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Featured Future New World Order One World Government...in the Bible?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. No

    13 vote(s)
    37.1%
  2. Yes

    20 vote(s)
    57.1%
  3. I don't know what that is

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Other

    2 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    But you are wrong in understanding and in context.

    Revelation 7 takes place between the Sixth and Seventh Seals. The first 3 verses set the location and that never changes. Your belief is just supposition and assumption by those who think that heaven is our destination.

    Jesus is revealed to His people before the Return in glory, seen by all. Proved by 2 Thessalonians 1:10 and Revelation 14:1

    Revelation 7:13 does say John spoke to an elder, but remember that John was in heaven, Rev 4:1, seeing a preview of future earthly events.
    Are you unable to realize that God, His Throne, the elders, etc, are all Spiritual entities? They are, therefore; anywhere and everywhere in relation to our earthly dimension.
     
  2. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. You didn’t rebut one verse I gave.
    I gave verse and context.

    2. So you are the one giving assumption and conjecture.
    1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 14:1 has no bearing on the context of Revelation 7 which is in Heaven not on earth.
    A text without context is a pre-text and that is your hermeneutics which is wrong.

    3. Revelation 7:13 the elder and John both were in Heaven.
    Revelation 4:1; the door is an actual portal into Heaven and he was told to come up hither when he heard the voice as a trumpet sounding.
    This was not merely to see a preview but where the church is raptured.
    Revelation 1:10 John was in the Spirit on earth and John 4:1 John was raptured to Heaven in the Spirit and stays there throughout the tribulation and till the Holy City comes down from Heaven Revelation 21:10. This is significant enough to prove the rapture.
    Revelation 10:11 we know in reality John has to prophesy on earth later after he eats the book.

    4. I realize Heaven things are spiritual realities.
    Do you realize that they are also physical realities?
    Anywhere and everywhere in relation to our earthly dimension is a loose con nation to try and prove your point. It doesn’t work.
    Heaven is in the farthest northern part of the universe and cannot be seen by our dimension upon our own accord.
    All you are doing is spiritualizing and allegorical interpretation for the most part cannot be consistent with biblical truth. Jerry Kelso
     
  3. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Dual Covenant Theology; If you say this means two different covenants
    baberean2,

    1. John Hagee has never believed in dual covenant theology according to the Jerusalem Post.
    He believes the Jew has to be saved the same way Gentiles are.
    He never made it a point in his nights for Israel for conversion purposely to remain friends with them. If they were to inquire about salvation later he would share.
    So you have the wrong information and I have listened enough to know he wouldn’t believe that the Jew didn’t have to be saved or that we shouldn’t witness to them.

    2. Dual covenant theology to many Jews and Gentiles is replacement theology. Many Messianic Jews believe this is why Jews don’t believe in Jesus.
    You believe in replacement theology because you believe their covenants are gone and now reside in the auspices of the church.

    3. Dual Covenant theology to some believe it is based on race and would enter the covenant just because they were God’s chosen people. The Jews by obeying the Old Testament and Gentiles by the New Testament.
    I don’t believe this for the Bible says that
    no one can be saved by any other name but Jesus Acts 4:12 and his finished work Romans 10:9-10.

    4. There is only one covenant for salvation, Jew and Gentile alike and that is in Matthew 26:28.
    So your accusation of many seeds replacing the one seed is not scriptural. Galatians 3:16. The whole chapter 3 is about salvation v14: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    V 26; For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    V 28; There is neither Jew nor Greek, their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ.

    5. Titus 3:9; genealogies about the law is when the Jews thought they were better than the wicked as in Ezekiel 18 and God told them they were wrong.
    Genealogies about Israel being saved according to the New Covenant and will rule at the head of the nations Isaiah 1-4 is not foolish because God said they would. V 9 is not talking about true doctrine 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8.
    So you are out of context.

    6. The church has salvation through Abraham’s covenant Galatians 3:16-19.
    The land of Israel promised to Israel the nation Genesis 12:1-2; 7; 15:5,18; 22:16,17; 26:1-4; 28:10-15 is not promised to the church.
    The Davidic Kingdom will have the Church in leadership and rulership throughout the earth as Kings, Priests, and Rulers Revelation 5:10.
    The church is not promised to be at the head of the nations such as Israel Isaiah 2:1-4;Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel Isaiah 2:1-5; Zechariah 14:7-9 and David its King Ezekiel 37:24-28.
    This was not promised to the church.

    7. The only thing you can call dual according to race are the gifts and callings of Israel that God promises to them and not the church.
    Replacement theology statement breeds anti-semitism according to Messianic Jews and that is another reason why they say many Jews don’t believe in Jesus.

