Gender of biblical language words used for divinity

[the old scribe]

Does any one actually believe YHWH is one gender or the other?
Elohim used in Genesis is a plural (strike out feminine - old scribe's error) masculine noun.
The Hebrew, Greek, or English word for father uses the word figuratively.
In the biological sense of the meaning of YHWH is not "our Father."
I have heard some feminist ministers replace father with mother and he with she.
This is a distortion of the revelation just as is the gender sensitive NIV version. The use of father when referring to YHWH is analogous to a male parent and not a female parent. It does not attribute gender to YHWH any more than the gender of any noun attributes a biological gender to the Holy Spirit.

Spirit in Hebrew("rūaḥ") is a feminine noun which requires a feminine verb. In English "spirit" as a noun is neuter. Grammatically, spirit in English requires the pronoun it. Spirit in New Testament Greek ("pneuma"), is a neuter noun. In Latin, the word for spirit is masculine. Scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender. Another example is the Greek word for "sword" is feminine.

An excellent short rendition of the controversy may be found on wikipedia from which a section follows. I doubt anyone on this forum is qualified to argue with either of these scholars, Mounce or Wallace..
Gender of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia

William Mounce argues that in John's gospel, when Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as Comforter (masculine in Greek), the grammatically necessary masculine form of the Greek pronoun autos is used, but when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as Spirit, grammatically neuter in Greek, the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos ("that masculine one") is used. This breaking of the grammatical agreement expected by native language readers is an indication of the author's intention to convey the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and also the Spirit's masculinity. Daniel Wallace, however, disputes the claim that ekeinos is connected with pneuma in John 14:26 and 16:13-14, asserting instead that it belongs to parakletos. Wallace concludes that "it is difficult to find any text in which πνευμα is grammatically referred to with the masculine gender".

As brothers and sisters who follow the male Lord Jesus - to be sensitive to the gender issue is spiritual immaturity and worldly - putting earthly things above those of the kingdom. Would it have made any difference if the Messiah had been the daughter of God? Such concerns are not anything different than what homosexuals do with interpretations to biblically and theologically justify their perversion. Follow the Lord Jesus and not the worldly self. There is no gender when we become everlasting.

Any who want to fight the gender war should fight in the worldly realm of politics and social norms and not among the people of faith - ". . . for what do we have to do with the world," the Apostle Paul wrote.

 

[the old scribe]

Language studies are not just the syntax and lexical application.

The philosophical background of a language is important if the nuances are to be grasped and translations are equivalent in meaning.

This means to correctly understand a language one must be well versed in the philosophy of the speakers. Everybody has a philosophy.

Since gender is the issue here, let it be the example of how we use gender in English.
Considering English only:

Both boat and car (automobile) are neuter – requiring the neuter pronoun “it”.
It is my car.
It is my boat.

However, if an attribute is attached to the car or boat it changes the gender of the pronoun – usually to female.
I love my car. She is sweet.
I named my boat Lulu because she is such a beauty.

Names given to cars are nearly always feminine as with many boats.
Boat and car take on the female pronoun because the attributes attributed to these neuter nouns are associated philosophically with words associated with the female. Beauty and sweet are words normally associated with the female – thus, a female pronoun.

Another well known case is that of naming hurricanes.

From the outset, hurricanes were given female names and identified with feminine pronouns because of their fury. True or not, philosophically women are associated with fury. Feminist found this offensive, so the politically correct response was to alternate the names of hurricanes with male names. Such actions corrupt the philosophical backing for the use of language. I wish the powers that be had chosen super hero names for hurricanes.

Leaving gender, the capture of words by American black language to mean something completely different is a creative marvel which has proven to have enormous power. There a many, many examples, but to make the point, think how the meaning of the word “bad” now depends entirely on the context. If one is using an old dictionary to translate “bad” into another language it could be just the opposite of the foreign language word chosen. The same process has occurred with the word “gay” to such an extent that it is no longer used except to describe the homosexual community. When I was young, gay was the sweetest word to describe a pleasant emotion.

