Gay Marriage

[KingCrimson250]

I just saw a massive Facebook group dedicated to the opposition of gay marriage and that got me thinking.

There are countries all around the world that are on their last legs, so to speak. There are all sorts of people who are impovershed to the point of starvation and death, plagued with diseases that are easily treatable with proper medicine. Our own streets are filled with the homeless and the destitute who are without hope for a future. Millions around the world are oppressed for their beliefs, their race, their class, or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead of addressing any of these problems, the average North American is more concerned with lining his or her own pockets. There are all sorts of problems we could theoretically solve, or at least help out with, but we don't, out of greed.

And yet the social issue that has got the Church up in arms is one man wanting to marry another? Like are we out of our collective minds? A bunch of children are starving and we say "Okay, turn the channel" but someone stands up and says that homosexuals should be able to marry and we say "How dare they?"

Anyone else think that there's something seriously wrong with this picture?

 

[soccerdad66]

How short sighted! Maybe you should consider what the real issue.

 

[SonicBOOM]

gay marriege has the most press. It's obvious that self-glorifying followers of christ [if you can find a way to un-oxymoron that] will dig their feet into the issue of gay marrege. "I'll sign the pledge, put my name there! Let everyone know that I'm against this!"

the parts in bold make their motivation obvious.

you would never see people like this giving money to the poor! there's not nearly a big enough crowd. No one will notice them! Whats the point?

 

[SonicBOOM]

How short sighted! Maybe you should consider what the real issue.

the real issue is even though the idea of gay marriege is sinful according to the bible, the issue has been beaten to death for years and this ONE tiny [yes, I really mean what I say when I say "tiny"] issue is clowding out EVERY OTHER teaching of christ!

Look I'm against gay marriege, but my time is better spent elsewhere. Here's the way I see it.

1. I can spend my time and energy and money loving people and giving to those in need, they glorify God and than the world gets cleansed in fire and my works are remembered by God because the people who I've made an impact on are there after the refining

2. I can spend my time and money and energy speaking against a political issue like gay marriege. I can succeed in helping further a written law that is against gay marriege. the world will than get cleansed by fire, the document will burn up, this nation will burn up along with it's laws, and all I have left is me, God, and those lives I've impacted and I soon relize that I spent my entire life on something that is now burned up.

 

[Stravinsk]

There are countries all around the world that are on their last legs, so to speak. There are all sorts of people who are impovershed to the point of starvation and death, plagued with diseases that are easily treatable with proper medicine. Our own streets are filled with the homeless and the destitute who are without hope for a future. Millions around the world are oppressed for their beliefs, their race, their class, or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead of addressing any of these problems, the average North American is more concerned with lining his or her own pockets. There are all sorts of problems we could theoretically solve, or at least help out with, but we don't, out of greed.

And yet the social issue that has got the Church up in arms is one man wanting to marry another? Like are we out of our collective minds? A bunch of children are starving and we say "Okay, turn the channel" but someone stands up and says that homosexuals should be able to marry and we say "How dare they?"

Anyone else think that there's something seriously wrong with this picture?

I think there would be something seriously wrong with the picture if it were correct. Perhaps the generalisation fits to some extent, but there are lots of people who give to charities, help the homeless, work in soup kitchens, even travel overseas and help the less fortunate in various ways directly or through contributions. I'd bet alot of these people are also against gay marriage.

The issue of gay "marriage" is deeper than it is usually framed. With regards to both the church, and society at large. If you need to ask "why" that is, then perhaps it's worth considering the implications a little more than "if two people love each other then...."...

 

[Sketcher]

Our own streets are filled with the homeless and the destitute who are without hope for a future.

I live in a pretty economically depressed area, and that's not the case. You will find a lot of people looking for work, though.

Millions around the world are oppressed for their beliefs, their race, their class, or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Instead of addressing any of these problems, the average North American is more concerned with lining his or her own pockets. There are all sorts of problems we could theoretically solve, or at least help out with, but we don't, out of greed.

And yet the social issue that has got the Church up in arms is one man wanting to marry another?

First, I'm not seeing the connection between greed and forbidding gay "marriage." You'll have to enlighten me.

