Fundamentalist Views On Protestant Churchless Christians

[FredVB]

Eager, curious believers with their Bibles in hand gathering in comfort and with no time constraints to pray, commune, testify, wonder and inquire of God together. No doubt the movement is growing. But some say there is no headship, no seminary, no denominational rod and staff. Ah, but there is the Holy Spirit and an honest sense of reverent hunger, willing to spend good chunks of time, elbows rubbing together. Just as in the Book of Acts.

It could be really good, but it would not be just like the first church, in Jerusalem, in the book of Acts. As young and new believers gathered in homes, they would not have spiritually mature leadership now as such believers had in the first. church, as shown in Acts, under the Apostles, and with leaders coming to be appointed by them.

 

[justhappeneduponthis]

Only Christ is indispensable. Not our leaders. The majority of them are dead tired because the flock sit back and play "hobby church" when actually a war is going on. If the ones (members) with verve are stifled by leadership, they simply get out.

See this link, and I mean it!
http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/268292

 

[Albion]

I see what you are saying and agree whole-heartedly with a scenario that appears cult-like, and not practicing worship in Spirit and Truth. A guy invites a group of remedially advanced God-fearing, salt of the earth people to his ranch for "church". This could be catastrophic !!!

Right. And this is one of the dangers--or shortcomings, as I first said--of the home church movement.

OTOH, a church that was once Rock-solid gradually over a certain amount of time due to new members, a new preacher or _____ , becomes lukewarm and cannot be admonished or rebuked, people would feel compelled to leave.

OK. I agree.

Most of the leadership cannot be persuaded that a problem even exists, but there are a few who reject the new-fangled contemporary, secular, whimsical frivolities. Elders, deacons and congregants all leave. This is what would be called a church "split" in some circles. If these folks form a congregation that meets in a house...so be it.

Yes, but that rarely is the case. Normally, when something like you describe here occurs, a split ensuse in which a survivor congregation is formed and affiliates with a branch of their old denomination that is still holding to the traditional faith...and almost every denomination has witnessed this in the past quarter-century or so when so many of the mainline denominations began to go soft. There is an alternative waiting. Of course, they can choose to meet in a house, but normaly they choose somewhere more visible, such as renting another denomination's church or meeting in a community center, etc. They do not become a non-denominational congregation of the house church kind just because the church they used to belong to went astray.

If the Presbyterian Church USA loses its best people, there's the Presbyterian Church in America. When the Episcopal Church began to lose members over this issue, there were the newly-formed Anglican churches holding to the old faith. And so on.

Maybe this direction is not the intent of the OP.

I tend to think that it was not the intention; but it does relate, so I think it was worth briefly discussing this particular alternative as we did.

 

[FredVB]

Only Christ is indispensable. Not our leaders. The majority of them are dead tired because the flock sit back and play "hobby church" when actually a war is going on. If the ones (members) with verve are stifled by leadership, they simply get out.

See this link, and I mean it!
Smashwords — Already Been Said — A book by Doug Blair

Christ is indispensable for our salvation and our fellowship with God. There can be small Christian fellowship among believers without leadership, but there is, with a lot said about fellowship in the Bible, nothing suggesting there is good fellowship of young believers without any leadership with spiritually mature Christians. Without any of such maturity, growth without growing in any error cannot be the least bit assured. If it is a matter of leaving a church with dead leadership, there can and should be search for a better church, there are such, and this is certainly with including home fellowships as a possibility.

 

[anglozaxon]

I agree with Fred's last post

 

[justhappeneduponthis]

Fred, if I do not have a regular conventional fellowship, but the Spirit of Christ is pulsing through me, I will hunger for sincere friends of the faith and find them. Some of them will be senior in their walk. They have been gifted with more light to date, and I will respect that. I will not be left alone to foolish undisciplined distortions of doctrine. I am not at risk of heresy. I partake of the means of grace. God delights in that hunger and fills the yearning spirit.

Many in this forum need to take a break from the conventional, and from the single spin of Pastor in that pathetically small dose on Sunday morning, and perhaps Wednesday night.

I acknowledge that I accepted Christ at a Crusade. I was immersed while in regular attendance at a fellowship. I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost under the ministry of a travelling, smiling Cajun evangelist. Friends at unconventional times taught me to fear my light and to earnestly pursue every felt demand put upon my conscience. They also convinced that not one of the gifts of the Spirit (1Corinthians 12) has passed away. They are gifted, imparted, and not learned. That takes us out of the lecture format.

My best times with Jesus occurred when I was alone (as with Nicodemus, the woman at the well, the man born blind, Handel the composer, John Bunyan or Madame Guyon in prison). But then there is also His fellowship in service or in suffering.

Consider the following link to one of my blogs:
They Dwell in Thee « justhappeneduponthis

Or perhaps an ebook All Roads Are His:
Smashwords — All Roads Are His — A book by Doug Blair

 

[Albion]

Fred's basically got the point there.

While you idealize house fellowships, he addresses them as most of them actually are--which is what I tried to do.

