Gay marriage. Are you for or against it?

ChristianCenturion

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They get questioned because those who are against allowing gays legal civil marriage have been universally unable to provide a secular reason for it that holds any water.

Religious reasons for disallowing legal civil marriage are disallowed because laws must have secular purposes.

Well actually, that has been repeatedly shown to be false and I don't mean just in this thread. Also demonstrated in this thread are that the empty cries of denial are a quite common staple for the promotion of homosexuality.
"I want a Secularist reason and there is no reason."
Well, ALL citizens have rights too.
That's not a reason, "I want a Secularist reason and there is no reason!"
Well, it is an immoral behavior, a sexual perversion, etc.
That's not a reason, "I WANT A SECULAR REASON AND THERE IS NO REASON!!"
Well, that model is inherently incapable of needing all the provisions found in the marriage contract and other contracts are available.
That's not a reason, "I WANT A SECULAR REASON AND THERE IS NO REASON!!!"
And on and on it goes until people see the pointlessness of trying to explain. Actually, it becomes more of a test of patience and who is willing to beat a dead horse. Since I see the States are taking care of the attempt to force promotion through the government, the gay advocacy can scream the denial at the top of their lungs if they want. Free country and all. :)
 
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crazyfingers

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Well actually, that has been repeatedly shown to be false and I don't mean just in this thread. Also demonstrated in this thread are that the empty cries of denial are a quite common staple for the promotion of homosexuality.
"I want a Secularist reason and there is no reason."
Well, ALL citizens have rights too.
That's not a reason, "I want a Secularist reason and there is no reason!"
Well, it is an immoral behavior, a sexual perversion, etc.
That's not a reason, "I WANT A SECULAR REASON AND THERE IS NO REASON!!"
Well, that model is inherently incapable of needing all the provisions found in the marriage contract and other contracts are available.
That's not a reason, "I WANT A SECULAR REASON AND THERE IS NO REASON!!!"
And on and on it goes until people see the pointlessness of trying to explain. Actually, it becomes more of a test of patience and who is willing to beat a dead horse. Since I see the States are taking care of the attempt to force promotion through the government, the gay advocacy can scream the denial at the top of their lungs if they want. Free country and all. :)

I responded to your previous post and so did others. Your argument is bogus and you must really must know that.

And capitalizing words in your post changes nothing.

The same argument that you used could be used as follows:

"The majority of citizens believe that ChristianCenturian has bad morals and should be locked up. Therefore ChristianCenturian will be locked up for a secular reason."

Nonsense. That's not a good secular reason to lock you up and the same apples to those who would deny same sex legal civil marriage.

If you claim that there is a valid secular reason for denying same sex legal civil marriage then provide it.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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... The same argument that you used could be used as follows:

"The majority of citizens believe that ChristianCenturian has bad morals and should be locked up. Therefore ChristianCenturian will be locked up for a secular reason."

Nonsense. That's not a good secular reason to lock you up and the same apples to those who would deny same sex legal civil marriage...

Well, at least I can see the faulty reasoning is consistent, because you are in error with the above example as well.
There are plenty of laws that involve morality that either do not endorse or have consequences as being criminal offenses. I, as a part of society, must deal with that or find myself in jail, prison, unsupported, or whatever. That's life. :wave:
 
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crazyfingers

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Well, at least I can see the faulty reasoning is consistent, because you are in error with the above example as well.
There are plenty of laws that involve morality that either do not endorse or have consequences as being criminal offenses. I, as a part of society, must deal with that or find myself in jail, prison, unsupported, or whatever. That's life. :wave:

Wrong again on the issue of gay marriage. When it comes to homosexuality and gay marriage, the morality question is 100% religion based.

Get a grip. The arguments against gay marriage are 100% religious or irrational bigotry. Neither of those are valid secular reasons.
 
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eddieJ

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At the end of the day, government represents all of the people. In the United States, the people get to vote. Gay marriage is not doing well. No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage, it's unnatural. No one has to yell bigotry either.

Do you think American laws appeared out of thin air? Do you know there is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments on the Supreme Court Building? You want a reason for that?

Right now, people are doing whatever they want to whoever they want all over the world. I think a child growing up with two moms, two dads, his ex-dad and ex-mom, and various marginally related siblings would have problems.

