Gambling! C'moooooon SEVEN!

[mpok1519]

The Bible says that gambling is a sin; its a sin because of the desire to accumulate wealth without having to work hard, or exchange something else with fair and equal value. Usury, covetousness; yes these are attributes of spinning the wheel, or rolling the die.

But what about Poker? I have been playing for a while now, and my winnings have expontentially outweighed the spending/risk. To me, poker is less gambling and more skillful because a) there is no house advantage, its just people versus other people. b)it takes math and people skills to read people effectively. c)in order to win consistently, you must make the right decisions based upon incomplete information, which you yourself must complete. d) you can bluff- the most difficult thing to pull off in poker- it hardly works against certain players, but if you can pullit off, there must be some kind of skill involved.

Is it gambling when one must apply skill, and hard work to win? To me Poker isn't a scratch-off ticket, or a roll of the die, knock on wood, or the lottery when you need more than just luck to win.

what do you guys think about Poker? Or just gambling?

 

[DeathMagus]

I consider poker to be gambling because the vast majority of one's success in the game is based on luck. Now, since luck doesn't really favor anyone in particular, skill is very useful to tip the odds in your favor. But regardless, most of the game is what cards you turn up.

 

[mpok1519]

oh, I don't know; I won the other night and I only had to show about six hands in the frame of four hours. the majority of hands I won I didn't need to show because the opponet folded for the most part.

but you're right; you do need luck; it is possible to continuously get the same Seven-deuce off-suit over and over(one night I counted like twelve times in a row I got that same hand, unidentical suits, however) but when that happens you usully have to shift gears and begin to make outrageous bluffs to win the pot....this is not recommended, however.

 

[Skaloop]

oh, I don't know; I won the other night and I only had to show about six hands in the frame of four hours. the majority of hands I won I didn't need to show because the opponet folded for the most part.

Which is still luck of a sort; you were lucky that the other guy had nothing after the flop instead of a straight flush. It wasn't luck giving you a good hand, it was luck giving him a hand he didn't want to play.

 

[WarEagle]

What verse says that gambling, in and of itself, is a sin?

 

[mpok1519]

more or less, is gambling unethical?

Skaloop>> not necessarily; the guy can flop a straight-flush, but i have the same chances to flop a higher straight flush(examples, he holds A-2 spades, I have 6-7 spades), and he still has the option to fold a straight flush. I don't think lucks a big factor when it all depends upon the action of the person for the most part; you're more likely to win when you know you have the best hand- also, reading people and picking up tells and making the right decision is a skill needed to be successful. You can push someone off of their pocket-aces post-flop sometimes; of course its risky, which in itself, is indeed a gamble.

I suppose its only skill if you win; its bad luck if you lose. lol

"Avoid every appearance of evil" says to stay away from gambling, WarEagle; is ignoring this guideline a sin?

 

[WarEagle]

"Avoid every appearance of evil" says to stay away from gambling, WarEagle; is ignoring this guideline a sin?

OK. I see that, since you couldn't show where the Bible calls it a sin, you're taking a new tack. OK. I'll play along.

What's evil about it?

 

[mpok1519]

anything done irresponsibley with irrevocable consequences might be constrewed as evil one could suppose.

Some think that its a dishonest living; if one wants to make a quick-buck without having to really work for it.


"Gambling is a way of practicing dishonesty. It is a form of taking what does not rightfully belong to a person. Interested in obtaining something for nothing, the gambler tries in every way to attain his ends, and usually is concerned to learn all the "tricks" he can. He is interested in "fleecing" those that are inexperienced. Gambling often takes the wages from innocent mothers and children and returns nothing. Along with gambling frequently goes cheating, and both are forms of dishonesty. Paul states, "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth" Ephesians 4:28. Although the word "gambling" does not appear in the Bible, the practice is clearly condemned in numerous passages of scripture. Gambling is based on the evil desire to get money or goods which belong to someone else without giving fair value in exchange. The Bible calls this sin "covetousness" and makes it clear that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Romans 1:28-32). Because gambling encourages the "getting something for nothing" philosophy, it also encourages laziness and indolence. Men and women who set out on a career of gambling shun honest labor and become parasites. States and cities where gambling is legalized and a "big business" become mere parasites living off the productive labor of others. Such statements as Paul made in II Thessalonians 3:10,11, certainly conflict with the gambler's ideal of living. "
from http://www.bible.ca/s-gambling.htm


Now, if its evil, I don't know; is potentially hurting oneself evil? who knows. Sinful, yes, when taken to a certain degree of irresponsibility that it taken an effect on your family....I suppose....

 

[FaithLikeARock]

mpok said in the beginning that gambling is a sin because it's gaining without working. I believe it's also a sin however because of what it encourages and because of how easily it can become addictive and thus harmful to a person. It's rather like how the Bible doesn't specifically condemn doing drugs but you can see how it would be wrong through what the Bible says.

Unless you're going to be consistent and say that it's a-okay for Christians to shoot heroin? I doubt it.

Poker requires the same amount of luck though I suppose it's slightly better since it at least has the advantage of being social and requires more than just pulling a lever. But it's mostly luck all the same.