Second, the hard left has pushed the gay marriage issue onto the center stage. A rather encapsulating moment I think was in the Republican primaries when the moderators from CNN and MSNBC pushed all these questions about "Don't ask, don't tell" on the candidates, and the candidates gave their quick answers and clearly wanted to talk about other things. Not that they were afraid of the issue, but it's that what people do privately simply was not at the front of their minds. We'll vote against gay "marriage," but we'd generally rather spend our time talking about protecting the unborn or creating jobs for people or keeping Americans safe. Most of us are only talking about it because someone else forced the issue.

Going back to who's put it out there, these are people who never really did like Christians too much. Their goal is a society that gives equal validity to gay unions and straight unions both legally and in the public conscience. And of course, to punish those who disagree with it much as racists are punished today. They don't care that homosexuality is a behavior rather than an inborn trait which cannot be controlled. They don't care that according to God's word, gay "marriage" is both an oxymoron and a blasphemy. If we hold to the Christian view, then that's our problem and we shouldn't have the right to speak our views or run our businesses according to these views. They want to use the law as a club to force this change, in combination with the propaganda campaign that we're seeing almost every day. You mentioned that millions around the world are oppressed because of their beliefs. Which brings me to my third point: we don't want to join them.

 

[Jerimi]

First let me say that I have many Gay friends and they are some of the best people I know. More kind, loving, caring and helpful than any Christian I know. Preventing them from marriage has nothing to do with anything accept for a bunch of conservatives who get offended over the smallest thing that does not effect them.

I would ask, what does Gay Marriage have to do with YOUR life? Are you Gay? Do you want to marry someone who is? No? Then why bother with it. Let them be happy. Let them live as they wish to live with their partner. It Does Not Affect You!

I do agree that we need to be focusing on other issues. I do agree that we need to be concentrating on things which truly matter. For instance: Sending medical supplies to Africa is not enough. We need to provide facitilities for them to make their own. we need to provide education so that they can become self sufficient.
Give a man a fish...

I am going to say something that I am likely going to regret because it is likely going to offend a good number of people here. If it DOES offend you then perhaps you should evaluate your life instead of my words.

American Christians, as a generalization, are the most hypocritical, self serving, self rightous, selfish, manipulative, and blind group of people in the world.

As Ghandi said, "I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians for they are so unlike your Christ."

We get offended by other peoples life style. Why? Because we are so concerned that other people are following the rules that we become judge and jury. Why are we even watching what others do when we, ourselves, have not gotten to where we need to be?

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. John 8:7

We cast a whole lot of stones, yet live daily in sin.

 

[overit]

Kudos to most of the posts here!

 

[Inkachu]

So we should abandon one godly principle to try and take care of others? Umm...nope.

Yes, we should do our best to take care of our own needy, and to help the rest of the world as we are able. If you haven't noticed, we're trillions of dollars in debt right now.

As for gay marriage, it's ungodly and will wreak havoc on the fabric of society if it becomes prevalent and encouraged. And since it's on the forefront of the gay agenda right now, right now is the time to address it. Marriage is more than a social/legal institution, it's something that was created by God and needs to be defended. You might not think allowing gay marriage will ever effect you, but that is burying your head in the sand. Homosexuality is a sin like any other, and it's frankly pathetic to me that Christians are becoming so wishy-washy about this one particular sin while still staunchly opposing others like abortion. Supporting gay marriage is no different than supporting abortion; neither one directly "affects you" and BOTH are equally abominable in God's eyes.

I'm steppin' off this thread before I get too angry, so please don't post snarky replies. Thanks.

 

[overit]

Ink-I hear many people saying this about the "fabric of society" being destroyed-which really sounds like repeated rhetoric-I would like to ask those that say this to explain WHAT they mean by that-bullet point if neceesary-HOW will it destroy the moral fabric of society? I'm not being snarky-I actually am in a very calm discussion mode today I'm hoping in this thread and the other I can have the same spirit of reply though.

How does it wreak havoc on straight marriages (any more then our divorce rate-spousal abuse rates-infidelity rates) or society?

Who is society-how are they affecte-how would it be destroyed-how does Joe and Steves decision to marry affect me, my kids, my social network?

