Gay Seattle Coffee Shop Owner Denies Christian Group Service

Liza B.

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He won't sell any product to, what, two or three specific people. Some Christian bakers won't sell wedding cakes to any homosexuals. Big difference.

Gays are a broad group of people. Your narrowing qualifiers are inappropriate. Would they sell wedding cakes to gay couples that don't request wedding cakes from them? Of course not. So, "they refuse to sell wedding cakes to gays". A lot more than two or three specific individuals.

He won't sell any product to them whatsoever because he didn't like what they were doing not even on his property. Again, that's fine parsing.

FWIW I think we're at the point now where business owners should be able to sell to whom they want for whatever reason. If they want to broadly discriminate, their business will suffer. There was a time in this nation when pervasive and massive injustices needed to be addressed with legislation. Hopefully that time is past. Anti-discrimination laws are only causing more injustices than they fix, by in a sense enslaving free Americans to the demands of customers.
 
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Moral Orel

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He won't sell any product to them whatsoever because he didn't like what they were doing not even on his property. Again, that's fine parsing.
And "them" of course being two or three specific individuals.

FWIW I think we're at the point now where business owners should be able to sell to whom they want for whatever reason. If they want to broadly discriminate, their business will suffer. There was a time in this nation when pervasive and massive injustices needed to be addressed with legislation. Hopefully that time is past. Anti-discrimination laws are only causing more injustices than they fix, by in a sense enslaving free Americans to the demands of customers.
I can't personally relate to the dilemma either. Mostly because I'm a straight white male between the ages of 18 and 45 that doesn't have to really worry about being discriminated against (it's pretty great by the way). But I understand that not all parts of the country are just like mine, and in some places, people will be forced to travel unreasonably long distances for products and services if discrimination were legal.

If people don't want to be restricted by discrimination laws, they're free to open a different kind of business, offer a different kind of product or service, or not open their business to the public and instead have a private club. Places like Sam's Club are free to refuse membership to blacks or gays or latinos or Christians or Muslims or whatever they want. It isn't slavery if you can quit whenever you want.
 
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Jimmy D

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Anti-discrimination laws are only causing more injustices than they fix, by in a sense enslaving free Americans to the demands of customers.

Really, what injustices would they be? Those poor bakers not being allowed to express their bigotry?

You think that outweighs the positive effects of these laws, denying people housing or services on the basis of race for example?
 
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grasping the after wind

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He kicked a group of people out of his shop because they specifically had been working the neighborhood handing out pamphlets covered in rainbows and an aborted fetus. It had nothing to do with their membership in a group whatsoever, but to the specific actions those specific people performed in his area.

I think it was wrong for him to throw them out, because it appears they were minding their own business inside his shop, but he did not throw them out for being Christian, or refuse to sell them a specific product that he sells because they were Christians.

It had everything to do with being part of a group. to say otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. He refused to sell to them because they belonged to a group he did not like a Not perhaps because they were Christians but because they were part of a group lawfully protesting something he did not want protested or a group he did not like because of the methods they used to protest. He refused service altogether based upon the patron's inclusion in that group and nothing more. Unlike the "cake" case where the owners refused to bake a particular cake on grounds of religious objection but did not refuse any other service, this man simply refused to serve at all solely based upon the individual's membership in the group to which the customers belonged. In one case you have an owner opposed to rendering a particular service while in this case you have an owner opposed to serving memebers of a group. It really is irrelevant whether the members of the group are Christians as the discrimination seems based upon membership in a protest group not upon membership in a reliigious group. . It is immaterial as to whether the owner is discriminating against customers based upon their religious affiliation or becasue of their membership in a group protesting an issue because either way the discrimination here is against individuals based upon those individual's membership in a particular group. The excuse people are giving here seems to be that the group involved is a bad one due of the materials they use in their protest so discriminating against a particular group is ok with them as long as it is a group whose practices they personally dislike.
 
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Zoii

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Seriously...this is what they were passing out?..... To the OP - why would you put this thread up in some sort of outrage given the posters they were passing out???? The offenders were clearly trying to incite against the owners. What a moronic and offensive thing to do
 
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iluvatar5150

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One of his employees recognized them from on the street handing out pamphlets and went and got the owner from upstairs in the shop. That is from the article posted in another thread.


The owner's words....(does he think they are saying gays perform abortions or gays are to blame for abortions???)

The God I knew, the Jesus I was taught about would absolutely never ever print a poster with a hideous dead baby representation at ‘what was clearly meant to insinuate’ at the hands of gays …

Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

The imagery certainly gives impression that they're blaming gays for abortion. I had to read the text a few times to make sure that wasn't what they were saying. I'm still not positive, but I think they were just co-opting gay imagery.

