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Gal 2 - Do Jews still need the Law?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by ShaulHaTarsi, Aug 7, 2016.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I am in complete agreement that we are under the New Covenant and that the Old Covenant is obsolete, and I have never suggested otherwise, so the issue is about what we are to do as part of the New Covenant. For example, it 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are instructed to have a holy conduct not because we are under the Old Covenant, but because God is holy, which is a reference to Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45. So having a holy conduct is not about identifying with a particular covenant, but about identifying with God's holiness, and as such, anyone who wants find out how to identify with God's holiness can do so by reading God's revealed instructions for that in the Mosaic law regardless of what covenant they are under, if any. Similarly, we are told to train or practice in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16), and the way to find out how to have a righteous conduct and identify with God's righteousness is by reading God's instructions for that in the Mosaic law.

    The Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). God's law is the way (Jeremiah 6:16-19), the truth, and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life, (John 14:16), the law is God's word, and Messiah is God's word made flesh. The Spirit will not lead us in disobedience to God's commands, so if we are led by the Spirit, then we will live in obedience to them. Sin is the transgression of God's law and it is sin in disobedience to the law that puts us in bondage, so it can't also be obedience to the law that puts us in bondage. The Bible does not say that Messiah gave himself to redeem us from the law, but to redeem us from lawlessness (Titus 2:14).

    The law was given to reveal to us what sin is (Romans 7:7) and to give us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), so if you have read the law, then you have knowledge of the things that God considers to be sin and it is up to you to choose whether to live according to the law or to live in transgression of it.

    I am in agreement that those are two of the reasons why the law was given, but I think there are more reasons than that. For example, while it is true that law was give to reveal to us what actions are sinful or harmful to us, it was also given to reveal what actions are holy, righteous, and good or helpful to us. If you grant that the law was given as an expression of God's nature, then why do you not think that we should live accordingly? Do you think that the Spirit will lead us to do things that are not in line with God's revealed nature? Why should we follow Israel's example of disobedience to the law instead of learning from it?

    Two people can do the same righteous action, such as helping the poor, with the action of one being like filthy rags because they gave glory to themselves, but with the action of the other being like fine white linen because they gave glory to God (Revelation 19:8). So the difference is the particular action itself, but in the motivation for doing. God's law has never been about what we are owed or receive in return for our obedience, but about living by faith in God to lead us into doing what is holy, righteous, and good and to lead us away from sin, and about demonstrating our love to God (John 14:15).

    What good is it for God to grant us complete righteousness if it doesn't lead us to do what He has revealed to be righteous? It is not that our righteous actions add to God's righteousness, but that our righteous actions are flowing from His righteousness. We are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    Our salvation is from sin, and sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation from lawlessness for the purpose of coming into obedience to the law. Our salvation necessarily involves both being redeemed from the penalty of our lawlessness and being trained to stop transgressing the law. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith. Strong's defines grace as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and God's will being reflected in our lives takes the form of obedience to His commands. Everything that grace brings in Titus 2:11-14 is a description of what our salvation looks like, so grace does not exempt us from obeying God's law, but rather it is what trains or teaches us to obey it.

    Indeed, God is inscribing the Mosaic law on my mind. The problem with the Old Covenant was not with God's law, but with the hardness of the hearts of His people leading them to disobey it, so God is fixing this problem by making a New Covenant where he will take away our hearts of stone, give us new hearts of flesh, and give us His Spirit to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    How do you know which things are the sins that no one who lives in him keeps doing if not for God's law revealing them to us (Romans 7:7)? Furthermore, just couple verses earlier in 1 John 3:4, it defines sin as lawlessness.

    In other words, do not use your freedom to indulge in what God has revealed to be sin in the Mosaic law, but rather obey its instructions for how to serve one another in love. The Mosaic law is the law of love because if it can be summed up as instructions for how to love God and how to love our neighbor. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments are ways to love God and the last six are ways to love our neighbor. All of the 613 commands in the OT and the 1,050 commands in the NT can likewise be put into either of those categories, so they are all examples of how to obey the greatest two commands.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  2. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't disagree with much of what you said. By the way, most of what I am writing in these posts is not for everyone, but specifically for you. I could very well have written most of what you did for someone else (since in general we need to be obedient because our hearts are hard rather than just receiving the Truth by faith and being transformed by the power of God through that faith).