How does divorce, infidelity and maritall abuse, child abuse, etc... affect my surrounding? Cause there's a lot more there that can directly affect me then what two men/women decide to do with themselves. Why aren't more Christians concerned with correcting these problems? OH....perhaps because they consist of probably 50% at least of the ones commiting these things-creating these problems? The same people that oppose gay marriage (some that I know)...also opposed the women's domestic violence act.....it's just so hypocritical that we want to worry and put all these efforts in regards to gay "marriage" yet things that DO destroy our society are ignored, swept under the carpet, disregarded, not fought against, and even opposed.

I always ask this-and I'm not directing only at you Ink-others also because I never get an answer or even remotely logical one.

Asides from religious convictions on the right/wrong of gay marriage (we don't like in a theocracy where only Christians rules/views are applied)....so what is the "fabric of society" entail-how is it destroyed?

 

[Redstiletto]

I think that gay peoples are peoples too.

Think of it this way.... what if the norm was Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve. And it was controversal to marry someone of a different gender?

Wouldnt you want the same rights as people who were gay? Wouldnt you like to be able to celebrate your love with your family and friends? Instead of hiding behind a mask because it was taboo to some people?

I think that people are people, no matter what race, color, gender, sexual orientation, beliefs, politcal views or marital status. We all live here together, why the heck cant we get along? Its not like surviver, we cant vote people off the island, so get over it.

Sorry, but I could go on for hours on this soap box... but my ADD will derail me, ask Im_A... we had this conversation,.. it took almost all day.

 

[overit]

I'm posting something I did in the other thread over here about this matter:

And Jesus made mention MANY times about the poor, the opressed, in essence those discriminated and kept down by others-it was really one of His biggest callings/ministries on earth ....much more so then gays (which funny enough-HE "Jesus" own personal words say nothing about).

It's a curious thing-perhaps belonging more in the other thread-so I may move this...but followers tend to rally up more about issues Paul discussed or the OT then Jesus own words-that seems to be an issue the conservative Right actually works contrary to in regards to Scripture

 

[Luther073082]

I agree with Ink we shouldn't abandon one Godly princple because there are many others. And I will note that in most of those countries the only thing that will fix it is military force stabilizing the nation. The vast majority of empoverished nations are that way because there is no sense of stable government.

overit> The problem is the definition of marriage defines what society is. Marriage has been the bedrock of society for years.

For example Julius Ceaser was often made fun of for "Being in love with his wife." Now that sounds ridiculous to us. But their definition of marriage was not for love at the time. In fact loving women made a man weak then.

Now how that applies to us is that culturally we do not want our culture to be a morally "Do whatever you want". But making marriage into marry who you want starts to make the culture into that. Into one where there is no moral standard on what we do. For example you say we should let them get married because of Freedom. But under that ideal then we would have to allow multiple marriages, incestious marriages, marriages to animals, marriages to objects etc.

Now most gay marriage advocates are not advocating for such marriages. But the principle that they advocate their own marriages from is the same princeple as anyone could advocate any type of marriage from.

This makes society into a free for all. There are a lot of different problems that could come from that.

 

[Sketcher]

I would ask, what does Gay Marriage have to do with YOUR life? Are you Gay? Do you want to marry someone who is? No? Then why bother with it. Let them be happy. Let them live as they wish to live with their partner. It Does Not Affect You!

It has already affected Christian doctors, Christian photographers, and Christians who run dating sites.

They came first for the doctors, and I didn't speak up because I was not a doctor.

Then they came for the photographers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a photographer.

Then they came for the matchmakers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a matchmaker.

Then they came for me . . .

 

[Luther073082]

I'm posting something I did in the other thread over here about this matter:

And Jesus made mention MANY times about the poor, the opressed, in essence those discriminated and kept down by others-it was really one of His biggest callings/ministries on earth ....much more so then gays (which funny enough-HE "Jesus" own personal words say nothing about).