It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.




God bless,
Ed
 
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crazyfingers

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At the end of the day, government represents all of the people. In the United States, the people get to vote. Gay marriage is not doing well.

So if the majority of people wanted to put you in jail, that would be OK?

No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage, it's unnatural. No one has to yell bigotry either.

It's not unnatural as it's seen in nature across the animal kingdom. Nature proves you wrong. That's one of the first bogus arguments that has already been shot down.

And if it was unnatural, so what? What other man created things do you wish to outlaw?

More bad arguments.

Do you think American laws appeared out of thin air? Do you know there is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments on the Supreme Court Building? You want a reason for that?

That's a very novice question which at the end of the day is also a bogus argument. I suggest that you start a topic on that if you'd like to understand what's wrong with your statement.

However, you might read this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp


Right now, people are doing whatever they want to whoever they want all over the world. I think a child growing up with two moms, two dads, his ex-dad and ex-mom, and various marginally related siblings would have problems.

Your opinions are not supported by the evidence.

Also, it has nothing to do with gay marriage given that gays can adopt kids without being married and gays being married does not say that they might or might not want to have kids.

If a gay couple promised not to have kids would you let them marry?

It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.

False. I suggest that you see what the social security administration has to say for starters.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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At the end of the day, government represents all of the people. In the United States, the people get to vote. Gay marriage is not doing well. No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage, it's unnatural. No one has to yell bigotry either.
The US government represents the most well-funded candidates. Indeed, from your argument, given that all US presidents are white male Christians, you seem to imply that all of the people are white male Christians!

Do you think American laws appeared out of thin air? Do you know there is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments on the Supreme Court Building? You want a reason for that?
I'm sure your aware that the US was not found on Christianity or Christian morality.

Right now, people are doing whatever they want to whoever they want all over the world. I think a child growing up with two moms, two dads, his ex-dad and ex-mom, and various marginally related siblings would have problems.
And I think the wouldn't. Wow, look at that, my argument wins by virture of the null hypothesis. You make the claim, you support it. Otherwise we default back to the null.

It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.
Different-sex marriages are given special legal rights that same-sex marriages are not. This is because the law does not recognise the latter. This is an irrational blind-spot that only exists because of irrational and religious preconceptions.
Try being a gay man and be rejected to see your partner in hospital. We are not asking for 'extra' rights, we simply want the same rights straight married couples are granted.
 
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Spherical Time

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The best argument people likely have is religion. And I'd bet most gay people aren't Christian - I wonder why. Would YOU worship a god that persecutes you?
Actually I know several very religious gay people. Sometimes people do worship a god that persecutes them.

Interesting that the argument from ignorance is related to the argument from personal belief. I think that it's funny that a Christian would reject that argument.

I'm for gay marriage, of course, but against Christian marriage. Can anyone give a valid secular reason for Christian marriage rather than secular marriage?
 
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chalice_thunder

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It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.

How about we send the attornet bill to YOU?!

Should straight people who marry have special rights?
 
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merseyferrier

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I support it. If there's a god who really hates homosexuals, let him worry about them. There's no point in getting worked up about it. Banning gay marriage does nothing; people will still be gay. The difference is that they'll be able to visit one another and have rights that two people in a committed relationship should have.
 
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chalice_thunder

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Banning gay marriage does nothing; people will still be gay. .

This right here is an excellent point.

People will still be gay - but a ban on gay marriage means that society gets to hold us in contempt and scorn, which is really what some of them want anyway...SCAPEGOATS.
 
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sparklecat

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It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.

Because getting a lawyer and stating that you want it to be so will make the government grant you financial breaks they only give to married couples.
 
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TooCurious

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eddieJ said:
At the end of the day, government represents all of the people.

Yup. Even the gay ones. And it must protect ALL of their rights.

eddieJ said:
In the United States, the people get to vote.

About some things, yes. You can't vote away a person or group's constutituional rights, however.

eddieJ said:
Gay marriage is not doing well.

There's usually resistance to positive social change from conservative quarters.

eddieJ said:
No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage,

I guess it's true that you don't need to hate someone in order to want to deprive them of equality under law. I guess.

eddieJ said:
it's unnatural.

