Fundamentalist Views On Protestant Churchless Christians

[TrutherAU]

Wanted to get views here on what posters think of unchurched christians.Clearly in an age when more and more true bible believers are leaving the ritual of going to fellowship in church building each sunday i wanted to know if posters here have adapted this growing reality or whether you stick to the rigidity of insisting on church attendance and consider anything less as backsliding in faith.
If you do believe it is highly important then please discuss your reasons, for example considering many churches, theological colleges & clergy have been found to be corrupted and influenced or infiltrated by many pagan ideas and deceiving personas e.g speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel etc.. why would you judge a non church goer when they may actually be doing far more righteous actions in Gods view by not attending spiritually apostate churches and preached to by apostate clergy.

 

[Albion]

Wanted to get views here on what posters think of unchurched christians.Clearly in an age when more and more true bible believers are leaving the ritual of going to fellowship in church building each sunday i wanted to know if posters here have adapted this growing reality or whether you stick doggedly to the rigidity of insisting on church attendance and consider anything less as backsliding in faith.

I wouldn't call it backsliding, and certainly not backsliding in faith. However, regular association with other Christians, instruction in the faith, and reception of the sacraments is important and explicitly given as advice in Scripture. Therefore, I sympathize with those who are Christian but do not have a church home by their own choice, while at the same time I do not think it an advisable course of action.

If you do believe it is highly important then please discuss your reasons, for example considering many churches, theological colleges & clergy have been found to be corrupted and influenced or infiltrated by many pagan ideas and deceiving personas e.g speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel etc..

In that case, you need to find a good church rather than walk away from all of them.

 

[cubanito]

I have been a formal member and regular attender at PCA Churches for over a decade now, and consider membership in a local body, with participation and attendance important. However, I spent 12 years of my life attending no Church. During that time, I did not "backslide" but continued studying the Bible, witnessing and while yet a sinner, not any more so than now. The reasons why amount to excuses, and I was wrong to stay away from formal visible Church congregations. I am NOT defending how I acted, nor the frequent position of many Christians who as "solo"

I will say that there is only ONE verse in the NT that tells us to congregate, and that verse is not about every week but rather "...do not forsake the assembling together as some have done." This verse tells us 3 things:
1- There is no stress on weekly attendance, but it is not right to altogether give up on the assembling together. Anyone who sees in this verse either an emphasis on corporate worship OR an excuse to stay away from it is wrong. Our salvation rests on an INDIVIDUAL relation with Christ, not on membership or participation in a visible Church.

2- There is a lack of condemnation of the "unchurched" here. While the "unchurched" are not behaving correctly, there seems to be none of the condemnation that is frequently and repeatedly written in the NT about other behaviours.

3- The lack of any other NT verses leads me to be wary of making strong opinions on this matter. It is dangerous to set up doctrine on a single verse, as Scripture helps us understand other Scripture. I do not say it can not be done, just that when there is a solitary verse one must be especially gentle and tolerant.

Personally, I find that many who do attend and participate in local assemblies have a very judgemental and unkind attitude toward those who find the structured formal visible Church of little benefit. I would rather attract my brothers with kindness, respect and gentle persuasion than try to guilt them into it. I dislike the term "unchurched" because a "loner" is still a member of the invisible Church, and while I did live like that, it did not stop God from using me.

JR

 

[Albion]

I have been a formal member and regular attender at PCA Churches for over a decade now, and consider membership in a local body, with participation and attendance important. However, I spent 12 years of my life attending no Church. During that time, I did not "backslide" but continued studying the Bible, witnessing and while yet a sinner, not any more so than now. The reasons why amount to excuses, and I was wrong to stay away from formal visible Church congregations. I am NOT defending how I acted, nor the frequent position of many Christians who as "solo"

I will say that there is only ONE verse in the NT that tells us to congregate, and that verse is not about every week but rather "...do not forsake the assembling together as some have done." This verse tells us 3 things:
1- There is no stress on weekly attendance, but it is not right to altogether give up on the assembling together. Anyone who sees in this verse either an emphasis on corporate worship OR an excuse to stay away from it is wrong. Our salvation rests on an INDIVIDUAL relation with Christ, not on membership or participation in a visible Church.