My point: All the technical presentation of the gender of a word may be worthless outside the philosophical understanding of the language. Such is the case with the Hebrew word for “spirit.” Theology based upon the lexical meaning for the Hebrew word for spirit is a literalism resulting in error.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Does any one actually believe YHWH is one gender or the other?
Elohim used in Genesis is a plural feminine noun.
The Hebrew, Greek, or English word for father uses the word figuratively.
In the biological sense of the meaning of YHWH is not "our Father."
I have heard some feminist ministers replace father with mother and he with she.
This is a distortion of the revelation just as is the gender sensitive NIV version. The use of father when referring to YHWH is analogous to a male parent and not a female parent. It does not attribute gender to YHWH any more than the gender of any noun attributes a biological gender to the Holy Spirit.

Spirit in Hebrew("rūaḥ") is a feminine noun which requires a feminine verb. In English "spirit" as a noun is neuter. Grammatically, spirit in English requires the pronoun it. Spirit in New Testament Greek ("pneuma"), is a neuter noun. In Latin, the word for spirit is masculine. Scholars generally agree that grammatical gender is not necessarily correlative to personal gender. Another example is the Greek word for "sword" is feminine.

An excellent short rendition of the controversy may be found on wikipedia from which a section follows. I doubt anyone on this forum is qualified to argue with either of these scholars, Mounce or Wallace..
Gender of the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia

William Mounce argues that in John's gospel, when Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as Comforter (masculine in Greek), the grammatically necessary masculine form of the Greek pronoun autos is used, but when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as Spirit, grammatically neuter in Greek, the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos ("that masculine one") is used. This breaking of the grammatical agreement expected by native language readers is an indication of the author's intention to convey the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and also the Spirit's masculinity. Daniel Wallace, however, disputes the claim that ekeinos is connected with pneuma in John 14:26 and 16:13-14, asserting instead that it belongs to parakletos. Wallace concludes that "it is difficult to find any text in which πνευμα is grammatically referred to with the masculine gender".

As brothers and sisters who follow the male Lord Jesus - to be sensitive to the gender issue is spiritual immaturity and worldly - putting earthly things above those of the kingdom. Would it have made any difference if the Messiah had been the daughter of God? Such concerns are not anything different than what homosexuals do with interpretations to biblically and theologically justify their perversion. Follow the Lord Jesus and not the worldly self. There is no gender when we become everlasting.

Any who want to fight the gender war should fight in the worldly realm of politics and social norms and not among the people of faith - ". . . for what do we have to do with the world," the Apostle Paul wrote.

God refers to Himself with such terms. Do you disagree with HIM?

 

[the old scribe]

old scribe had a plan.

Because Mr. Caruso introduced the gender of spirit in Hebrew and Aramaic the question was asked about his knowledge of Koine Greek since the gender of spirit in Koine Greek is neuter rather then feminine.

old scribe followed this with the question: Is the Old Testament to be interpreted in the light of the New Testament
or is the New Testament to be interpreted in light of the Old Testament?
When there is a difference which one trumps the other?

If the New Covenant theology trumps the Old Covenant theology when there is a difference, then the revelation of spirit as neuter in the Koine Greek supersedes the feminine gender of spirit of the Old Testament Hebrew.

old scribe recognizes this is an oversimplification of this gender issue but it makes the point of the relativity of gender for spirit rather than emphasizing the feminine gender as Mr. Caruso has done. In both the Old and New Testaments the gender of nouns referring to deity serve a different theological purpose than biological gender. It is a philosophical issue which seems to me worthy of exploring.

Mr. Caruso replied by side stepping the question. His reply was too wise to be caught in old scribe’s plan. He wrote: “This is far too complicated a question for a simplistic answer.”

Mr. Caruso is correct about it not being a simple answer, but having posted on the issue the readers deserved an explanation. With his background and expertise, Mr. Caruso might have been able to provide the significance from the languages concerning the gender of nouns referring to deity.

Spirit in Old Testament Hebrew("rūaḥ") is a feminine noun.
Spirit in New Testament Koine Greek ("pneuma") is a neuter noun.

old scribe is now replying to Mr. Caruso side stepping of this question: “When there is a difference which one trumps the other?”

Well done if Mr. Caruso and the old scribe are in a debate, but if the attempts are to nurture Christians - well those opinions have been previously posted without effect and need not repeating.

old scribe prays this simple summary reduces any turmoil over this gender issue by the readers.

 

[the old scribe]

God refers to Himself with such terms. Do you disagree with HIM?

Let us wait to see if we pull in some experts on the language who might enlighten us on this issue.

But for a start. Father is a masculine gender noun in Hebrew, Greek, and English.
What does this mean and what does it reveal about the Heavenly Father?

