Gal 4 condemns all Pagan days Rom 14 defends all Bible holy days

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, I can see how he is interpreting those days as being pagan. But even if he is right, the whole book has to do with ANY outward observance, whether pagan, or the Mosaic law which was to keep us under guard UNTIL Christ.

The point Paul makes throughout Galatians, as I know you agree, is that the Galatians were being back into the bondage of the Law which Christ had freed them from.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The point Paul makes throughout Galatians, as I know you agree, is that the Galatians were being back into the bondage of the Law which Christ had freed them from.

Yes, I agree. That is the major subject and context of Galatians.

 

[BobRyan]

The church of the Galatians is a gentile church. Obviously.
The gentiles were formerly pagans... obviously


7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

-- Pagans did not know God.. Matthew 17 says Moses and Elijah did know God

(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

--- returning "again" to pagan practices they had been practicing.

ROFL Those were not pagan days, .

wild speculation alone does not suffice to undo the Bible details from "page 1" of this thread that come from Gal 4. Details matter.

If, as Mr. Ryan asserts, the problem with the Galatians was that they were turning back to the moralistic and legalistic law of the pagans, rather that the Law of the Old Testament, he is greatly mistaken because heathens are just the opposite - immoral without law. His argument is false.

until you read the actual text of Gal 4 regarding the formerly pagan - gentile Christians in Galatia and their "turning back again" to those pagan practices.

Exactly. How Mr. Ryan and the SDA manage to contort the clear teaching of Galatians into a defence of Law-keeping is a great mystery to me.

hint: even the pro-Sunday groups admit that all TEN of the TEN Commandments apply to all mankind - even Christians and are included in the moral law of God.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Read the Bible details instead of ignoring Gal 4:7-9 -- allow yourself to see the details posted in the thread and then respond to them as we would do on any other thread.

 

[BobRyan]

The point Paul makes throughout Galatians, as I know you agree, is that the Galatians were being back into the bondage of the Law which Christ had freed them from.

It would be a sin to "take God's name in vain" even for Christians which is why Paul reminds us that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of TEN - and of course he adds "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The solution "don't look at those details in Galatians 4:7-9" is not the all-encompassing compelling solution that some have imagined.

The church of the Galatians is a gentile church. Obviously.
The gentiles were formerly pagans... obviously


7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

-- Pagans did not know God.. Matthew 17 says Moses and Elijah did know God

(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

--- returning "again" to pagan practices they had been practicing.

 

[BobRyan]

I pointed out to you the context of Galatians 4, and you still are cutting and pasting the same error.

You never allowed yourself to "look" at the Gal 4:7-9 details that so refute your claims in that regard.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You never allowed yourself to "look" at the Gal 4:7-9 details that so refute your claims in that regard.

How do you know? Do you think I left the SDA church in 1970 and went blindly on my way, never confirming over and over every detail for years? My desire is to believe God's own interpretation of His Word, and that is why I do not belong to any denomination who tries to tell me what to think. When I was filled with the Holy Spirit, my understanding exploded. When it comes to the Word, I do fight for carnal beliefs of my own will, but want only God's interpretation and meaning. But many are like two men Lord Byron encountered.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

It is important to know and respect the author, especially when the author is God. Every denomination has started with an argument over interpretation and private theories of man, when if you lack wisdom, God will reveal His true meaning of His Word through His Spirit, the Spirit of Truth.

 

[Dkh587]

You never allowed yourself to "look" at the Gal 4:7-9 details that so refute your claims in that regard.

Traditions of men are hard for some people to break away from.

The way people are acting, you would think it’s rocket science: you can’t “go back” to celebrating God’s holy days if you were formerly a pagan celebrating pagan holidays. Pagans don’t celebrate God’s holy days.

You can’t “go back” to doing something you weren’t doing in the first place.

People would rather hold on to their manmade traditions and let traditions form their doctrine, rather than the Scripture itself being the foundation for their doctrine.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Traditions of men are hard for some people to break away from.

The way people are acting, you would think it’s rocket science: you can’t “go back” to celebrating God’s holy days if you were formerly a pagan celebrating pagan holidays. Pagans don’t celebrate God’s holy days.

You can’t “go back” to doing something you weren’t doing in the first place.

People would rather hold on to their manmade traditions and let traditions form their doctrine, rather than the Scripture itself being the foundation for their doctrine.

What they were "going back" to is now that they started in the Spirit, to be coerced by Judaizers to go back to the Old Testament ways. That is the context of the whole epistle.

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

No outward days, whether in the law or from paganism are of any effect; only that of the Spirit will save you. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is what Paul also calls the ministry of death, engraved on stones.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[BobRyan]

so far in this thread you do no "allow yourself" to see the Gal 4:7-9 "details" that "page one" starts off with as something to inform one's understanding on the days/months in Gal 4.

How do you know? Do you think I left the SDA church in 1970 and went blindly on my way, never confirming over and over every detail for years?

The "I am no longer SDA" response has nothing to do with looking at the Gal 4:7-9 details on page one of this thread.

the pro-sunday non-SDA groups I listed affirm the same point that the bible is not evil in Gal 4- rather paganism is

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[1stcenturylady]

so far in this thread you do no "allow yourself" to see the Gal 4:7-9 "details" that "page one" starts off with as something to inform one's understanding on the days/months in Gal 4.



the pro-sunday non-SDA groups I listed affirm the same point that the bible is not evil - rather paganism is

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

What? Who is saying the Bible is evil, and is being refuted by this group of men?