    8. While I don’t think you are anti-Semitic it is possible to be biased towards the church because both Jew and Gentile are one in the body of Christ spiritually and you probably believe that the church is the end of the process of redemption.
    I can understand this line of thinking but God made unconditional and eternal covenant of gifts and callings with Israel that are are conditional to the nation of Israel becoming saved that he did not make to the church. You just need to accept that truth because you can’t give scripture to prove otherwise. If you do it will be out of context or spiritualizing the passage. But you can try. Jerry Kelso
     
  4. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This is the crux of your errors.
    It is you that wants a Two people - Two Promises, something that is not Biblical; in fact opposed to Jesus' teaching. John 10:16, John 17:20-23

    We Christians are the inheritors of Gods Promises to Israel, through Jesus, the One Israel of God. Grafted into the Tree of life.
    The visible entity that calls itself Israel, does have a destiny; of destruction and only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 6:11-13, +

    Your incredibly pretentious belief of being 'raptured to heaven', while the Jews remain, going thru Tribulation, is totally unbiblical and will never happen.
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I believe what the Bible says about God's Son.
    The Bible is a book about Him.
    He is the "seed" of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

    You have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.
    Therefore, it is you who believes in "Replacement Theology".



    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


    Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.


    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


    Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
    Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    .
     
  6. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. I gave you scripture and you don’t want to believe and you cannot rebut it. All you do is disagree and anybody can do that.

    2. Do you really believe that David is being King over Israel means gentiles?
    Ezekiel 37:24.
    Do you really believe Jerusalem is going to be a gentile City and capital in a gentile country called Israel? Isaiah 1-5; Zechariah 14.
    Genesis 12:1-2; Ezekiel 37:25 do you really think that posterity is talking about the church?

    3. The gifts and callings of Israel are different than the churches.
    That is why Paul said in Romans 11:28; As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sake.

    4. John 10:16; this is really talking about Israel and Judah Ezekiel 37:16-28 for they were separated then and will be in the time of Jacob’s trouble which is for Israel not the church Jeremiah 30:7. Israel and Judah will be two sticks that will become one stick and will have one shepherd and one fold. This is not the church.
    The church age saints of Jews and Gentiles today are not separated and are not sticks that have to become one for we are one.

    5. John 17:20-23; Jesus is praying for the disciples directly and indirectly for those who will believe so they may be one in Christ and be made perfect as Christians. This has nothing do with the different gifts and callings whether of Israel’s Romans 11:29 or the churches destiny 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9-10.

    6. Being grafted In has nothing to do with the gifts and callings of Israel belong to the church Romans 11:28-29.

    7. Romans 9:27; God has always have a remnant to preserve the seed.
    Isaiah 6:11-13 says nothing about a remnant directly.
    Revelation 12:13-16 is the sun clothed woman that is Israel 12:1-2.
    She will be preserved in the wilderness and will be united with the believing remnant who are scattered in v 17.
    Romans 11:26 The deliver will come out of the Heavenly Sion and deliver Israel and shall turn away their ungodliness from Jacob. V27 For this is my covenant when I shall take away their sins.
    This implies that the woman in the wilderness are not saved and will be those who will fulfill Revelation 1:7 for they will see the one they pierced. That is when they will get the picture and get saved under the New Covenant.
    There is no scripture that says the church will be backslidden, or will have to be purified specifically through the time of Jacob’s trouble for the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Only Israel has been a nation trodden down under the feet of men completely Matthew 5:13.
    So once again you are wrong. Jerry Kelso
     
  7. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. I believe Genesis 3:15 too.

    2. The one seed being Christ in Genesis 3:15 that would overcome at Calvary and provide redemption for all as the one and only sacrifice by which no man can be saved by any other name or finished work Acts 4:12 and Romans’ 10:9-10, I believe that too.
    All the point of the scriptures you gave are to Jesus and his salvation and I believe that too.
    So your whole accusation against me saying that I replaced the one seed Jesus the Savior with the many seeds as being savior is false, ridiculous, and insulting.
    Jerry Kelso
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis



    .
     
  9. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. Why do you keep posting videos that are not scriptural facts.

    2. Why do you keep avoiding answering my questions involving scriptural truth?

    3. Why do you continue to accuse me of scriptural folly when you cannot prove it by scripture or scriptural logic either?

    4. Why do you refuse to be fair in exegesis?

    Jerry Kelso
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    I quoted 4 scriptures in #224, to support my position.

    However, I will withdraw from further discussion with you, as your intransigent and confrontational attitude; mean that I am wasting my time.
    The end time events will come as a big surprise to you!
     
  11. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    keras,

    1. I am not being confrontational.
    I believe in proper debate and rebuttal.
    You don’t seem to believe that.

    2. I answered and refuted your objections and scriptural context in #224.

    3. You didn’t even answer back till now and it wasn’t a rebuttal of what I said.
    I could say some of your comments were confrontational but I don’t believe you are being apologetic in exegesis either.
    You can believe whatever you like but why should I agree with you when you cannot prove your point by scriptural context or scriptural logic or don’t even try?

    4. I was clear to the point of what I was saying and what I wasn’t saying about the gifts and callings and you agreed they had a destiny but wanted to mix the Church in when it is not in scripture and I pointed that out by scripture.
    That’s being confrontational and intransigent.
    That kind of reasoning is a waste of time.
    Whatever the end time comes out doesn’t matter as long as we’re saved. Jerry Kelso
     
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,

    Since your definition of Israel may have changed, how does God recognize His Chosen People?