 

[Tree of Life]

Elohim used in Genesis is a plural feminine noun.

This is not correct. Elohim is masculine plural.

 

[-V-]

First, I think we need to recognize that a *word* having a gender does not mean what it represents actually has a gender. As in Spanish, for example, "biblioteca" is feminine, taking the article "la". But despite being a feminine *word* (meaning "library"), libraries are not female, the buildings themselves do not have an actual gender.

The same applies to God. Just because the *word* for "God" has a gender does not mean God Himself is male or female. As a spirit, God has no real gender. Sure, He refers to Himself in masculine terms in the Bible, but He never says "I'm male." Terms like "Father" are anthropomorphisms to explain the dynamics of the relationships God has among persons in the Trinity and with us, but they aren't literal, God isn't male. Sure, Jesus did have a gender in His incarnation (obviously male), and still has His body today. But in His true original nature before the incarnation, He was also spirit just as the Father and Holy Spirit, and was neither "male" nor "female". The purpose of "male" and "female" is sexual reproduction, something God doesn't do.

 

[the old scribe]

This is not correct. Elohim is masculine plural.

Thank you - Just a lapse in thinking over another gender issue.

The "-im" ending denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew.

 

[Tree of Life]

Thank you - Just a lapse in thinking over another gender issue.

The "-im" ending denotes plural masculine nouns in Hebrew.

Not always. The plural of "father" is avot.

 

[SteveCaruso]

old scribe had a plan.

I am baffled by the shift to 3rd person.

Because Mr. Caruso introduced the gender of spirit in Hebrew and Aramaic the question was asked about his knowledge of Koine Greek since the gender of spirit in Koine Greek is neuter rather then feminine.

old scribe followed this with the question: Is the Old Testament to be interpreted in the light of the New Testament
or is the New Testament to be interpreted in light of the Old Testament?
When there is a difference which one trumps the other?

If the New Covenant theology trumps the Old Covenant theology when there is a difference, then the revelation of spirit as neuter in the Koine Greek supersedes the feminine gender of spirit of the Old Testament Hebrew.

Among Greek speaking Christians this was not an issue. Not even on their radar. Nor does this have anything to do with "New vs Old Covenant." But among Aramaic speaking folk this was something that was written about on occasion. As I posted in the other thread: We have examples from Christian theology in the 2nd through 4th centuries discussing the maternal aspects of the Holy Spirit, especially among the Syriac-speaking Christians (like Aphrahat of Persia and Ephrem the Syrian) whose language was related to the Aramaic that Jesus and his Disciples spoke. In Jewish theology there is discussion about this too – also personifying Wisdom in a similar manner (as Christ did, giving "her" "children") – and a revisitation of such thinking in the 15th and 16th centuries. So this idea of the Holy Spirit as feminine compared to the explicitly masculine Father and Son is not a foreign concept, nor is it based strictly upon lexical considerations out of context.

God obviously does not have a biological sex. As -V- discussed above, that has to do with reproduction. The Persons of the Trinity, however, have at times expressed gender roles or have had gender roles attributed to them. That's pretty much it.

 

[SteveCaruso]

Not always. The plural of "father" is avot.

The ending is feminine morphologically, but avot is still a masculine noun and takes masculine pronouns and verbs. It's irregular.

 

[Tree of Life]

The ending is feminine morphologically, but avot is still a masculine noun and takes masculine pronouns and verbs. It's irregular.

I agree. I was just providing an example of when a masculine plural does not end in "im".

 

[DamianWarS]

English is not really a language that has inherent gender built in words so I think pulling examples in english is going to fall short.

From what I understand all nouns in Hebrew are either feminine or masculine but not neuter and the pronoun must agree with the noun. In Greek it also adds the neuter gender and again all pronouns must agree with the noun. Just because greek has the neuter gender doesn't mean "things" are all neuter and actually most "things" are feminine or masculine.

For example: Mat 5:30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." "it" refers to the "hand" Hand in greek is "cheir" and it is feminine and the pronoun used agrees with the gender in greek. This could be translated as "...cut her off and throw her away" This would be an inappropriate, albeit humorous, translation. In english a "hand" is neuter and only in informal language do we give it a gender quality but it's not grammatically correct and inappropriate.