Actually, it isn't. Didn't we already go over this? :scratch:

eddieJ said:
No one has to yell bigotry either.

I think that speaking calmly will get us all a lot farther than yelling.

eddieJ said:
Do you think American laws appeared out of thin air?

No; they were passed by legislators. Your point?

eddieJ said:
Do you know there is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments on the Supreme Court Building? You want a reason for that?

There's also a statue of the pagan personification of Justice, if I recall correctly. Religious decorations do not mean that our laws are religious.

eddieJ said:
Right now, people are doing whatever they want to whoever they want all over the world.

...I'm not seeing how this statement connects up to anything in this discussion.

eddieJ said:
I think a child growing up with two moms, two dads, his ex-dad and ex-mom, and various marginally related siblings would have problems.

Right, because if a child has more than two parental figures to love him, he's clearly dysfunctional. :doh:

eddieJ said:
It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.

Through several lengthy legal procedures that could still be ignored or appealed by one partner's family, should that partner die or be hospitalized, they could get SOME of those rights. Heterosexual couples, by constrast, get all those rights simply by getting married. Half an hour in Vegas, as opposed to weeks or months of lawyer's fees, and more legally solid at that. I'm not saying that Vegas "drive-thru" weddings are a desirable thing, but the point is that this discrepancy speaks to a fundamental inequality at work here.
 
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At the end of the day, government represents all of the people. In the United States, the people get to vote.
Correct, and the people voted to not let the people vote away rights for the minority. And rightly so.

Gay marriage is not doing well. No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage, it's unnatural. No one has to yell bigotry either.
Gay marriage is doing better every day. You cannot stop an idea whose time has come. The USA is one of the last modern Western nations to not legalize same-sex unions in some capacity on the federal level.

Do you think American laws appeared out of thin air? Do you know there is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments on the Supreme Court Building? You want a reason for that?
Demonstrably false.

It would appear that any gay couple could go to an attorney right now and get all the rights they want.
It's an unequal system then. By mere virtue of being attracted to the opposite sex, a heterosexual can waltz down to the JoP, plop down $70 and get a marriage certificate and all that it provides. If a gay couple wants to do the same, they have to hire lawyers and go through mountains of paperwork, and at the end of the day, straights still have more rights through their government-sanctioned marriage.
 
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HTackett

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I have a few close friends that are gay. I don't dissapprove of their life decisions but I don't approve either. I love them for who they are, and what a good person they are. I always wish them love and happiness. I know God is agaisnt gays, but what about loving thy neighbor? Or the old saying treat others how you want to be treated. I don't think Homosexual couples should be punished for wanting to make a union with someone they truely love. If we were to ban it, then we should ban interacial couples as well, different religion couples. There are so many things that just go with that.
 
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Valgaav

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Well, it is an immoral behavior, a sexual perversion, etc.

If you honestly think that that counts as a reason, then get out of the topic now, as no one wants someone as ignorant as you.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of gay animals on earth. Why not humans too? What, it's only perversion when it's humans?

No one has to hate anyone to be against gay marriage, it's unnatural.

See my above comment about the animals, and how it's found in nature.
 
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beechy

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Well, at least I can see the faulty reasoning is consistent, because you are in error with the above example as well.
There are plenty of laws that involve morality that either do not endorse or have consequences as being criminal offenses. I, as a part of society, must deal with that or find myself in jail, prison, unsupported, or whatever. That's life. :wave:
I don’t understand this statement for the following reasons:

1) The fact that a law “involves morality” (whatever that means) doesn’t impact its legality.

2) The concept of constitutionality extends into civil law as well, so whether a law is or is not punishable by a criminal penalty is irrelevant to this discussion.

3) What does your ability to “deal with” laws that “involve morality” but do not have criminal consequences have to do with whether or not you’ll end up in jail? Wouldn’t you be more likely to end up in jail if you couldn’t “deal with” laws that do have a criminal penalty?
 
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beechy

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At the end of the day, government represents all of the people. In the United States, the people get to vote. Gay marriage is not doing well.
While we're on the topic of majorities, what do you think of this one? Brand new crop of voters coming up to bat.
 
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