot of emphasis on equality in the Bible.) When neither of these ideas were common in the US, we had low divorce rates. Can't anyone else see the connection?

I did a quick web search, and Sweden topped the list. Other northern European cultures were high on the list. Scandinavians are even more into equality than Americans are. A lot of those cultures are horizontal individualists. American culture is predominantly vertical individualist, which tolerates more 'inequality' between bosses and employees and in regard to wealth in society.

 

[Johnnz]

Trinitarian theology provides a very different basis for thinking about many issues. It is essentially relational in a way much western theology had lost, but has more recently been rediscovering.

At its core Trinitarian teaching, as formulated by the Council of Nicea, from which we get the Nicene Creed, sees the Trinity as an eternally existent, mutual 'community' of Being, equal and coexistent with one another.

"Trinitarian theology" is a particular approach to theology that sees the Trinity, as revealed in Jesus Christ, not merely as one point of doctrine, but rather as the central and foundational doctrine that forms the basis for how we read the Bible and how we understand all points of theology.

Trinitarian theology deals with not only the "how" and the "why" of doctrines and practices, but most importantly, it begins with the "who." Trinitarian theology asks, "Who is the God made known in Jesus Christ, and who are we in relation to him?"

The Bible confronts us with a God who has chosen to make himself known and to actually be with us and for us in person, in Jesus Christ. That means we cannot look outside of Jesus to understand who God is. In Jesus we meet God as God really is, as the God—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—who is for us.

When we meet Jesus, we find that he introduces us to his heavenly Father. In his words and actions we hear and see that the Father loves us unconditionally. He sent Jesus not out of anger and a need to punish someone, but out of his immeasurable love and his unbending commitment to human redemption. When we meet Jesus in the Bible we find that he also introduces us to his Spirit, the Holy Spirit of God, who is also at work to bring to our attention the reconciling ministry of God.

"Trinitarian theology," then, does not simply refer to a belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. It refers to believing in this Triune God and recognizing that this doctrine, which points to who the God of the Bible really is, lies at the heart of all other doctrines and forms the basis for how we understand everything we read in Scripture.

One of my major objections to the hierarchical teaching is its indifference to the Trinity. I Cor 11:3 is often quoted as a God-Jesus-Man-Woman 'order'. But that omits entirely any reference to the Holy Spirit!

The church fathers referred to the Trinity as the 'Great Dance' to give some concept of the delight, the joyousness, the total openness and mutuality of the Godhead. Through Jesus we are invited into their 'dance'. Thus marriage, an intimate relationship of two 'image bearers' is to be like that Divine one, of mutuality and interdependence that can be described as 'one flesh'. That goes way beyond the more romantic notions we have today.

John
NZ

 

[Conservativation]

Do you have a source for the idea that the Eastern Orthodox churches do not teach a hierarchical view of marriage? They affirm the New Testament, including I Peter, Ephesians, and Colossians, don't they? Have you asked a variety of priests or scholars about the issue?

I just did a quick web search, found a Russian Orthodox forum where a priest was doing Q&A in a forum. He affirmed that wives were to submit to their husbands. It was the same kind of thing a protestant pastor might say.

Maybe Eastern Orthodox churches have a lower divorce rate partly because of wives submitting to their husbands.

Let's get real. The countries that have been overtaken by feminism where wives do not generally submit to their husbands and there is an emphasis on 'equality' in marriage have high divorce rates and/or a lot of people just shacking up. (I don't see a lot of emphasis on equality in the Bible.) When neither of these ideas were common in the US, we had low divorce rates. Can't anyone else see the connection?

I did a quick web search, and Sweden topped the list. Other northern European cultures were high on the list. Scandinavians are even more into equality than Americans are. A lot of those cultures are horizontal individualists. American culture is predominantly vertical individualist, which tolerates more 'inequality' between bosses and employees and in regard to wealth in society.

You are on to the point for sure, Ive attempted many times here to explain this. The macro trends in marriage and divorce coincide perfectly with the macro trends in gender relations.

To deny that is absurd

But it gets worse, they would have us believ that the church is dangerously moving towards male headship, while every single indicator shows the church and the culture moving in the direction of feminism....if not outright feminism, at the very least in that general direction, and all of that graphs up with a coefficient of .9 or better that the two are if nothing else coincidentally linked.

The claims otherwise are almost surreal, its like you want to say HUH...are you looking at the same world as me?

One fact Ive offered (and you can predict the rebuttal I get, and you in particular may know a great deal about this), the INS tracks marriages with immigrants. Those between American men and women from a certain set of countries, some Asian, eastern Europe, some Latin (less so anymore) have a divorce rate of 19%. Now the rebuttal is always some smug denial based on saying the poor dears are hear as sex slaves or economic opportunists so they claim its not valid.

