Gay Marriage

[FireDragon76]

It occurs to me many Christians have an attitude more akin to Gnosticism. They believe they are in a spiritual elite with special knowledge that the non-elect lack: they alone know how to order the world, they alone know God's will. This is coupled with the evangelical emphasis on biblicism and meticulous studying of the Scriptures for non-obvious knowledge.

I don't see this as compatible with the Gospel that God justifies sinners on the basis of faith alone. In the civil realm, Christians and non-Christians must interact with each other on the basis of reason and good-will. It's wrong to take the biblical symbols of light and darkness from the Johanine texts and misapply them to politics. The Holy Spirit illuminates human reason but he does not overturn human reason.

 

[David Brider]

While your in the area, I'd like to say, the main reason I, and I'd guess others, aren't tolerant of homosexuality is not so much because I'm overly or unfairly judgmental, like some on the site seem to think, it's just that I find it completely disgusting and refuse to get used to/accept it. I saw a show yesterday where they were about to kiss, and I actually covered my eyes, I'm that uncomfortable with it.

Why do you find it disgusting and uncomfortable? They're just people kissing.

 

[rjs330]

There's a variety of interpretations of that passage in our church. Some are traditional, others are not. In the end it is left up to the individual conscience to decide those things. It is not a church dividing issue.



Jesus is the center of our faith, we interpret everything in the Bible through God's self-revelation in his love and sacrifice. Jesus said that the whole Law and the Prophets depend on loving God and our neighbor. Some in our church interpret that to mean that gay relationships should be accorded the same respect as heterosexual ones.

You know I find it interesting that we can be so flippant with the "interpretation" of scripture. I find most often it's about the fact we don't like what it says so we "interpret" it to say something else. While the old law is not the believers law anymore there are things that carried over and are specified in the New Covenant as singular behavior. Homosexuality is one of those behaviors. HOWEVER, as a believer we are called to love and minister to people. It doesn't mean we excuse their sin or make light if their sin. It means we care for and love them and help them and minister to them. But it also does not mean that we say their sin is not sinful and make them ministers and priests.
If they are unbelievers we don't kick them out of the church or say they are not welcome. Jesus came to save the sinner not save the righteous. It's the sick that need an doctor not the healthy. But we also don't tell the sick they are going to be just fine either. So we should love and care and minster to them while at the same time letting them know they need a savior. Not because they are a homosexual but because they need Jesus just like everybody else.

 

[anna ~ grace]

If you lead a gay friend to Christ who happens to be legally married to a same-sex partner...would it be a sin for them to divorce? What about remarriage in a heterosexual relationship?

That's a good question. As marriage is in God's eyes a union blessed by Him between a man and a woman, a person leaving their same-sex partner to whom they'd been joined in a religious or legal ceremony would not be a divorce. It would be a step in the right direction.

 

[FireDragon76]

But we also don't tell the sick they are going to be just fine either. .

We should... if they trust in Jesus, they will be just fine. That's the central message of the entire Bible. We are made children of God by faith, and not works. We do not have to be perfect people for God to accept us as we are.

 

[rjs330]

We should... if they trust in Jesus, they will be just fine. That's the central message of the entire Bible. We are made children of God by faith, and not works. We do not have to be perfect people for God to accept us as we are.

I was talking about the unbeliever not the believer. That was my point. I'm not sure how you missed that. I guess I didn't explain it very well. What did Jesus say when they asked why he was hanging with sinners? He said it is they who need him. He said the healthy don't need a physician but the sick do. Unsaved people be they homosexuals or not need to be saved. And we need to minister to them not tell them they are just fine being a sinner. Jesus can save them and help them and give them grace. And we should too.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why do you find it disgusting and uncomfortable? They're just people kissing.

Don't mind me, I need professional help.

 

[SilverBear]

Don't mind me, I need professional help.

As you say, but David Brider's question is a good one and deserves an answer.

 

[SkyWriting]

I actually chuckled when I read this.
Jesus said nothing about feelings. He said sins. Just cause I got my feeling hurt it doesn't mean some actually sinned against me. And you didn't address the other verses that talk about seeing sin in others. Instead you went off on another tangent.

I wonder if you are struggling with something personal here and that's why you are having a hard time. Perhaps some believers were really harsh or mean to you. Which is also sinful. We are to be kind, gentle tenderhearted to people. Admittedly Christians fall short of that. I know I have. I have on these very boards. But I am working on that. So if someone including myself have treated you harshly please accept my humble apologies.