It had everything to do with being part of a group. to say otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. He refused to sell to them because they belonged to a group he did not like a Not perhaps because they were Christians but because they were part of a group lawfully protesting something he did not want protested or a group he did not like because of the methods they used to protest. He refused service altogether based upon the patron's inclusion in that group and nothing more. Unlike the "cake" case where the owners refused to bake a particular cake on grounds of religious objection but did not refuse any other service, this man simply refused to serve at all solely based upon the individual's membership in the group to which the customers belonged. In one case you have an owner opposed to rendering a particular service while in this case you have an owner opposed to serving memebers of a group. It really is irrelevant whether the members of the group are Christians as the discrimination seems based upon membership in a protest group not upon membership in a reliigious group. . It is immaterial as to whether the owner is discriminating against customers based upon their religious affiliation or becasue of their membership in a group protesting an issue because either way the discrimination here is against individuals based upon those individual's membership in a particular group. The excuse people are giving here seems to be that the group involved is a bad one due of the materials they use in their protest so discriminating against a particular group is ok with them as long as it is a group whose practices they personally dislike.

Those things are absolutely not irrelevant or immaterial. The law prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion and in some states, also on the basis of sexual orientation. "Preferred manner of protest" does not enjoy those kind of legal protections anywhere.
 
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Rion

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Oh, the All Gods must die crazies. They get some local press for interesting media campaigns, up until the point they reveal who they are and what they stand for. Then they get dropped like a hot potato in the local news.

I don't blame the owner for not wanting to serve them for leaving those flyers in his shop, and then denying it is theirs. Poor behavior in any restaurant or cafe would get you booted out.

Well, the rules of the forum stipulate we can't really say anything bad about other Christians/groups, so I was trying to avoid doing so since I have such a dedicated "fanbase". :ahem:

I just had a look at the attachments (the brochure) and I find it highly offensive and I'm not gay.

It conflates LGBTQ people, as portrayed by the rainbow flag/background (and named), with abortion and every other Christian moral issue the author can think of, Apart from being untruthful and insulting the hatred jumps off the pages. I don't blame the owner for getting upset.

If this group are Christians, I have another excellent reason for non belief.
OB

Ignoring the edgelord stuff at the end, I don't disagree with the owner being upset. However, the issue becomes a "rules for thee, not for me" situation if all situations are treated equally.

One of his employees recognized them from on the street handing out pamphlets and went and got the owner from upstairs in the shop. That is from the article posted in another thread.


The owner's words....(does he think they are saying gays perform abortions or gays are to blame for abortions???)

The God I knew, the Jesus I was taught about would absolutely never ever print a poster with a hideous dead baby representation at ‘what was clearly meant to insinuate’ at the hands of gays …

Christian activists booted from Seattle coffee shop: ‘I’m gay. You have to leave’

Yeah, that link also violates TOS. Trust me, I looked for a site for a while that matched the zealous standards of this site.
 
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brinny

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I saw the video. The clincher is when he screamed at the patrons what he would do to Jesus Christ's body parts.

He cursed himself and his business.

His reviews are abominable, and it seems he has stopped answering his business phone.
 
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essentialsaltes

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He certainly didn't handle himself professionally, but I agree with those who suggest that these customers were not singled out for their religion, but for particular political beliefs for which they are notorious in the area. Political beliefs are not a protected class.
 
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Danthemailman

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I saw the video. The clincher is when he screamed at the patrons what he would do to Jesus Christ's body parts.

He cursed himself and his business.

His reviews are abominable, and it seems he has stopped answering his business phone.
I saw the video as well. Very graphic, disturbing language from the coffee shop owner! :eek:
 
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Moral Orel

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It had everything to do with being part of a group. to say otherwise is simply ignoring the facts. He refused to sell to them because they belonged to a group he did not like a Not perhaps because they were Christians but because they were part of a group lawfully protesting something he did not want protested or a group he did not like because of the methods they used to protest. He refused service altogether based upon the patron's inclusion in that group and nothing more. Unlike the "cake" case where the owners refused to bake a particular cake on grounds of religious objection but did not refuse any other service, this man simply refused to serve at all solely based upon the individual's membership in the group to which the customers belonged. In one case you have an owner opposed to rendering a particular service while in this case you have an owner opposed to serving memebers of a group. It really is irrelevant whether the members of the group are Christians as the discrimination seems based upon membership in a protest group not upon membership in a reliigious group. . It is immaterial as to whether the owner is discriminating against customers based upon their religious affiliation or becasue of their membership in a group protesting an issue because either way the discrimination here is against individuals based upon those individual's membership in a particular group. The excuse people are giving here seems to be that the group involved is a bad one due of the materials they use in their protest so discriminating against a particular group is ok with them as long as it is a group whose practices they personally dislike.
You're imagining the owner being upset about them belonging to a larger group. He was upset about their flier. So the group that he was "discriminating" against was people handing out that particular flier, with those particular words, with that particular imagery.
 
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grasping the after wind

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The imagery certainly gives impression that they're blaming gays for abortion. I had to read the text a few times to make sure that wasn't what they were saying. I'm still not positive, but I think they were just co-opting gay imagery.



Those things are absolutely not irrelevant or immaterial. The law prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion and in some states, also on the basis of sexual orientation. "Preferred manner of protest" does not enjoy those kind of legal protections anywhere.

