Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[BobRyan]

D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandment sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the en[FONT=&quot]ding concluding segment - that might help shed even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this

 

[BABerean2]

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

You might notice that the same writer "John" defines those commandments for us, but you try to ignore what he said.

You are using the old "bait-and-switch" strategy again...

1Jn 3:22　 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.　
1Jn 3:23　 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.　
1Jn 3:24　 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


.　

 

[BobRyan]

in the actual Bible we find this

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - those who follow Jesus -- know what He said as an answer.

 

[BABerean2]

in the actual Bible we find this

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - those who follow Jesus -- know what He said as an answer.

And the most important is the Sabbath...

Col 2:16　 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:　
Col 2:17　 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.　


Which is Christ.

.

 

[BobRyan]

in the actual Bible we find this

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - those who follow Jesus -- know what He said as an answer.

And the most important is the Sabbath...

Why do you say that? Is it because "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth?

Why wouldn't you pick "Do not take God's name in vain" ?? why do you not want that one as well?

How about "Love the Lord our God with your heart" - Deut 6:5 - the GREATEST commandment - also not there -- surely you would want to add that one.

No wait -- you want to talk about the ceremonial - annual feasts - the shadow Sabbaths ... hmm wonder why.

 

[BABerean2]

Sabbaths ... hmm wonder why.

Why? Because the Sabbath is the "sign" (Exodus 31:13) between God and the children of Israel of the "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai covenant of "bondage" (Galatians 4:24) put in place "until" (Galatians 3:19) the seed (Galatians 3:16) could come to whom the Abrahamic promise was made.


The Levitical priesthood was also said to last forever.
Apparently, that "forever" was conditional on the children of Israel obeying the covenant.

However, we are now under another High Priest and another law.

Heb 7:12　 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


The Judaisers continue to hold onto the Sinai covenant and its weekly "sign", which they have made more important than Christ.

　

.

 

[Bob S]

Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Please define God's commandments Bob. I don't ever remember you telling us what those commandments are although we have asked you many times. The Rabies tell us the law contained 613 laws. Some pertained to special things that didn't concern the laity. Which ones should I observe.

is Jesus God? Are we to keep the commands that Jesus kept or the ones Jesus asks us to keep?. Before you answer please note that Jesus kept, I believe, eight different feasts.

 

[BobRyan]

Please define God's commandments Bob.

See the "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" Thread --

page 1.

I don't ever remember you telling us what those commandments are although we have asked you many times.

Ok so for those not familiar with that 103 page thread --- particularly with page 1 --

seems like everyone these days wants to ask "Which Commandments" --

Already answered on page #1 of this thread

======================================== like this

The TEN commandments are included in "THE LAW" the Moral Law of God that defines sin.

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

Ten Commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai - Ex 20. Heb 8:6-10

Ten Commandments quoted in NT when giving examples of the LAW.

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is THE Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through THE Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless THE law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Ten Commandments -- "The Word of God" -- "The Commandment of God" - "Moses Said"

Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said" -

Rom 2
21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?
22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

===================

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　

Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—


Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　

Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

.

Nice snips of Gal 4 - but I prefer the more full quote of Gal 4 that we see in "page 1".


The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.


================================
Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1


Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks again to those who bring up Galatians 4 as a topic -- even if they only isolate just 2 verses from it. It reminds us all of the OP here.

The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.


================================
Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1


Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

 

[BABerean2]

The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

Show where Paul used the term "the moral law" or "the ceremonial law".

It looks like you will have to go back to your "pro-Sunday scholars" for this one, since Paul used the word "covenants" in Galatians chapter 4.

You are trying the old "bait-and-switch routine", once again.

.

 

[BobRyan]

I prefer the more full quote of Gal 4 that we see in "page 1".


The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.


================================
Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1


Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

=========================

So then -- ignoring almost all of the Bible listed we have

Show where Paul used the term "the moral law" or "the ceremonial law".

It looks like you will have to go back to your "pro-Sunday scholars"

.