    The difference I am trying to get at (indirectly, because that's all I can do) is between you making an effort to be obedient to God and the obedience that results from Christ in you (aka, living by grace, aka living by the Spirit). The difference is not in our actions, but is spiritual, or, if you will, our heart condition. Our efforts to be obedient can be valuable training wheels (the "imitation of Christ") but it is because it moves God's heart to cause a transformation into a person that lives by grace apart from all rules. (Off topic: living in a way that continuously moves God's heart is one form of "praying continually"—from 1 Thess. 5:17)

    This new person, as John puts it, "does not sin" because the person's heart and Jesus' heart have really become one, and actions come from our hearts. The more a person is in this state, the more the Law is not rules to follow, but a description of who God is (and as a result provides some knowledge of what pleases him [in actuality he desires "mercy" not "sacrifice"]). "We are not under Law, but grace." The actions themselves are still filthy rags, if we are doing them rather than Jesus through us (the acceptance of which helps our very appropriately needed humility to God).

    A detector for whether it is Jesus or us is that we are doing what is righteous because of love in our hearts for God and others. As we grow more this way, the less obedience is an effort, but rather a natural action. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 is a description of the difference between actions through human effort and actions as one who has been transformed so Jesus is living through them. (We should try to imitate it, though.)

    You seem to be reading disobedience into some things I wrote, but I never did. I am attempting to describe the difference of the joyful obedience that comes no longer just being ourselves, but being a new being that is a unity of who we are at the core and Jesus. We live by grace with joy, rather than through human effort (e.g., obeying rules).

    We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; ... (1 John 5:18a, 1984 NIV)

    When reading this with an old man perspective, this passage doesn't make sense. We think we are born of God (born again), but still end up sinning sometimes. However, this is a reference to those who are experiencing Jesus' life (or rather, the life of the new being created by joining us with Jesus). Jesus does not sin, therefore this new being (the new man) does not sin. (Off topic: understanding this makes 1 Cor. 12:3 easier to understand.)

    Experiencing Jesus' life (and not our own physical realm "old man" life) is, in a practical sense, what happens as we are sanctified more and more. As such, it is right to say it is more and more living by faith. Faith is the substance of our connection to God. More faith means more of God living through us. God grants us more faith through us abiding in Christ. Our job is to hold onto the faith God has given us, the primary methods of which are acting according to believing/trusting Him and what He said.
     
  3. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

    Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
    Acts 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
    Acts 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
    Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    Acts 28:7 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

    Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
     
  4. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
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    Why do you think Peter is referring to Lev 11:44-45? Is it because the words are similar? or is it because you want and desire others to be under the law?

    I Jn 3:10 is a great reference as to what the Christian is to do. I ask you if one practices that verse how can they be guilty of sin?

    And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. LK 6:31 Is this not the same love I Jn 3:10 talks about?

    A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. JN 13:34 How can one do this and be sinning? Why does one need the law to love?

    What is at issue is obedience to the law (specifically the 4th which no one observes) which has been replaced according to God's promise given through Jeremiah and testified in 3 Gospels by Jesus to be in effect.
    If the job of the Holy Spirit is to lead us back to the law, why is He necessary when we have the law? Gal 5:18 says - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Your John 16 reference says leas us to things to come, not thing that already are or were. So the verse can not be about the law.

    No on your combo of Jer 6 and Deut 30 when Jesus says - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. JN 14:6. Notice getting to the Father has nothing to do with the law.

    The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone back to the law as I quoted above.

    Sin is more than transgression of the law. Read I JN 3:4 and notice the word "also." Besides sin was before the law (Rom 5:13) and the reason it was added (Gal 3:19).

    Your argument is off base. If we're redeemed from sin and sin is only transgression of the law and we're only under the law when we sin, how can we not also be redeemed from the law? Is your position we lose our redemption for occasional sin, or when one practices sin as a lifestyle?
    IOW you need something to tell you not to murder when your instruction is - And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. Why? Do you want someone to murder you? Again isn't the issue the 4th commandment and not murdering your neighbor? I do find it difficult to do evil to my nasty neighbor even though I'm often tempted.
    I'm sorry but I just don't understand why you seem to wish evil upon yourself. Of course I'm referencing my above quote from LK 6.