Wonder away. You'll have to be more specific, less wishing.
People do not sin against you. You are not God.
Sin is disobedience to God not you.
I am struggling with my mistake of listing sins against people
for decades, only to find that Sin has nothing to do with rules
or guidelines for life listed in scripture. Sin is when you do
something you know is wrong. My issues against "wrong doers"
was very misplaced. All those "Slippery slopes" I used to imagine
were poor preaching. All very sad. There are no slipping slopes.
The REASON you must forgive sins? Becasue you are mistaken.
Sin is not against you. You have not been faulted. You are a faulter.

10Then Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?” 11“No one,Lord,” she answered. “Neither do I condemn you, Jesusdeclared. “Now” go and sin no more.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

You are not God.

Thanks for reminding me.

 

[SkyWriting]

Thanks for reminding me.

Sin against people is imagined. That's why Jesus says it must be forgiven.
Jesus was kind enough not to say, "Becasue you are clueless, you must forgive others."
But other passages do cover that concept. Thank you Jesus.

 

[rjs330]

Sin against people is imagined. That's why Jesus says it must be forgiven.
Jesus was kind enough not to say, "Becasue you are clueless, you must forgive others."
But other passages do cover that concept. Thank you Jesus.

Jesus says

Watch yourselves! If your brother or sister sins, warn them to stop. If they change their hearts and lives, forgive them.Even if someone sins against you seven times in one day and returns to you seven times and says, ‘I am changing my ways,’ you must forgive that person.” - Luke 17:3-4 Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17:3-4 - Common English Bible

Sounds like Jesus is saying we can see sin in others. Look I get where you are coming from. It's just not biblical. Jesus did not say "if you think someone sinned against you you are mistaken and that's why you have to forgive.". He said if someone sins against you. No qualifiers no added words or sentences. It's pretty clear. I am sorry you can't see it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

As you say, but David Brider's question is a good one and deserves an answer.

Pretty sure I answered...do I need to define "disgusting" for any of you?

Kind of how I would find a dog hanging on someones knee type disgusting...unnatural, gross. And remember you pushed for an answer.

 

[SilverBear]

Pretty sure I answered...do I need to define "disgusting" for any of you?

Kind of how I would find a dog hanging on someones knee type disgusting...unnatural, gross. And remember you pushed for an answer.

No, you don't need to define disgusting. Your own willingness to associate an entire group of people with a humping dog is certainly disgusting.

 

[David Brider]

Pretty sure I answered...do I need to define "disgusting" for any of you?

Kind of how I would find a dog hanging on someones knee type disgusting...unnatural, gross. And remember you pushed for an answer.

I'm not asking you to define disgusting. I know what it means. I just can't understand why you'd think two people kissing is disgusting. There're a lot of disgusting things in the world, and - to me, at least - kissing isn't one of them.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

There're a lot of disgusting things in the world, and - to me, at least - kissing isn't one of them.

He doesn't have to defend himself for expressing a preference so stop badgering him.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's ok Paul, these things often lead to telling comments, like the classic:

There're a lot of disgusting things in the world, and - to me, at least - kissing isn't one of them

Because there are worse things, doesn't make *any* bad thing OK, but excuse it the best way you know how. And nice twist turning this into just a kissing issue.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, you don't need to define disgusting. Your own willingness to associate an entire group of people with a humping dog is certainly disgusting.

If it weren't for all those enabling them to hold on to their denial, (even their Churches are doing so) maybe I wouldn't have to be so harsh.

What some need to understand is I see what I'm doing as kind. When someone shuts reality out completely, drastic measures are required. And I see those who defend that, making themselves a proponent of that denial, very cruel and uncaring people.

Things aren't always as they seem.

And remember, Jesus's himself didn't come to just get along with others like some of you seem to want to do, even at the risk of seeing them lost. How much do you *really* care for your fellow man?

 

[SilverBear]

Does your church teach the Bible? and if so, why would it leave that part out?

Let's try this...first do you use the same bible as me, A KJV or something closely derived form that? If so, when you look up Leviticus 18:22 in the King James Version, does it read the same as it reads for me? Like this:

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

And if it does what do you/your church do with that, pretend it isn't there, mark it out, denial, explain it to mean something else? I'm honestly curious how one worships God and throws part of his word out or whatever you do with that and parts like it?

The Bible lists over 90 abominations forbidding such things as having a Christmas tree, getting a tattoo, using air freshener and modern agriculture. What does your church do about all these other abominations?

 

[SilverBear]

If it weren't for all those enabling them to hold on to their denial, (even their Churches are doing so) maybe I wouldn't have to be so harsh.

What some need to understand is I see what I'm doing as kind. When someone shuts reality out completely, drastic measures are required. And I see those who defend that, making themselves a proponent of that denial, very cruel and uncaring people.

What a coincidence, I think the same of you.