Galatians 3:19

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Adam himself had spiritual eyes and understood more than you and I in regards the things of nature. He kept [since it was given to him to "keep"] the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD his God, since it was "made" for him and all his family.

The sabbath wasn't ever given to Adam.

 

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That is spiritualism. Spirit and no natural substance. It is a 'spirit' with no 'body'. Aethereal nothingness.

Immaterial and intangible yes and amen. nothingness, no way.

 

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I checked ... still beating ... [think about it].

Wrong heart

 

[listed]

And so LGW continues on an on and on and on and on. As he, and everyone else knows, I quoted Gods word, word for word, and when I did so, he responded, time and time again:
You are putting your own words above Gods word


And so he kept on and on bearing false witness against me, without it seems a care in the world.

I will repeat, this is what these people do. Excuse their sin, or seek to justify it all the time. They cannot and do not practice what they preach, they demand of you what they do not demand of themselves. There is no love for others in them, for it is not loving to demand of others what you do not demand of yourself. There is no love in hypocrisy/crushing others with demands you do not even try to attain to in your own life, just the opposite

Exactly They demand forsaking grace for the law in which there's no salvation.

 

[listed]

Forget Augustine. Try and accept the core terms on which the NC stands. The law God desires the believer to follow is in their mind. You in your mind must know what has been placed there. The law is in your heart, therefore you in your heart want to obey it. That is why it got placed there. Now if someone is not under law(of righteousness) but the law is in their heart, it is impossible for them to then believe they have a licence to sin.

Here's an example. Think of the person you love the most in this world. Lets call them x. Because you love them, it is in your heart to want to please them isn't it? You want to make them happy. But though that is what you in your heart want, you never will act perfectly towards them at all times, humans are not like that. What happens when you say an unkind word to someone you in your heart so want to please, what happens when you grieve the person you in your heart want to make happy? Your conscience gets seered, and you will have no rest, and no peace until you go to the person and ask them to forgive you for how you acted towards them, then you get your peace back. Same for the truly born again Christian where God is concerned. No licence to sin under the core terms of the NC.

Lets put it another way. A government official of the country you live in, comes to you, and tells you he has the authority to tell you, if you harm or kill x(the person you love most in this world and in your heart want to please) you will not suffer the consequences the law demands for such actions. You are not under your countries law where this is concerned. How are you going to react to such knowledge? Will you rub your hands with glee and think of how you can now harm, or kill the person you in your heart so want to please? Ridiculous notion is it not?

It seems for many, the core terms on which the NC stands, and the outworking of it, are at best only briefly glanced at, before they walk on by, and in reality, prefer the old wine to the new

Putting new wine in old wine skins will destroy both.

 

[listed]

Just some clarification - Did Luther really tell us to 'love God and sin boldly'?

I don't follow Luther.

 

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As a well known Baptist minister in the UK stated, and I quote:

85% of Evangelicals fail to understand the justification/sanctification process.

Which is, in my experience a pretty accurate figure. Which is remarkable, as they all stress the Holy Spirit in their churches to a high degree. So why such error in understanding fundamentals of the Christian faith?

The reason is they follow some teacher's false understandings and refuse to read and believe the Bible.

 

[listed]

Having been raised in Evangelical churches, I can only give an assessment based on my experience of them. The core membership of the churches I have been to was mainly made up of people who came from secure, loving backgrounds. This results, in them coming from the more affluent, academically gifted half of society. This is not always the case of course, but in the vast majority of cases. They then go to an evangelical church, and are baptised in the Holy Spirit(in the sense istcenturylady and I would agree concerning that experience) The Holy Spirit is the convictor of sin, and therefore, a person baptised in the Holy Spirit will, have a strong recognition of the Holy life they are called to lead. However, it is entirely possible(and happens) a person will then, in their zeal leave core teaching behind as to how sin is to be overcome/the justification/sanctification process and base everything(in reality) on not committing sin. And, if you come from a more loving, secure background, statistically speaking, you are far less likely to have what many consider the 'taboo sins' that will bar you from Heaven. You then become somewhat hardnosed, bringing the law of God down from the pristine level it is set at, to a place you convince yourself you do not commit sin.
But not everyone can do that(praise God) Either their eyes are opened, or they will walk away crushed, as many do. A minister said once, 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith. He reflected on why that number was so high, and concluded, in so many cases it was because, people did not know the truth of the Gospel message.