Hint
-- 1Cor 7:19 where moral vs ceremonial law are contrasted by Paul
-- Ephesians 6:2 where the TEN commandments as a unit are affirmed by Paul
-- Romans 3:19-20, Romans 7 where Paul demands that the OT - Ten Commandments - LAW of God defines sin

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?

The Bible-Sabbath denying model of 'ignore the bible when it does not fit your war against God's Commandments" -- is not to be taken seriously by Bible-believing Christians and we all know it.

Hint even your own pro-Sunday scholars know it.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1

Please define God's commandments Bob. .

Did you forget already what you were told about Ephesians 6:2? A few dozen times by now?

Do we need to remind you again?

That text irrefutably shows that the TEN Commandments are included in the "Commandments of God" just as Mark 7:6-13 does. (As you were shown a few dozen times by now).

 

[BABerean2]

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Bob, you forgot to Highlight and or Bold part of the text above.


Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　

In the verse above Paul compares the Sinai Covenant (not your invented "moral law") to Hagar the bondwoman. He also compared the Sinai Covenant to a "ministry of death, written on stones" in 2 Corinthians 3:7. That would be the 10 commandments which were written on stone, Bob.

Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Paul repeats the same idea in the verse above.　



Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　

In the verse above Paul is telling the Galatian believers to "cast out" the bondwoman, which is an allegory to the Sinai Covenant (Not the "moral law", which is a manmade term).


Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

Our inheritance does not come through the Sinai Covenant.

Nice try at the old "bait-and-switch", Bob.

How are you going to change "the ministry of death, written on stones" into "the ceremonial law" ?


.

 

[BobRyan]

I prefer the more full quote of Gal 4 that we see in "page 1".


The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.


================================
Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1


Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Notice that what He does not say in the NEW Covenant is "I will give you DIFFERENT Commandments - ones that do not contain such things as "do not take God's name in vain" -- as I am sure we all agree.
=========================

So then -- ignoring almost all of the Bible listed we have

Show where Paul used the term "the moral law" or "the ceremonial law".

It looks like you will have to go back to your "pro-Sunday scholars"

.

-- 1Cor 7:19 where moral vs ceremonial law are contrasted by Paul
-- Ephesians 6:2 where the TEN commandments as a unit are affirmed by Paul
-- Romans 3:19-20, Romans 7 where Paul demands that the OT - Ten Commandments - LAW of God defines sin

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?

The Bible-Sabbath denying model of 'ignore the bible when it does not fit your war against God's Commandments" -- is not to be taken seriously by Bible-believing Christians and we all know it.

even the pro-Sunday scholars know it.

Bob, you forgot to Highlight and or Bold part of the text above.


Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　

In the verse above Paul compares the Sinai Covenant (not your invented "moral law")

1. It's your own pro-sunday scholars that admit to the Bible detail of the moral law of God - the Law that defines what sin is as the Bible says in 1 John 3:4, Romans 2:19-20 and Romans 7.

It is Christ that gave us the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant saying that the same Law known to Jeremiah is written on heart and mind.

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?




Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Notice that what He does not say in the NEW Covenant is "I will give you DIFFERENT Commandments - ones that do not contain such things as "do not take God's name in vain" -- as I am sure we all agree.

 

[bugkiller]

D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

This Sabbath Commandment section of Moody's Ten Commandment sermon goes quot]on with more detail. Here is a segment of that same section -- the en[FONT=&quot]ding concluding segment - that might help shed even more light on Moody's Intent - #229 post is on this

The following are from the same sites Bob quotes from:

There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. DL Moody

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead. Charles Stanley

Instead, the first day of the week is set aside for Christian worship. There is no specific change in day mentioned in the New Testament, but the change was good and proper. Under the old covenant, the Sabbath celebrated God’s work of creation. We celebrate God’s creation under the new covenant as well, only now the focus is on the new creation in Christ (Gal. 6:15), which was established in His resurrection on the first day of the week. RC Sproul

One should read Weighed and Wanting by D L Moody to see what he is calling the sabbath starting at page 18. It can be found here - Weighed and Wanting by Dwight L. Moody - Free eBook

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site. Please read the whole section. We find this in the section for the 4th commandment -

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

D L Moody is not presenting Saturday as the sabbath for the Christian. He clearly calls Sunday the sabbath. He does go on and try and apply at least some sabbath regulations to Sunday as principles to live by. The point is D L Moody is not referring to the 7th day sabbath.