When a word goes through translation a washing of gender occurs when it's nonspecific and then it takes on a gender that is appropriate to the language to be more readable. Such as "hand" turns from "her" to "it". In the case of "Spirit" it's a neuter noun but males and females have a spirit but "things" do not so the gender quality of the noun is not describing it as a boy or a girl or "non" it is just the gender that the word takes on.

"it" can make sense for spirit in english as I think "spirit" would usually be neuter such as "his spirit rejoiced, it filled up full of gladness" (only example non-biblical) This makes sense as well in translation putting "spirit" as a neuter but the Holy Spirit is unique in that it is it's own person so should be qualified with a gender pronoun. The fact that pneuma is neuter and parakletos is masculine I think misses the point because in greek "it" is always for pneuma and "he" is always for parakletos. If we look at the HS as a person then "he" should be appropriate but a measure interpretation is required.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

English had grammatical gender in the past. Old English used it extensively, but it disappeared at some point during Middle English times.
The holdouts were countries, ships and vehicles that remained feminine, which grammatically they ought to be, but are in the process of becoming neuter. This is why Britain was Brittania, the US Columbia etc. in female personification. @the old scribe it is not a philosophic issue of 'feminine ideas', but a holdover of old English grammar.
Likewise tropical storms were originally named with Greek letter codes, but this proved too cumbersome. Based on gendered grammar of the Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female names. There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives, no matter how attractive the idea of 'Fury', as in the female Erinyes, being related may appear.

English still has grammatical gender however. Certain nouns are innately gendered like waitress, vixen, bull, gentleman, lady etc. Father and mother fall within this class. As long as we describe God as our Heavenly Father in English, innately we ascribe a gender to Him (another gendered word again).
As Wittgenstein explained, simplistically stated, meaning is use. We may mean God to be without gender, but in practice we render Him masculine and this obviously impacts our thinking on Him.
This grammar is also present in the original languages as mentioned above, with some ambiguity regarding the Holy Spirit, but clearly God used this analogy to explain His position vis-a-vis Us. He could have denied such associations in a OT law, but became Our Father by His command. Clearly there is some worth to us seeing God in this manner, subconsciously ascribing gender where there ought to be none, or why would Jesus use this phraseology? He may want us to ascribe our human relationship to our parent to Him, but why the masculine is another question.

 

[Eryk]

This is not correct. Elohim is masculine plural.

Hebrew is the only language of the ancient Near East that intensified nouns by making them plural. So we're not necessarily speaking here of a quantitative plural.

 

[the old scribe]

Hebrew is the only language of the ancient Near East that intensified nouns by making them plural. So we're not necessarily speaking here of a quantitative plural.

Eryk, would you mind explaining the difference between the quantitative plural and the qualitative plural - the meaning and use of intensified nouns - why the qualitative plural is used and why a name for the deity like Elohim does not indicate a plural number nor is a reference to the trinity?

In the near east, Hebrew is the only language to intensify nouns - really?
Please provide what you know about languages using the intensified noun.

 

[the old scribe]

I am baffled by the shift to 3rd person.

My English grammar fails me often.
Inherited from family, my language is of the uneducated and isolated country folks.
Additionally, hearing issues prevent distinguishing accented syllables, long and short vowels, "wr," "wh," etc., and discernment of several syllable words - plus the old srcibe is very slow to memorize. My speech and writing along with my ordinary intellect makes excelling impossible.
When in need of a laugh my grown children and young grand children have several words they ask me to say, as they giggle, because they know I cannot ever speak the word correctly without multiply prompts. The favorite word they ask me to say is gargoyle.
Six years of speech therapy as a child and a life time of of remedial effort with the help of a kind wife has squeaked me past the unobservant.
Grammatically, writing in the third person removes some of the challenges of not coming across as the slow witted hick. Baffled solved!

 

[the old scribe]

English had grammatical gender in the past. Old English used it extensively, but it disappeared at some point during Middle English times.
The holdouts were countries, ships and vehicles that remained feminine, which grammatically they ought to be, but are in the process of becoming neuter. This is why Britain was Brittania, the US Columbia etc. in female personification. @the old scribe it is not a philosophic issue of 'feminine ideas', but a holdover of old English grammar.
Likewise tropical storms were originally named with Greek letter codes, but this proved too cumbersome. Based on gendered grammar of the Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female names. There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives, no matter how attractive the idea of 'Fury', as in the female Erinyes, being related may appear.