    1. By their DNA?
    2. By their religion?
    3. By their culture?
    4. By their faith and obedience in and to His Son?
     
  13. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    jgr,

    1. I never said my definition of Israel changed, nor did I imply that.
    The only change from today to the millennial kingdom is from a backslidden nation Matthew 23:37-39 to the whole nation being saved Romans 11:25-29.

    2. DNA?
    The Jewish nation of Israel came from God through the loins of Abraham Genesis 12:1-2 a gentile from the pagan nation of Ur of the Chaldeans Genesis 11:31.
    Matthew 1 shows a few gentiles in the lineage.
    Raman and Ruth were gentiles. Tamar and Bathsheba were Jews.
    Christ descended from Jews and Gentiles.
    Rehab was a harlot James 2:25; Tamar and Bathsheba committed adultery Genesis 38; 2 Samuel 11:1-5; Ruth was a pure woman Ruth 3:11.
    Israel being 12 tribes Genesis 49:1-27 started with Jacob whose name was changed from Jacob to Israel Genesis 32:28.
    The way God looks at it; 1 Corinthians 10:32: Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the Church of God.
    Read 1 Chronicles 17:21-22; Ephesians 2:12; Matthew 16:18.
    God made and makes the distinctions between these 3 groups.

    2. Religion?
    Israel had a specific and full theocracy with God physically and spiritually.
    They were under the complete rule of God personally and were under the Mosaic law Exodus through Matthew which the Church was never under Hebrews 8:6-7.
    1 Peter 2:9 was from Deuteronomy 7:6; Exodus 19:6; Israel was the original peculiar and holy nation etc. that set them apart etc.

    3. Culture?
    Their whole culture was built around the Mosaic law and even today there culture is built around the law of Moses or the law under the New Covenant as Messianic Jews.
    The law was to be forever for the Jewish nation because it was expressed in eternal terms according to Dake. He says no one could ever keep the law yet the law was given for them to keep forever. If so it would have to be in the future and in such a way that harmonizes with the law of Christ 1 Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 6:2.

    4. Faith and obedience of Israel has to be in Christ and his finished work of Christ on the cross Galatians 2:19-21. This was written by Paul who was a New Covenant Israelite Romans 11:1 and who he was concerned for those that were backslidden and yet not forsaken by God who foreknew them Romans 11:2.

    5. God foreknew the Nation of Israel to forever have the land of Israel Genesis 12:1-2; Ezekiel 37:24 and their posterity forever Ezekiel 37:25-28.
    Also David’s throne Isaiah 9:6-7.
    This is for Israel not the church. Read 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-8.
    Jerry Kelso
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Do you think Paul changed his mind between chapter 9, and chapter 11?

    Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is only one Scriptural answer to my questions in the previous post.

    If anyone believes that any of Jewish DNA, religion, or culture are sufficient to qualify any individual as one of God's Chosen People, without the need for faith and obedience in and to His Son; then they are proclaiming the counterfeit gospel of the Galatian judaizers.

    Paul's description of it, and those who proclaim it, can be found in Galatians 1:6-9.

    God is not a racist, notwithstanding dispensationalism's incessant attempts to turn Him into one.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
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  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    jerry,

    You say:
    "God’s promises are in Christ."

    Scripture says:
    2 Corinthians 1
    20 For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    See your missing word?

    True. And His Son has occupied David's throne within it since His resurrection. (Acts 2:25-36).

    That's one of all of God's promises in Christ.

    That's the point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
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  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The only one talking about DNA is you. No one has a blood sample of Jacob. And the Arab nations are descended from Shem as well as the Jews.

    God knows who the Jews according to decent are from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; whose ancestors said "we do" on Mt. Sinai.

    of the church...
    1Peter2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    "a" not "the".

    of Israel...

    Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

    "an" not "the".
    ____________________________________________________

    To be a Christian is greater than being a Jew, nor any tribal person of the earth, born of women.

    Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
  18. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your Jewish brethren disagree.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Your doctrine requires a person to ignore what Paul said about the one seed in Galatians 3:16, and to ignore what Paul said about genealogies in Titus 3:9.

    Christ said the kingdom would be taken from those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone" in Matthew chapter 21, but you are trying to give it back to them.



    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

    .
     
  20. jerry kelso

    jerry kelso Food For Thought

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    baberean2,

    1. I’ve already multiple times proved your position wrong and all you can do is disagree.

    2. In the Old Testament the Jews, God’s chosen people had the covenants and callings etc.
    This doesn’t mean that Gentiles couldn’t be saved for they were proselyted into Judaism and God has always made a way for Gentiles to be saved outside of Israel but through their conscience. God is not a respect or of persons.
    However, Israel was the light and salt of the earth and gentiles were to be proselytized into Judaism in order to be saved.

    3. Throughout the Old Testament the Davidic Kingdom is promised to Israel the nation and its posterity Ezekiel 37:25.
    Also, the nations shall flow into Israel in the millennial kingdom not the church.
    This is not because Israel is greater than the church. It’s because they were given the actual laws for a physical nation to operate and exist as a full theocracy physical and spiritual as well.
    Jerry Kelso
     
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