These can also be found in the formal debate Bob and I had a few years ago. I can be found starting here with Mark's intro to the debate here -

Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

in the actual Bible we find this

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - those who follow Jesus -- know what He said as an answer.

Once again you ignored I Jn 3:23.
And yes Jesus was indeed asked which commandments grant eternal life. In the law there are none. Read Deut 28. Even the OT affirms there are none who keep the law and Isaiah gives a lament in 63:17 about that fact. The asker was trying o trip Jesus up. It was not a sincere question for understanding. One should note the asker left sorrowfully even after Jesus basically agreed with him and did not condemn him. But then we have Jesus saying things like who believes with no mention of the law in Jn 3:16 and 5:24.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

in the actual Bible we find this

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,
“You shall not commit adultery,”
“You shall not murder,”
“You shall not steal,”
“You shall not bear false witness,”
“You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Lev 19:18 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Which John affirms in 1 John 5:3-4 - LOVE is demonstrated by "Keeping God's Commandments".

Jesus was asked "which ones" in Matt 19 - those who follow Jesus -- know what He said as an answer.



Why do you say that? Is it because "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth?

Why wouldn't you pick "Do not take God's name in vain" ?? why do you not want that one as well?

How about "Love the Lord our God with your heart" - Deut 6:5 - the GREATEST commandment - also not there -- surely you would want to add that one.

No wait -- you want to talk about the ceremonial - annual feasts - the shadow Sabbaths ... hmm wonder why.

Why is the new covenant rebuffed?

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

It is Christ that gave us the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant saying that the same Law known to Jeremiah is written on heart and mind.

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?

Bob,

Based on the logic above...

Christ commanded Noah to build a boat, gather you up some Gopher-wood and get busy.

Christ commanded Abraham to circumcise all of his male offspring, so find a sharp knife and start chasing down the males in your family.

Christ commanded Abraham to leave his home and go to Canaan, so find yourself a good real-estate agent and buy a plane ticket.


And while you are at it cut Galatians chapter 3 out of your Bible, which makes it clear that the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

You probably want to cut out Hebrews 12:18-24 also, because it clearly shows the contrast between the two covenants.

.

 

[bugkiller]

Nice snips of Gal 4 - but I prefer the more full quote of Gal 4 that we see in "page 1".


The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

So who here is not accepting this passage? The pro law people or the pro grace people? Is Deuteronomy part of the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

That is correct. Is the law the Gospel? NOPE!!!!!!!!

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.

What are you trying to say here with John 3?

================================
Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

The pro grace people do not seek righteousness by the law (self righteousness by which no one can be saved).

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

A half truth is a full lie. But then again one must be subject to the law in order to transgress it. The Christian is not subject to the law because of the new covenant.

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Condemnation of the law does not exist without being subject to the law. Paul shows very clearly righteousness is only found outside the law with examples - ch 4.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

Sin existed without the law in 5:13.

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

What things? requiring the law be kept? hardly!!!!

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

What affirmation? I did not find one.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Why does Paul tell us to throw (cast) it out?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

For the sake of this section of the forum yes. It is really difficult to believe you would say such a thing.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

Circumcision is not ceremonial.

I need to ask you what the commandments are more important than? The blood of Jesus for instance.

<snip>

John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"

What commandments do you say?

"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

Different Speakers, so even tho the words are the same they have very different meanings.

<snip>

Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Better covenant based on promises opposed to law.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Yeppers!!!!!

bugkiller