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Galatians 2:16

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by HARK!, May 23, 2020 at 11:13 AM.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is it commonly mistranslated?

    Should it read, "apart from observance of the Torah (law), no flesh can be considered righteous?"

    What is righteousness?

    Definition of righteous

    1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
    Definition of RIGHTEOUS

    What is sin?

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:4
    Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

    Seems like a no brainer; but let's take a look at a a more methodical approach.



    Please limit discussion to the content of the video. Comments outside of discussion of the contents of the video will be considered off topic. What this means is that in order to take part in the discussion; you have to watch the video, in order to discuss the video.

    Shabbat shalom.
     
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  2. Scott Husted

    Scott Husted Active Member

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    What is in their is often what you take with you.
     
  3. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    It is written..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)
    Your thesis is counter to what is written.
    It says, in effect, that the law can do none of what you say it can do.
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You obviously didn't watch the video.
     
  5. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    No, sorry, I didn't.
    But if your foundation is off-kilter, what would be the point?
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you had watched the video you wouldn't be asking the question; and you would have to come up with a better argument than my "foundation is off-kilter," in order to maintain any credibility.

    Now I would ask that you read the OP, and remain on topic.
     
  7. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I skipped ahead in the video to see the part about that verse.

    I also took a look at "Vincent's Word Studies" which says:
    "As the Greek stands, it would read, “Is not justified by the works of the law save through faith.” So, unfortunately, Rev. This would mean, as the Romish interpreters, not through works of the law except they be done through faith in Christ, and would ascribe justification to works which grow out of faith. Paul means that justification is by faith alone. The use of ἐὰν μὴ is to be thus explained: A man is not justified by the works of the law: (he is not justified) except by faith in Jesus Christ. Ἑὰν μὴ retains its exceptive force, but the exception refers only to the verb".

    That is not saying what the gentleman in the video is saying, so it is definitely open to interpretation.

    But, that verse is speaking about the Jews in particular. So what about gentiles? The gentleman says God gives Torah to the world and expects Israel to take it to the world. What would the Jews say about that if we were to ask them?


    Another point is shouldn't we compare what else is written about being justified by the law, or not, to get a clearer picture? Here, for example:
    Rom 3:19-22 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    People can make a whole lot of doctrines by taking one verse out of context.
     
  8. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Regarding what you wrote:

    "Is it commonly mistranslated?
    Should it read, "apart from observance of the Torah (law), no flesh can be considered righteous?"
    What is righteousness?
    Definition of righteous
    1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
    Definition of RIGHTEOUS"

    The word is not "righteous" but "justified" and just taking a quick look online, it might be worth a study of what the greek word actually means.

     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your source is obviously clueless as to what Paul means.

    The words "faith" and "alone" appear together only once in scripture. It wasn't Paul; but it was James who used those words together. Ironically that verse contradicts your source; and it is in harmony with my source, and Yahshua.

    James 2:17
    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "The" Jews? That's quite "the" generalization.

    It doesn't matter what Jews (who might not even be following the Torah) have to say about it; unless what they say agrees with YHWH's TaNaK.

    BTW, even if my source isn't Jewish (I believe that he is); he's sitting in a room full of Jews who take time on Shabbat, to come and listen to his words.

    I suppose this group would say what the speaker said, if you asked them.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 3:50 PM
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I like to let this verse really sink in:

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth (Which mouths? The Jews mouths? The Pagans Mouths? Israel's mouths? EVERY MOUTH!) may be stopped, and all the world (Who becomes guilty? The unsaved. The Jews? The Pagans? Jim Baker? Not the Pope? ALL THE WORLD! ) may become guilty before God
     
  12. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I was just pointing out there was yet another interpretation. I thought it would be interesting to discuss.

    My source "Vincent's Word Studies" -
    "The Word Studies in the New Testament by Marvin R. Vincent (1834-1922) was first published in 1887 in four volumes. Since that time, the more than 2600 pages of this classic work have helped the English reader better understand the Bible in its original Greek language. Now the full richness of the original meaning, history, derivation, grammar, and usage of important New Testament words is accessible to the average English reader.
    Vincent's Word Studies falls half-way between an exegetical commentary and a Greek lexicon. It is actually a study, in commentary form, of the vocabulary of the New Testament. This format gives Vincent the opportunity to not only discuss the subtle distinctions in meaning between different Greek words, but also to comment on the history contained in a word that might get lost in a translation. He reveals the characteristics in writing style and word usage of a particular Bible writer, pointing out the marvelous interplay of the different Greek tenses and the nicely-calculated force of the Greek article. Vincent explains in detail the proper usage and meaning of Greek idioms and the connection between different English words that are translated from the same Greek word. These fine points often cannot be brought out in a translation, but in the pages of Vincent's Word Studies, all of these language barriers are removed."

    Overview - Vincent's Word Studies
     
  13. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Paul was talking about the Jews in that verse and not gentiles.
    Gal 2:15-16 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, (16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I suppose those who follow the speaker in the video would agree with what he said. But not all Jews would.
     
  14. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    So are you righteous? Or are you also part of ALL THE WORLD!
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Paul is talking not about Jews. If he was talking about Jews; he would have said Jews. Paul was a lawyer. He had a strong command of the language.We can infer that he said what he meant.

    He made a comparison between those who are Jews (Yahudim?) by nature, and those who are sinners of the nations.
     
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm wondering why you are attempting to shift this discussion to a personal level.

    Are you attempting to remove a speck from my eye; or perhaps if I have sinned; that can somehow be used as justification to sin?

    (CLV) 1Jn 1:8
    If we should be saying that we have not sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
     
  17. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Fair point about Jews by nature. That could've made an interesting discussion about what he meant.
     
  18. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    You asked a question in your first post:
    "Is it commonly mistranslated?
    Should it read, "apart from observance of the Torah (law), no flesh can be considered righteous?""

    So considering what is written in Paul's letters for example, are you, or is anyone else "righteous" because they observe Torah? Or is there more? Like faith?

    I thought this might be an interestng topic, but you were the one who posted:

    "I like to let this verse really sink in:

    Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth (Which mouths? The Jews mouths? The Pagans Mouths? Israel's mouths? EVERY MOUTH!) may be stopped, and all the world (Who becomes guilty? The unsaved. The Jews? The Pagans? Jim Baker? Not the Pope? ALL THE WORLD! ) may become guilty before God"

    All those enlarged letters are, to me, the equivalent of yelling. So enjoy the rest of your Shabbat and I hope others come to partake of your thread.
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of course there is more to it.

    (CLV) Gn 15:6
    Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

    (CLV) Gn 26:5
    inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

    (CLV) Ja 2:22
    You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

    (CLV) Ja 2:23
    And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

    (CLV) Ja 2:24
    You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those words which are enlarged, are emphasized to a lesser degree than I like to let them sink in. This is one of my favorite verses, that YHWH uses to keep me straight; when people attempt to trick me out of keeping the Torah. Whenever I start to believe them; there are a few sobering verses that I can look to; so that I ask myself, "what in the world was I thinking?"
     
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