Of course there could be, somewhere, a few house fellowships that feature a trained pastor, duly called by a congregation, where all that a normal church provides can also be found in evidence. BUT THEY ARE THE EXCEPTIONS. Normally, they are little more than Bible study groups led by laymen doing the best they can as substitutes for the elders, deacons, bishops, and other ministers that the New Testament describes and, usually, trying to do it without the sacraments that we also know the early church administered.

If anyone finds fault with one of the mainline churches, there is always an alternative in a smaller church of another denomination. The idea that all normal churches are rotten because we can point to some denominations or congregations that have gone astray is not only untrue but quite unfair to the churches that have not gone that way. No one has to jump from the big, wealthy, lifeless church all the way to an informal gathering in hiding, as though there is nothing in between.

 

[anglozaxon]

The idea that all normal churches are rotten because we can point to some denominations or congregations that have gone astray is not only untrue but quite unfair to the churches that have not gone that way.quote]

Yes! This is was I was trying to say earlier, although you have probably said it better than me.

 

[cubanito]

Fred's basically got the point there.

While you idealize house fellowships, he addresses them as most of them actually are--which is what I tried to do.

Of course there could be, somewhere, a few house fellowships that feature a trained pastor, duly called by a congregation, where all that a normal church provides can also be found in evidence. BUT THEY ARE THE EXCEPTIONS. Normally, they are little more than Bible study groups led by laymen doing the best they can as substitutes for the elders, deacons, bishops, and other ministers that the New Testament describes and, usually, trying to do it without the sacraments that we also know the early church administered.

If anyone finds fault with one of the mainline churches, there is always an alternative in a smaller church of another denomination. The idea that all normal churches are rotten because we can point to some denominations or congregations that have gone astray is not only untrue but quite unfair to the churches that have not gone that way. No one has to jump from the big, wealthy, lifeless church all the way to an informal gathering in hiding, as though there is nothing in between.

I came to know Christ at the lawn of a house Church. For years afterward I attended a different house Church (self-named and incorporated as Ecclesia, my how creative). Both were excellent, large, had formal elders and deacons. While most of the pastors were not formally trained (and all dual-career); their devotion to the fidelity of Scripture more than made up for their lack of credentials.

I am now a member of the PCA, which as Albion notes, is a typical situation of the few conservatives leading to set up a denomination. Currently I am watching with concern some liberalizing trends in the PCA. If they worsen, I'll probably go to the Southern Baptists.

While I agree that formal denominations with seminaries ect are probably best for most of God's work; the body of Christ is diverse. I do not think the eye ought be looking down at the toes, pun intended. Even among very liberal Churches, there are True Christians that are accomplishing God's work. My mind always turns to CS Lewis as an example here.

A human body is organized along hierarchical lines. Think of the gall of asking a liver cell to produce urine! It is only right the liver cell would be p---ed off in the kidney (as usual, I am having too much fun with puns).

So, this is a Fundy site. Here we do things a certain way and are of a certain mindset. Let us not forget Christ decides who is and is not His; and who is and is not doing His will.

That does not mean we should forego all debate, sing kumbaya and throw doctrine out for some superficial ecumenism. In a proper body each organ maintains distinctiveness, and often acts to correct other organs when they begin to malfunction. No, it means we have heated debate, but in the context of allowing that we are ALL imperfect and have something or other needing correction with our theology.

JR

 

[anglozaxon]

I would make a great appendix!!!!

 

[Albion]

I came to know Christ at the lawn of a house Church. For years afterward I attended a different house Church (self-named and incorporated as Ecclesia, my how creative). Both were excellent, large, had formal elders and deacons. While most of the pastors were not formally trained (and all dual-career); their devotion to the fidelity of Scripture more than made up for their lack of credentials

I am now a member of the PCA, which as Albion notes, is a typical situation of the few conservatives leading to set up a denomination. Currently I am watching with concern some liberalizing trends in the PCA. If they worsen, I'll probably go to the Southern Baptists.

There's a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hialeah.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Wanted to get views here on what posters think of unchurched christians.Clearly in an age when more and more true bible believers are leaving the ritual of going to fellowship in church building each sunday i wanted to know if posters here have adapted this growing reality or whether you stick to the rigidity of insisting on church attendance and consider anything less as backsliding in faith.
If you do believe it is highly important then please discuss your reasons, for example considering many churches, theological colleges & clergy have been found to be corrupted and influenced or infiltrated by many pagan ideas and deceiving personas e.g speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel etc.. why would you judge a non church goer when they may actually be doing far more righteous actions in Gods view by not attending spiritually apostate churches and preached to by apostate clergy.

Couldn't agree more. Although if I was to knit pick, the believer is the church. When people ask me if I go to church I sometimes say, "I am the Church" Most people are astonished by such a claim. "Un-Churched" to me means un-brainwashed. Purley based on the reasons you state at the end of your post. It is almost impossible to find a fellowship where the truth is preached consistently with out error.