As I said, some people think is is fine to discriminate, in any way that they see fit , against a member of a group they don't like but ought to be illegal to even refuse to comply with a demand for specific services by a member of a group they do like. Seems to me that this violates the spirit of equal protection under the law. If a member of one group cannot be ever discriminated against for any reason then all members of all groups ought not be discriminated against for any reason. If a person can claim that they are being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation despite the fact that those that have said they will not perform the service have cited reasons of religious conscious only on one particular service and no other service was denied them , then why cannot another person claim to have been discriminated against due to their political beliefs when those doing the discriminating have admitted that services have been denied them solely on the basis that they have expressed those political beliefs in public.
Let us assume on the legal issue that you are correct and that the government is in the business of playing favorites and equal protection under the law is more of an Orwellian thing whereby some groups are more equal than others. Does being legal make something morally justifiable ? I see nothing in my post that makes me think I require the legal system's seal of approval to make a moral argument. The crux of that argument being that no one ought to have the power to use the coercive force of government to force another person to perform any services for them and certainly one ought not to be able to do that while denying others the same ability based solely on whether one's group is one that is preferred by the wielder of the powers of the government. This means the coffee shop owner ought to be able to say to those he objected to "get out of my place I don't like you're protest and what you stand for " but should that not also means that the cake baker can say "I don't want to serve you because I believe what you do is morally wrong.". However, there are many that say the former is fine but will not only not allow the latter but will not even allow a person to say" I don't want to do this one particular thing you want me to do because it would be contrary to what I believe but I will be happy to sell you anything else here. "
 
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grasping the after wind

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You're imagining the owner being upset about them belonging to a larger group. He was upset about their flier. So the group that he was "discriminating" against was people handing out that particular flier, with those particular words, with that particular imagery.

That isn't my imagination it is exactly the situation. You put it precisely right he was upset at that particular group handing out those particular fliers and wanted to figuratively strike back at the individual members of the group when the opportunity arose. This is a case of discrimination based on group identity. The owner objects to what the group is doing and proposes that he has a right to deny service to individuals seeking his services based solely upon the fact of those individual's membership in that group. Some agree that shared behavior is a valid reason one might decide to discriminate against members of a group when membership in the particular group entails,without exception, engaging in a particular behavior that the one discriminating finds abhorrent, in this case handing out fliers the owner finds offensive. Others do not agree and say all discrimination based upon group identity is invalid. Both sides of that argument have points that ought to be considered and both sides taken to extreme have the potential for harm. What I object to is the attitude that says my side of any issue ought to have the right to discriminate against members of groups we dislike but the other side ought not to be able to do so because we, of course, are right and they are wrong, we are innocent of all selfish interests and have only good intentions and they are malevolent villains with only evil intent.
 
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brinny

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That was pure evil from his heart behind his words. Especially what he said about Jesus Christ!

Exactly. What came spewing out was/had already been, festering in his heart. He sealed the deal with what he said about what he'd do to Jesus Christ. He might as well have spit in God's face.
 
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Moral Orel

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That isn't my imagination it is exactly the situation. You put it precisely right he was upset at that particular group handing out those particular fliers and wanted to figuratively strike back at the individual members of the group when the opportunity arose. This is a case of discrimination based on group identity. The owner objects to what the group is doing and proposes that he has a right to deny service to individuals seeking his services based solely upon the fact of those individual's membership in that group. Some agree that shared behavior is a valid reason one might decide to discriminate against members of a group when membership in the particular group entails,without exception, engaging in a particular behavior that the one discriminating finds abhorrent, in this case handing out fliers the owner finds offensive. Others do not agree and say all discrimination based upon group identity is invalid. Both sides of that argument have points that ought to be considered and both sides taken to extreme have the potential for harm. What I object to is the attitude that says my side of any issue ought to have the right to discriminate against members of groups we dislike but the other side ought not to be able to do so because we, of course, are right and they are wrong, we are innocent of all selfish interests and have only good intentions and they are malevolent villains with only evil intent.
No, it isn't about group identity. It's about specific actions. He feels he has a right to deny service to people that do specific things in his neighborhood. They hadn't done anything in his shop, which is where I think he erred, but it isn't about groups. It would be like saying a person is discriminating against the group of people that scream curse words in the street if a shop owner throws out some people who were doing just that outside his shop before they came in to drink some coffee.

What you imagined was that he was discriminating against pro-life people, or protestors against things he supports.
 
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Living Soul

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The rainbow in the pamphlet is meant to represent its original meaning before it was hijacked by the homosexual community. God chose not to abort all of mankind with the Flood, yet mankind chooses to abort unborn babies by the millions each year. I don't see where this pamphlet even mentions homosexuality specifically. This pamphlet does call out the typical leftist and their constant "plight" against issues like the mythical "gender pay gap", BLM, and fascist anti-fascist movement going on. These Christians probably picked this spot because they knew they could hit up a lot of ill-informed leftists all at once, while they order their $18 coffees in the morning.
 
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Hank77

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Yeah, that link also violates TOS. Trust me, I looked for a site for a while that matched the zealous standards of this site.
Thanks, I removed the link, I didn't think about the video when I posted it. :doh:
 
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