English still has grammatical gender however. Certain nouns are innately gendered like waitress, vixen, bull, gentleman, lady etc. Father and mother fall within this class. As long as we describe God as our Heavenly Father in English, innately we ascribe a gender to Him (another gendered word again).
As Wittgenstein explained, simplistically stated, meaning is use. We may mean God to be without gender, but in practice we render Him masculine and this obviously impacts our thinking on Him.
This grammar is also present in the original languages as mentioned above, with some ambiguity regarding the Holy Spirit, but clearly God used this analogy to explain His position vis-a-vis Us. He could have denied such associations in a OT law, but became Our Father by His command. Clearly there is some worth to us seeing God in this manner, subconsciously ascribing gender where there ought to be none, or why would Jesus use this phraseology? He may want us to ascribe our human relationship to our parent to Him, but why the masculine is another question.

Yep. Your excellent post restored my fading memory.

Specifically about this, you wrote, "Based on gendered grammar of the Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female names. There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives, no matter how attractive the idea of 'Fury', as in the female Erinyes, being related may appear."

My question: Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female name - why is the sea feminine? I have always assumed the rationale of gender nouns would be the stereotype the culture had about that noun, thereby, associating gender characteristics to the noun.
But you state "There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives." Why then does a language assume gender for some nouns?
The next to last paragraph of Post # 2 is my feeble attempt to demonstrate this process.

The reason this thread was started is to attract some expert input rather relying upon my poor attempts to explain.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Yep. Your excellent post restored my fading memory.

Specifically about this, you wrote, "Based on gendered grammar of the Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female names. There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives, no matter how attractive the idea of 'Fury', as in the female Erinyes, being related may appear."

My question: Sea being female in maritime speak, this became female name - why is the sea feminine? I have always assumed the rationale of gender nouns would be the stereotype the culture had about that noun, thereby, associating gender characteristics to the noun.
But you state "There is no association as such in its origin with 'feminine' adjectives." Why then does a language assume gender for some nouns?
The next to last paragraph of Post # 2 is my feeble attempt to demonstrate this process.

The reason this thread was started is to attract some expert input rather relying upon my poor attempts to explain.

This makes me think of a passage in the Old man and the Sea by Hemingway:

"He always thought of the sea as ‘la mar’ which is what people call her in Spanish when they love her. Sometimes those who love her say bad things of her but they are always said as though she were a woman. Some of the younger fishermen, those who used buoys as floats for their lines and had motorboats, bought when the shark livers had brought much money, spoke of her as ‘el mar’ which is masculine.They spoke of her as a contestant or a place or even an enemy. But the old man always thought of her as feminine and as something that gave or withheld great favours, and if she did wild or wicked things it was because she could not help them. The moon affects her as it does a woman, he thought."

In most Romance languages the sea is feminine, while it is neuter in English proper. In maritime speak it becomes feminine gendered again. Hemingway alludes to ascribing feminine characteristics to the Sea, but most likely it is due to the Tides I think. The moon and menstruation have always had an association in primitive peoples' minds, as the lunar cycle is about the same length as the menses and both are dramatic cyclical changes. It is the same reason why the moon is usually presented as a goddess in polytheism. The clear lunar association with tides therefore suggests a femininity to the waters as well. Many mythologies have primordial water goddesses as well.
There is no reason to think a woman specifically is more furious than a man or more mutable. We do seem to have this association often, but this might as well be a derivation from a furious feminine sea applied to human females than the reverse.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Eryk, would you mind explaining the difference between the quantitative plural and the qualitative plural - the meaning and use of intensified nouns - why the qualitative plural is used and why a name for the deity like Elohim does not indicate a plural number nor is a reference to the trinity?

In the near east, Hebrew is the only language to intensify nouns - really?
Please provide what you know about languages using the intensified noun.

Pardon the interjection.

There is a phenomenon called the Majestic Plural. We see this in monarchies, such as when Victoria said: "We are not amused". Popes also employ it when writing. It is the use of plural grammatic form to indicate majesty and is considered more deferential, even though it refers to the singular. In some languages it is also used when refering to a superior in the third person as well.

This is also present in Hebrew when speaking of God as Elohim and Arabic, as can be seen in the Quran where Allah repeatedly says "we created" or somesuch. It is usually dropped in English translation to singular usage as it is somewhat archaic to most people and erroneously is thought to conflict with ideas like the absolute monotheism of Islam or the OT "behold oh Israel, the Lord is One".