 

[McScribe]

In a way all these arguments are a bunch of crap, no offense. Because the crux of it is wanting to know not only what is required of men in marriage but also what is required of women. Mutual accountability in other words. Maybe everyone agrees it should be there but I'm not seeing it. It's like some see the words as a trap like something out of a fairy tale that once spoken they cannot escape from.

 

[Sailor_A]

Do you have a source for the idea that the Eastern Orthodox churches do not teach a hierarchical view of marriage? They affirm the New Testament, including I Peter, Ephesians, and Colossians, don't they? Have you asked a variety of priests or scholars about the issue?

I just did a quick web search, found a Russian Orthodox forum where a priest was doing Q&A in a forum. He affirmed that wives were to submit to their husbands. It was the same kind of thing a protestant pastor might say.

Maybe Eastern Orthodox churches have a lower divorce rate partly because of wives submitting to their husbands.

Let's get real. The countries that have been overtaken by feminism where wives do not generally submit to their husbands and there is an emphasis on 'equality' in marriage have high divorce rates and/or a lot of people just shacking up. (I don't see a lot of emphasis on equality in the Bible.) When neither of these ideas were common in the US, we had low divorce rates. Can't anyone else see the connection?

I did a quick web search, and Sweden topped the list. Other northern European cultures were high on the list. Scandinavians are even more into equality than Americans are. A lot of those cultures are horizontal individualists. American culture is predominantly vertical individualist, which tolerates more 'inequality' between bosses and employees and in regard to wealth in society.

LinkH I'm slightly confused, are saying that the "idea" of equality is the reason for divorced. There are many reasons; the most important one is that now people can divorce especially women and there is now less stigma towards the divorced.

And as for Swedes, love them . Thank God for those Scandinavians who believe in equality... well one in particular.

 

[hijklmnop]

The claims otherwise are almost surreal, its like you want to say HUH...are you looking at the same world as me?

Sometimes ppl can't stop seeing something because they're looking so hard for it and have become very sensitized to expect it.

 

[Conservativation]

Sometimes ppl can't stop seeing something because they're looking so hard for it and have become very sensitized to expect it.

for example?

Do you deny that generally culture drifts toward egalitarian values?

Do you claim that church is trending away from egalitarian values?

Where are you on those two things

 

[LinkH]

Mkgal1 posted from an Orthodox site

Married life, no less than monastic life, is a special vocation, requiring a particular gift or charisma from the Holy Spirit, a gift bestowed in the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. The same Trinitarian mystery of unity in diversity applies to the doctrine of marriage as it does to the Church.

Where is the part about not believing in hierarchy in marriage? This quote has to do with the mystery of unity in diversity, not hierarchy. Why don't you look up 'submission marriage Greek orthodox' or 'Russion Orthodox' to get a detailed view of this specific issue.

Do you have any other evidence that they don't believe in hierarchy in marriage.

Just another thought. Greek culture is more collectivist than a lot of other European cultures. Collectivists tend to think in terms of sacrificing their own desires for their in-group. I would imagine the low divorce rate is self-enforcing, as society doesn't look favorably on divorce and that influences people's thinking and options they will consider. Also, putting the family before the self may be another aspect.

I would imagine that Russian Orthodox may be a bit more serious about their faith than some other people in national type churches, since a few generations back it was really tough to be a Christian or go to church. That may influence their decisions about divorce.

 

[LinkH]

JohnNZ,

Let's not forget that the relationship of God and Christ is that of Father and Son and the relationship between Christ and the church is that of Husband and bride. The common element here we have focused on is the use of the word 'Head.' But we can't expect that all aspects of a Father-Son relationship will be seen in a Husband-bride relationship.

Another thing to be careful about is that it would be unwise to base theology based on perhaps somewhat strained arguments off of the Nicean council, when we have actual direct teaching of scripture on the topic. Which is the 'more sure word of prophecy'? A lot of believers care what scripture says, and are not too enthusiastic about ecumenical councils, if you are trying to relate to people from different religious backgrounds.

I don't have time to look it up and put a lot of work into it now, but I know I've seen theological discussions of types of hierarchy that are not seen in the Trinity. On the one hand, Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God. In the sense referred to here, there is equality.

But we also see Christ submitting to the Father's will. God will have Christ reign UNTIL He puts all things, except Himself, under Christ's feet, but Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God that God may be all in all. We also see Christ saying, "My Father is greater than I." So we do see a Headship and submission relationship between Christ and the Father. So when we talk about hierarchy in the Trinity, let's not talk apples and oranges.