It's a curious thing-perhaps belonging more in the other thread-so I may move this...but followers tend to rally up more about issues Paul discussed or the OT then Jesus own words-that seems to be an issue the conservative Right actually works contrary to in regards to Scripture

Thats because no one is against helping the poor. The rallying that Christians do every day to help the poor does not make the news. There is nothing about helping the poor that is controversial. Its not like you have to fight anything or anyone in order to help the poor.

Its real easy to help the poor through service or through money. Things like gay marriage and abortion actually have to be fought for.

And I would guess that if you took a look at the money that Christians put towards helping the poor vs the amount they put towards fighting gay marriage you would probably find that there is 5 to 10 times more money going to the poor.

Your treasure is where your heart is.

 

[Redstiletto]

It has already affected Christian doctors, Christian photographers, and Christians who run dating sites.

They came first for the doctors, and I didn't speak up because I was not a doctor.

Then they came for the photographers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a photographer.

Then they came for the matchmakers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a matchmaker.

Then they came for me . . .

You make it sound like a plague or a cheesy horror movie.

Hate to be the one to clue you in... you cant catch gayism. Its a choice, a decision, a feeling. Not a plague or a disease or a sickness as some feel it might be.

You cant take an antibiotic and get rid of it. Its their way of life.

 

[Sketcher]

You make it sound like a plague or a cheesy horror movie.

Hate to be the one to clue you in... you cant catch gayism. Its a choice, a decision, a feeling. Not a plague or a disease or a sickness as some feel it might be.

You cant take an antibiotic and get rid of it. Its their way of life.

You make it sound as if I'm afraid of homosexuality. I'm not afraid of that. What I am concerned about is having my freedom of religion trampled on in the name of "tolerance."

 

[Jerimi]

It has already affected Christian doctors, Christian photographers, and Christians who run dating sites.

They came first for the doctors, and I didn't speak up because I was not a doctor.

Then they came for the photographers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a photographer.

Then they came for the matchmakers, and I didn't speak up because I was not a matchmaker.

Then they came for me . . .

If Christian's had not started opressing them, they would not feel that they have to retaliate.

It all starts somewhere. Too often we want to point fingers rather than take on the problem. The issue is simple, we opressed them, they retaliated, it became a war.

We are not God and we have NO right to dictate morality. Our choices are not the choices that everyone HAS to make. Regardless of what we think we should do, they need to be given the freedom to choose for themselves. If you do not believe that then you do not believe in America. To tell someone they can't do something because YOU don't think it is right is very arrogant and prideful. Neither of which is very Christ like.

 

[Stravinsk]

The real root of this issue is pretty basic. Is homosexuality - that is - homosexual urges or acts or fantacies - sinful?

Contemporary media tells us it is inborn and gentic.

The bible tells us it is a consequence of sin and rebellion (Romans 1:27) and God says it is "detestable" (Lev 20:13). Further, the example of Sodom and Gomorrah isn't a lesson in in-hospitality, but the end result of a very sinful people. Not a whole lot is said about Sodom and Gomorrah except that they were excessively wicked and very sexually depraved(which reminds me of the Romans passage above). I've never seen simple in-hospitality in the bible described as excessively wicked in and of itself.

The issue of gay "marriage" goes beyond civil unions. Many of these people want to adopt and are spearheading the push to teach very young children to "explore" homosexuality or at the very least to annihilate detest for it.

Jesus had some pretty strong statements for people who teach children to sin.

 

[Luther073082]

If Christian's had not started opressing them, they would not feel that they have to retaliate.

It all starts somewhere. Too often we want to point fingers rather than take on the problem. The issue is simple, we opressed them, they retaliated, it became a war.

Thats ridiculous. Other Christians oppressed people in the past.

Thats just like if the KKK goes out and hangs a black guy some black people running out and finding a random white guy and hanging him.

We are not God and we have NO right to dictate morality. Our choices are not the choices that everyone HAS to make. Regardless of what we think we should do, they need to be given the freedom to choose for themselves. If you do not believe that then you do not believe in America. To tell someone they can't do something because YOU don't think it is right is very arrogant and prideful. Neither of which is very Christ like.

Ok I think thats going a bit far. Marriage is unique it has a greater power to influence society then just about anything else. Making it a free for all makes everything into a free for all.

Any argument used for gay marriage is an argument that can be used for any other type of marriage.