2- There is a lack of condemnation of the "unchurched" here. While the "unchurched" are not behaving correctly, there seems to be none of the condemnation that is frequently and repeatedly written in the NT about other behaviours.

3- The lack of any other NT verses leads me to be wary of making strong opinions on this matter. It is dangerous to set up doctrine on a single verse, as Scripture helps us understand other Scripture. I do not say it can not be done, just that when there is a solitary verse one must be especially gentle and tolerant.

Personally, I find that many who do attend and participate in local assemblies have a very judgemental and unkind attitude toward those who find the structured formal visible Church of little benefit. I would rather attract my brothers with kindness, respect and gentle persuasion than try to guilt them into it. I dislike the term "unchurched" because a "loner" is still a member of the invisible Church, and while I did live like that, it did not stop God from using me.

JR

I agree with most of what you've said. Enthusiastically agree.

I might, however, underscore the point made earlier about unkind congregants or parishioners, corrupt pastors, etc. If you (meaning anyone) doesn't like them, find another church and don't use THAT as an excuse for non-attendance.

 

[lismore]

These days unchurched Christians are increasing in number.

Some cannot find a nearby church at all that preaches the gospel and where they can have fellowship.

I left an AOG church a few years back and had a hard time finding a good church. The church I finally found was like the 12th that I tried!

 

[Tigger45]

Wanted to get views here on what posters think of unchurched christians.Clearly in an age when more and more true bible believers are leaving the ritual of going to fellowship in church building each sunday i wanted to know if posters here have adapted this growing reality or whether you stick doggedly to the rigidity of insisting on church attendance and consider anything less as backsliding in faith.
If you do believe it is highly important then please discuss your reasons, for example considering many churches, theological colleges & clergy have been found to be corrupted and influenced or infiltrated by many pagan ideas and deceiving personas e.g speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel etc.. why would you judge a non church goer when they may actually be doing far more righteous actions in Gods view by not attending spiritually apostate churches and preached to by apostate clergy.

For me I've been searching for a home church for almost a decade. I have to admit my faith started to get diluted. During that period I literally visited dozens of churches. I longed to find a home church. I know the church is made up by imperfect people including myself but for some reason I just didn't fit in. Maybe my biggest problem was a poor self esteem. I reviel this because the Lord knew we all have our short comings but He still tells us not to forsake the assembly of the brotherhood. Another person might be too legalistic about secondary doctrinal issues and dividing with a church over what might be called pride. I don't think it's an accident that in life I've hit a bump in the road and and at the same time I am being called to a specific congregation. I'm begining to understand that God turned my poor self esteem into a humble spirit. I think that changed my perspective from myself to God. I hope sharing my experience helps someone else in the same situation.

 

[If Not For Grace]

However, regular association with other Christians, instruction in the faith, and reception of the sacraments is important and explicitly given as advice in Scripture.

But that is not specific or limited to a building with a steeple and pews for seating. Organized Religon has done as much harm as good to christianity and IF you can find a place without strife that actually is teaching and preaching the Word rather than taking attendance and bickering consider yourself fortunate-it seems harder these days..So many dogmatics focused on not loosiing "power" exist..not like in the beginning...I'm not against it, but I have expanded my gathering to more than the Baptist Church in the last 10 yrs more out of necessity than desire.

I remind myself that the Church is who we Are not where we go. The congregation is sometimes more backslidden than the individuals trying to carve out a place to be (careful if you sit in the wrong pew ) )

 

[Albion]

But that is not specific or limited to a building with a steeple and pews for seating.

I certainly agree there! A rented community room with untinted windows and chairs for seating does just fine. But staying home and watching a religious lecture on your computer is not exactly the advice we find given in the New Testament.

Organized Religon has done as much harm as good to christianity and IF you can find a place without strife that actually is teaching and preaching the Word rather than taking attendance and bickering consider yourself fortunate

Agreed, but whoever's in this situation should just do it rather than dwelling on the failings of the churches they do not attend.