One of my dear Christian brothers started a home church because of this, it has upward of 50 members now and he has had to almost leave in order to get the pastor to stop teaching Calvinist heresy and he formed the fellowship. It caused him a great deal of anguish. He was also almost physically manhandled out of another fellowship he was a deacon in for challenging false doctrine and bad practice. I myself was laughed out of one for doing the same thing.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

There's a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hialeah.

Lack of credentials I find to be a very interesting turn of phrase in this instance given that none of the early church and or apostles had any credentials to speak of either and the greatest Christian of all time worked to earn his keep. Further more the disciples where a constant annoyance and frustration to the Lord and they didn't even recognize or believe in Him as God for about three years and they where with Him every day. Nor did they know to seek Him for salvation as we do. And when they did finally catch on it was... "Lord can I sit next to you in heaven?" Yeeesh! Most of them were as thick as two short planks. A bit like me really "no credentials."

I went to "Bible College" full time for a year and I can't recall EVER being taught any bible doctrine or us all opening our bibles and studying it during class.

I happen to know of a very highly educated man PHD, well so he says any way, on the "religiousforums" he pastors a church and his ardent belief, which he confesses publicly is that the bible is a collection of myths, he had me banned from the site within days by trolling me and harassing me.

How would you feel knowing this is what your pastor believes. He told me he knew of "baptist seminaries" that trained pastors on specifically how to destroy another persons ministry. When challenged he never provided any evidence for this mind you, my take is he was a person trained for such a purpose. The guy had a dark evil presence I could literally feel and that was on a freaking computer screen.

 

[Albion]

Lack of credentials I find to be a very interesting turn of phrase in this instance given that none of the early church and or apostles had any credentials to speak of either and the greatest Christian of all time worked to earn his keep. Further more the disciples where a constant annoyance and frustration to the Lord and they didn't even recognize or believe in Him as God for about three years and they where with Him every day. Nor did they know to seek Him for salvation as we do. And when they did finally catch on it was... "Lord can I sit next to you in heaven?" Yeeesh! Most of them were as thick as two short planks. A bit like me really "no credentials."

I went to "Bible College" full time for a year and I can't recall EVER being taught any bible doctrine or us all opening our bibles and studying it during class.

I happen to know of a very highly educated man PHD, well so he says any way, on the "religiousforums" he pastors a church and his ardent belief, which he confesses publicly is that the bible is a collection of myths, he had me banned from the site within days by trolling me and harassing me.

How would you feel knowing this is what your pastor believes. He told me he knew of "baptist seminaries" that trained pastors on specifically how to destroy another persons ministry. When challenged he never provided any evidence for this mind you, my take is he was a person trained for such a purpose. The guy had a dark evil presence I could literally feel and that was on a freaking computer screen.

There is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hialeah, FL for Cubanito or anyone else in that area who's looking for a conservative alternative to the Presbyterian Church (USA). Your reply to my comment of 3+ months ago may relate to that information but, if so, it eluded me.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

There is a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hialeah, FL for Cubanito or anyone else in that area who's looking for a conservative alternative to the Presbyterian Church (USA). Your reply to my comment of 3+ months ago may relate to that information but, if so, it eluded me.

Sorry for the confusion, I was actually responding to another poster that you had responded too. Thanks

 

[Albion]

Sorry for the confusion, I was actually responding to another poster that you had responded too. Thanks

Whew. Thanks for the clarification; it just didn't seem to add up to me, but you quoted me, so it looked like I was missing something.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Whew. Thanks for the clarification; it just didn't seem to add up to me, but you quoted me, so it looked like I was missing something.

Sorry bro, my bad. God bless

 

[FredVB]

Religious forums by that name are not what I expect to be Christian. While there is pure religion that is right for Christians, most Christian believers are not foremost going to identify themselves as religious, it implies an approach of doing works for spiritual benefits, and Christianity is about God's work with his grace toward us, with our response to that.

Credentials might not be in place, for some who are called to ministry in God's work, as it was for Christ's first disciples. But true responsiveness, to be seeking him, turning from sin, and wanting to learn and grow in truth with serving him should be in place. This can happen for any Christian fellowships including that in homes.

 

[Francis Drake]

My wife and I have been outside the church prison camp for about 6 years. It is so amazing to breathe the fresh air and not feel guilty at not being tied to a pew every Sunday morning.

We have become far freer to hear the voice of God and to be directed personally. Five of us now meet during the week, and for the most part, it seems that God has been steadily removing the garbage of church out of our system. Absorbing the real character of God is so wonderful and liberating. The still small voice is becoming clearer and clearer. Something we never found in the institutional system.

 

[FredVB]

To be clear about it, I do not find fault with home churches and fellowships as such attended instead of going to a church building, if attendance is regular, if no difficulties interfere at least every week, but they should in any case depend on Bible teaching, being fellowship in Christ, and any assembly of believers in that way is right, as churches in the Bible are shown to meet that way, and so there are good churches that even as institutions are good and being formed according to what God's word calls for, not at all prisons in any sense.