The contradictory message commonly preached almost cost me my soul. Thank God for deliverance. It still took years to be effectual.

 

[Marco70]

The contradictory message commonly preached almost cost me my soul. Thank God for deliverance. It still took years to be effectual.

It nearly cost me my soul too, as well as countless others. Thank God indeed for his deliverance, I could never have opened my own eyes, I was too entrenched in despair. It's great to see others like you who have been delivered too

 

[klutedavid]

As a well known Baptist minister in the UK stated, and I quote:

85% of Evangelicals fail to understand the justification/sanctification process.

Which is, in my experience a pretty accurate figure. Which is remarkable, as they all stress the Holy Spirit in their churches to a high degree. So why such error in understanding fundamentals of the Christian faith?

It is not straight forward in the scripture and that is why there are so many different interpretations.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Putting new wine in old wine skins will destroy both.

Exactly! This is why trying to put the New Covenant into the Old Covenant isn't even feasible. But that is what the leagalists want us to believe. Thank you for reminding me of that important description. Now I've got to find the address.

 

[Marco70]

It is not straight forward in the scripture and that is why there are so many different interpretations.

It is surprising, who in reality is close to who where interpretation is concerned.
Someone on another website said:
The two denominations that find it hardest to accept biblical grace are catholics and Pentecostals.

When I read that, my initial reaction was amazement, as doctrinally, they are probably supposed to be the two mainstream denominations furthest apart. Indeed, I was raised Pentecostal, and the minister seemed to revel in preaching sermons attacking catholicism.
A few years ago, I was chatting to a catholic online. He was telling me about his Christian walk. How he strove for perfection/to be sinless, every time he failed, he confessed his sins(through a priest) then the process started all over again. As I read what he wrote, I was dumbfounded, he was describing, exactly my walk when I went to the Pentecostal church of my youth(apart from me seeing a priest to confess)

 

[The7thColporteur]

I don't follow Luther.

Who said you did? Not I.

 

[Marco70]

Justification
Instantaneous, based on faith in Christ

Sanctification, goes on for life, you are a work in progress your whole life.

But for many, sanctification sacrifices justification. In many churches, you are given a limited amount of time to reach a certain standard, otherwise you risk the fires of hell. For many, once justified by faith in Christ, your justification immediately changes to
observing the law. Your continued salvation hinges not on a justification/righteousness of faith in Christ, but one of ceasing sin/observing the law. Might sound great for some, but a Christianity based on righteousness of observing the law is not the way to overcome sin, according to Paul. Nor would he approve of it:

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing. Gal2:21

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith Phil3:9

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace Rom 6:14

And here is the great error. As soon as you say continued justification before God hinges on not committing sin/observing the law, you no longer have a righteousness of faith in Christ. It can only be one or the other

 

[The7thColporteur]

Wrong heart

Not at all. I carefully wrote what I did. [Think about it.]

 

[The7thColporteur]

The sabbath wasn't ever given to Adam.

Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

This was previously addressed here - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word and moreso again here - GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

I will cite the primary relevant part, but would ask that you consider, in combination both posts cited previously.

"...So, when God "made" the sabbath, was it "made" for "the man" Adam [and thus all humanity in him]?

I ask, because Jesus said this:

Mark 2:27 KJB - And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Mark 2:27 GNT TR - και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον
​

Literally, '... the sabbath [of the LORD [JEHOVAH], the 7th day, context] was made/created for the man ...'