 

[BobRyan]

What they were "going back" to is now that they started in the Spirit, to be coerced by Judaizers to go back to the Old Testament ways.

gentiles used to be "pagans" they did not "used to be Jews". details matter.

 

[1stcenturylady]

gentiles used to be "pagans" they did not "used to be Jews". details matter.

But Paul is not saying JUST pagan days, if you are correct in assuming that, but ALL outward days. That is the context of the whole book.

Paul had taught them the ways of the Spirit, and they were being taught by those of the circumcision that they must be circumcised in the flesh, and keep all the Mosaic laws.

 

[BobRyan]

So then the Gal 4:7-9 "details" that "page one" starts off with as something to inform one's understanding on the days/months in Gal 4 -- tell us that the gentiles that had turned from paganism to Christianity were tempted to "return" to certain pagan practices.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen .

??

Please join the discussion of this thread - or pick another topic of your choice.

 

[BobRyan]

But Paul is not saying JUST pagan days, if you are correct in assuming that, but ALL outward days. .

1. There is no "all outward days" statement in all of scripture much less in Gal 4. Creative writing is not the solution.

2. Romans 14 already fenced off all the Bible approved holy days of Lev 23 - condemning anyone that would dare to condemn a Christian for keeping any one of them.

3. Gal 4 is only condemning the observance of pagan holy days - and thus avoids conflicting with Romans 14.

This is irrefutable.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1. There is no "all outward days" statement in all of scripture much less in Gal 4. Creative writing is not the solution.

2. Romans 14 already fenced off all the Bible approved holy days of Lev 23 - condemning anyone that would dare to condemn a Christian for keeping any one of them.

3. Gal 4 is only condemning the observance of pagan holy days - and thus avoids conflicting with Romans 14.

This is irrefutable.

Romans 14 is showing the contrast between the weak in the faith and those stronger in the faith. The weak only eat vegetables, the strong eats everything according to 1 Timothy 4:4; the weak observe days, the strong know that everyday is alike and trust Jesus everyday. We are not to judge the weak, and the weak are not to judge those who are stronger.

 

[BobRyan]

But Paul is not saying JUST pagan days, if you are correct in assuming that, but ALL outward days. .

1. There is no "all outward days" statement in all of scripture much less in Gal 4. Creative writing is not the solution.

2. Romans 14 already fenced off all the Bible approved holy days of Lev 23 - condemning anyone that would dare to condemn a Christian for keeping any one of them.

3. Gal 4 is only condemning the observance of pagan holy days - and thus avoids conflicting with Romans 14.

This is irrefutable.

Romans 14 is showing the contrast between the weak in the faith and those stronger in the faith. The weak only eat vegetables, the strong eats everything according

The "weak" are the gentile christians according to 1 Cor 8 who eat vegetables only because they fear food that has been offered to idols. the "strong" are the Jews who knew all along that there is only one God and that the pagan gods are no gods at all. The Jews had a religion that "required" meat eating as part of their service of worship to the one true God.

According to Paul in 1 Cor 8
Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

====================================

So in the case of eating vegetables only - it was the JEWS that were strong and the gentiles that were weak.

In the case of Rom 14 "observing one day above another while another man observes every day" the one who is strong vs weak is not mentioned. Neither is said to be strong or weak.

But the observance is of bible-approved Holy days in Lev 23 the annual Sabbaths - one man observes them all, one observes one above the others and neither is to be condemned according to Paul. Whereas in Gal 4:7-9 te observance of even ONE pagan day is flat out condemned.

 

[BobRyan]

What they were "going back" to is now that they started in the Spirit, to be coerced by Judaizers to go back to the Old Testament ways.

gentiles used to be "pagans" they did not "used to be Jews". details matter.

But Paul is not saying JUST pagan days, if you are correct in assuming that, but ALL outward days.

Nothing of the kind stated in Galatians 4 - and we both know it. "All outward days" is your own creative writing and you would need to "quote you" for the source.

the weak observe days, the strong know that everyday is alike .

Nothing of the kind stated in Romans 14 - and we both know it. Neither of the observance of one day above another or the observance of every day in Lev 23 is to be condemned according to Paul in Rom 14.

Whereas the observance of even one pagan day is flat out condemned in Gal 4:7-9

 

[BobRyan]

For those who thought that Romans 14 might not get mentioned on this board bazillions of times -- here is merely the latest example of it being referenced.

Romans 14:5-6 KJV One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Thank you for posting that...At this point I should point out that the texts you just quoted are already quoted and also referenced on this forum by one or two other members of the board about a bazillion times to raise the question of whether Romans 14 mentions the 7th day Sabbath (which it does not)


(posted so many bazillions of times that there are actually several threads here devoted to that very point).

In any case thanks for posting those texts "again".

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14 is showing the contrast between the weak in the faith and those stronger in the faith.

The weak are gentiles who eat vegetables only according to Rom 3 because they are "accustomed to the idol" and so after becoming Christian they fear eating meat that may have been offered to idols. Jews on they other hand were "required to eat meat" in their worship at times like Passover. They did not have the vegetarian option

"One man observes one day above another - another man observes every day" - which is limited to the Bible approved holy days of Lev 23 and does not include observance of pagan days as Gal 4 points out.

 

[HARK!]

Yep! Anyone Christian that reverts to 1st covenant Judaism or Mosaic Law is under the curse and might as well return to Paganism.

Mosaic law is YHWH's law. It the law that Yahshua called us to follow him in, during his entire ministry, unto death.