    We do follow Israel's example because we can't help ourselves. For instance no one is compliant with the 4th commandment which Israel was severely punished for. (Isa 63:17) Why do you think you can do better when the Bible says no?
    Isn't this the way Rev 14:12 is used? It sure sounds like gloating to me.

    Why do pro law people reference and quote JN 14:15 and ignore JN 15:10? You and John are talking about different sets of commandments.
    We are not saved to keep the law. We are saved (born again) to have a relationship with God which the law does not and can not provide.
    If there is no sin there is no violation. Our salvation/redemption is from sin as you said. That means sin is cancelled (no existing violations). But then you suggest we can have salvation and still be lawless. Isn't that counter productive to your argument? Why do you not understand salvation changes the heart, thus our actions? You have us changing our actions to have a clean heart. It just doesn't work that way.
    Good for you. God must not love me because He (Holy Spirit) spoke to me personally and informed me that wasn't my covenant. That lines up with the Bible. It still took me years to put that together. I will never forget the moment the Holy Spirit spoke to me.
    Practicing love as I quoted above.
    Yep don't do evil to your neighbor unless you want them to do evil to you.

    bugkiller
     
  5. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
    Non-Denom
    No Christian is obligated to the law.

    bugkiller
     
  6. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
    Non-Denom
    It is when turned up side down. Details matter.

    bugkiller
     
  7. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

    626
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    Psalms 19:7-10 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
    The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
    Psalms 111:7-8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
    Psalms 119:44-45 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
    Psalms 119:89-90 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
    Psalms 119:142-144 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights. The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
    Psalms 119:151-152 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
    Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
     
  8. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    No the issue is the 4th commandment.

    bugkiller
     
  9. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

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    Yes I've read testimonies of formers. I've also been condemned because I do not keep the law, err the amended law. I've been told that I'm not doing all I know to do. That's works oriented salvation and brings only death.

    bugkiller
     
  10. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
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    You have way to much bad teaching/doctrine/theology in your post to properly respond to so people will read a rebuttal.

    bugkiller
     
  11. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

    626
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    Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
    Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    Deuteronomy 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    Deuteronomy 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
    Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
    Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    Deuteronomy 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
    Deuteronomy 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    Proverbs 3:1-2 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
    Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
    Proverbs 13:14 The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    Whoever disobeys the law willfully suffers for it and often is punished for doing so.
    Doesn't matter if they think they are saved or not.
    Not even "Salvation by grace" exempts anyone ... and if they are not saved by grace, and they still disobey the law willfully, they are even worse off today and on judgment day.
    As Jesus Says, some may even be better off with a millstone tied around their neck and tossed into the deepest sea than living as they are living .....
     
  13. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

    626
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    Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
    Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

    Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    That's the one. I thought it read like this "If someone considers sin in their heart, God does not listen to their prayer"....
    i.e.
    for the vast majority of 'christians' and non-christians on earth,
    God does not hear their prayer.

    That makes everything a lot more clear once it is known. (why the world is such a bad place, and people everywhere wonder why God doesn't do something for them) .
     
  15. Travis93

    Travis93 Well-Known Member Supporter

    626
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    Psalms 18:41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
    Proverbs 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
    Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.
    Ezekiel 8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
    Micah 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the Lord, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.
    Zechariah 7:12-13 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts. Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the Lord of hosts:
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +10,926
    Anabaptist
    Jews and gentiles Redeemed by BLOOD, the PRECIOUSNESS of YESHUA,

    REJOICE in the LAW as Yhwh's Torah is Perfect, there is no fault in it.
    What is SO GOOD ? ? ?

    Simple,
    Ideally,
    IF people honored Yhwh's Torah,
    there would
    be
    no
    greedy property flipping,
    greedy stock market,
    greedy lawyering,
    greedy business practices,
    greedy pharmacy death dealing,
    greedy religious death dealing,
    greedy oppression of the poor and homeless,
    greedy inflammation of adultery and divorce,
    greedy child murdering and kidnapping,
    greedy isolation of family members - causing rampant loneliness.
     
  17. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
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    What's yer point?

    bugkiller
     
  18. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
    Non-Denom
    Speak for yourself, since you're willfully not compliant.

    bugkiller
     
  19. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
    Non-Denom
    So you wish everyone to ignore most of the NT.

    bugkiller
     
  20. bugkiller

    bugkiller Well-Known Member

    +2,609
    Non-Denom
    Do you mean that's why many can't manipulate God?

    bugkiller
     
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