The only "the [definite article] man" [Hebrew: 'ha adam'] [singular] that was around when things were "made" [thus at Genesis], is "Adam" [and all humanity in him]. This agrees with Genesis 2:7, which speaks of "the Adam":

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 HOT - וייצר יהוה אלהים את־האדם עפר מן־האדמה ויפח באפיו נשׁמת חיים ויהי האדם לנפשׁ חיה׃

Genesis 2:7 HOT Translit. - waYiytzer y'hwäh élohiym et-häädäm äfär min-häádämäh waYiPach B'aPäyw nish'mat chaYiym way'hiy häädäm l'nefesh chaYäh

Genesis 2:7 LXX* (so-called) - καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.
​

Thus, would you agree that the LORD [JEHOVAH] God [Elohiym] "made" "the seventh day" "the sabbath of the LORD [JEHOVAH] thy God [Elohiym]" "for" Adam, "the man", and that God set the example for "the man" the first time by having "rested" in it way back then, and then blessed and hallowed it "for" "the man" - Adam; for God having "made" it "for" "the man" as a holy blessing and delight? ..."
​

And speaking of the Second/Last Adam, "the man" Christ Jesus, "the Jew":

"... Jesus is "the Jew", even "the man"."​

 

[The7thColporteur]

Immaterial and intangible yes and amen. nothingness, no way.

Jesus said:

John 6:63 KJB - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.​

Do [are] words have [formed of] letters, Yes/No?

 

[klutedavid]

I wish to expand on your reply.

The two denominations that find it hardest to accept biblical grace are catholics and Pentecostals.

I would disagree and include every church on earth in that category. Salvation as a free gift given to us in Christ, is utterly contrary to all human thought. Hence, nearly all Christian organizations have layers of works based justification, sown into their teaching. The fact that you can boldly approach the throne of God in Christ, is not something that you would hear too often in sermons. Surely everyone struggles to some degree with that free justification before God, through a simple belief in Jesus Christ? God's free offer is a stumbling block to everyone at times.

When I read that, my initial reaction was amazement, as doctrinally, they are probably supposed to be the two mainstream denominations furthest apart. Indeed, I was raised Pentecostal, and the minister seemed to revel in preaching sermons attacking catholicism.

I have been to many different churches, a number of Pentecostal churches also. Never once have I heard a sermon on the Catholic religion. Most of the churches I attended were as straight as arrows on doctrine. There has been a great improvement in church doctrine over the last century, probably due to improved education. There are an array of solid publications available these days for those interested. The foundation doctrine of Christianity is relatively straight forward to follow. It starts with Christ and ends with Christ, if you have only Christ, then you have it all. If there is anything attached to Christ, then it is back to square one again. The Alpha and the Omega and nothing else.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Putting new wine in old wine skins will destroy both.

Yep. Just agreeing with scripture [KJB].

 

[Marco70]

I wish to expand on your reply.

I would disagree and include every church on earth in that category. Salvation as a free gift given to us in Christ, is utterly contrary to all human thought. Hence, nearly all Christian organizations have layers of works based justification, sown into their teaching. The fact that you can boldly approach the throne of God in Christ, is not something that you would hear too often in sermons. Surely everyone struggles to some degree with that free justification before God, through a simple belief in Jesus Christ? God's free offer is a stumbling block to everyone at times.

I have been to many different churches, a number of Pentecostal churches also. Never once have I heard a sermon on the Catholic religion. Most of the churches I attended were as straight as arrows on doctrine. There has been a great improvement in church doctrine over the last century, probably due to improved education. There are an array of solid publications available these days for those interested. The foundation doctrine of Christianity is relatively straight forward to follow. It starts with Christ and ends with Christ, if you have only Christ, then you have it all. If there is anything attached to Christ, then it is back to square one again. The Alpha and the Omega and nothing else.

Some churches are more fervent than others in preaching, in effect righteousness of observing the law.
A woman, whos husband is a Christian counsellor told me:
Half the sex addicts in the US at one time went to ''Holiness; churches. I c an well believe that, based on what Paul wrote. As I said, I was raised Pentecostal, when I finally read Paul's letters for myself, I was amazed at what I read, for I had never heard it preached in the church of my youth. Many churches stress holy living to a very high degree, but fail alongside that to preach Paul's message of grace. The result, for the sincere can be disasterous. I know of Christian counsellors who spend much time trying to help such people.