 

[mpok1519]

but gambling doesnt always have to be sinful; a friendly low-stakes poker game is relatively harmless to one's pocket-book, and good for the social scene.

 

[WarEagle]

"Gambling is a way of practicing dishonesty.

Gambling is not inherently dishonest. True, people may cheat, but it's the cheating that is the sin, not the gambling.

It is a form of taking what does not rightfully belong to a person. Interested in obtaining something for nothing, the gambler tries in every way to attain his ends, and usually is concerned to learn all the "tricks" he can.

Then it's his averice that's the sin, not the gambling, itself.

He is interested in "fleecing" those that are inexperienced. Gambling often takes the wages from innocent mothers and children and returns nothing.

That's the irresponsibility of the mothers and children, not any inherent sinfulness in gambling.

Paul states, "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth" Ephesians 4:28. Although the word "gambling" does not appear in the Bible, the practice is clearly condemned in numerous passages of scripture.

...which you have been unable to provide, in spite of being asked to several times over the course of two seperate threads now.

The Bible calls this sin "covetousness"

Where? What verse?

Because gambling encourages the "getting something for nothing" philosophy...

What casino or racetrack tells anybody that they can win money without first betting money?

Men and women who set out on a career of gambling shun honest labor and become parasites.

That's a character flaw on the part of the individual, not inherent sinfulness on the part of gambling.

Now, if its evil, I don't know

You just said it was. Is it or isn't it? Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?

 

[FaithLikeARock]

You know what they say about setting a good example mpok?

That's like saying smoking a cigarette now and then isn't that bad. Despite what the rest of the world sees. Doing something even once may not be dangerous to you but if someone who knows you well sees it, they might engage in it without knowing the consequences. All people need to do is see or hear about something to become interested in it.

Not to mention you're pouring more money into a super giant which drains hundreds of people of everything they have without any remorse and the more you give to them the more they'll want.

 

[mpok1519]

the double minded man? you mean the man who looked at each side of the argument and tries to understand each side as to make a well-informed and justified opinion or perogative? I bet the Bible praises such an individual.

anyway, its the mindles self-indulgence without regard to consequence thats the real evil and sin, if anything, but hey, listen, Im not here to say whats evil and whats not and whos evil and whos not; thats not my style.

 

[WarEagle]

the double minded man? you mean the man who looked at each side of the argument and tries to understand each side as to make a well-informed and justified opinion or perogative?

No. I mean the person who declares something "evil" and then declares something "not evil".

I bet the Bible praises such an individual.

Actually, it calls him a fool.

anyway, its the mindles self-indulgence without regard to consequence thats the real evil and sin, if anything, but hey, listen, Im not here to say whats evil and whats not and whos evil and whos not; thats not my style.

And yet, you've done just that pretty consistently.

 

[mpok1519]

Faith >> I suppose it seems innocent when you're a kid just playing with your aunts uncles and grandparents playing for pennies and nickels, and how they seem to let the kids win on Christmas after-noon.

but I do know your point; but im not a good example for people, I'll admit. I'm more fond of 'do what i say not what i do'. But thats just one of my flaws...

 

[mpok1519]

No. I mean the person who declares something "evil" and then declares something "not evil".

I don't get to declare whats evil. God does.

Actually, it calls him a fool.

Then its not the example I described.

And yet, you've done just that pretty consistently.

you must just misunderstand me, or are probably just confused. =)

 

[lawtonfogle]

OK. I see that, since you couldn't show where the Bible calls it a sin, you're taking a new tack. OK. I'll play along.

What's evil about it?

Well, you know any young to middle age man who volunteers to help/chaperon children must be sexually attracted to them. Ok, some of you may not believe this to be true, but I have heard this over and over. Anyways, that is appearing to be evil, so males (who aren't old grandfather figures, and then even some of them) should not volunteer to help/chaperon kids.

See, appearance of evil is quite tricky, because anything can make you appear to be evil.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You know what they say about setting a good example mpok?

That's like saying smoking a cigarette now and then isn't that bad. Despite what the rest of the world sees. Doing something even once may not be dangerous to you but if someone who knows you well sees it, they might engage in it without knowing the consequences. All people need to do is see or hear about something to become interested in it.

Not to mention you're pouring more money into a super giant which drains hundreds of people of everything they have without any remorse and the more you give to them the more they'll want.

Wait, how did you get from cigarettes to Wal-Mart?

 

[lawtonfogle]

the double minded man? you mean the man who looked at each side of the argument and tries to understand each side as to make a well-informed and justified opinion or perogative? I bet the Bible praises such an individual.

I'm pretty sure that is what Solomon did.

anyway, its the mindles self-indulgence without regard to consequence thats the real evil and sin, if anything, but hey, listen, Im not here to say whats evil and whats not and whos evil and whos not; thats not my style.

Which is true of anything, including eating and helping others (yes, helping others can become addictive).

 

[lawtonfogle]

I don't get to declare whats evil. God does.

Actually, that free will package you got does include that benefit. Granted, it may not have much weight behind it, but you can go declare evil to your heart's content.