 

[TrutherAU]

However, regular association with other Christians, instruction in the faith, and reception of the sacraments is important and explicitly given as advice in Scripture.

Surely only if it is beneficial though, if is discouraging or full of false ideas then it could not be better than keeping ones faith private. The problem for me is "ORGANISATION" or Corporation these words mean very much to centralise once it has reached critical mass. The more group think the more easy it is for deceivers to apply their false caft because peer approval suddenly becomes all important just look at the average catholic or anglican they constantly need to be concerned about fitting in or worried about what their peers or organisation thinks of them. One can say what they want about cults but one thing that is true of them, the smaller the group the easier it is to keep control with sound doctrine big groups are held together like fad or popularity contest eventually they split into any direction and end up being no particular direction because it was all tradition being born into it, a mere superficial attachment.

In that case, you need to find a good church rather than walk away from all of them.

Why is this important to you why do you care? Surely your concern is superficial since I am an unknown poster on a forum you dont even know. So why do you care.

 

[TrutherAU]

I remind myself that the Church is who we Are not where we go. The congregation is sometimes more backslidden than the individuals trying to carve out a place to be (careful if you sit in the wrong pew ) )

Exactly thanks for the contribution.

 

[Albion]

Surely only if it is beneficial though, if is discouraging or full of false ideas then it could not be better than keeping ones faith private.

Of course. That's what I've been saying all along. But I've also said that you can't logically exempt yourself from the benefits that are there, somewhere, just because some churches and pastors are not up to par. Before giving up, we have an obligation to find a good church if possible.

Why is this important to you why do you care? Surely your concern is superficial since I am an unknown poster on a forum you dont even know. So why do you care.

When I said "you" in that sentence it was meant as a generic or general use of the word, not that I was referring to what you personally ought to do.

 

[desmalia]

Overall I have to say I'm in agreement with Albion's responses to the question. Yes, there are believers who do forsake fellowshipping with others because they've been hurt or because they struggle to find churches locally that are faithful to God's word. I've been in that boat. For several years, actually. I was wrong. It was damaging to me and dishonoring to God. How the Lord sanctifies and blesses us is through fellowship and relationships with other believers - other imperfect (but forgiven) people who will test us and even hurt us at times. There is where we have the opportunity to share and display the forgiveness of the Gospel.

It's hard, yes. It's been a many-year journey for me to find a church that faithfully preaches the word of God. And even now the church I am at has huge problems and is temporary while we await the establishment of a church plant in my own city. None the less, we meet regularly and get involved even though it means a long expensive drive to the next city. We need to do it.

Yet, there are believers sprinkled through the churches I've tried over the years. So, even while a church may have serious issues, it's vital to remember that you can still have fellowship with the (few) believers there. We as believers need one another. When we look at the test of a believer in 1 John we see that one who has absolutely no interest or need for other believers would do well to question whether they are really in the faith. No, there may not be an ideal church in my area, but that doesn't mean I should walk away from meeting at all. If we are part of the body, we need other parts of the body, and they need us. No part was ever designed or called to stand alone in isolation.

Further, "church" isn't just about meeting once a week. It is about teaching, learning, fellowshipping, corporate worship, etc. At the very heart, it's utterly relational, just as the Lord is. That may not be done in a more "conventional" sense, such as in the case for underground churches. But the key here is regular meeting in whatever form that may take. The Bible does not lay out leadership and service guidelines on a whim. They must be taken seriously because they are for our good, and more importantly, for His glory.

Further, what I've come to understand in recent years is that church is not just about meeting one day a week. It should be much more than that. We need to be involved in one another's lives. We can't do that unless we're there regularly. Without that, where is the encouragement, exhortation, discipline, accountability, building up, etc.? Yes, that is foreign to our culture where everyone does their own thing, but it is what we are called to and given gifts of the Spirit for.

I'm certainly the last one qualified to condemn any believer for giving up on church involvement. But I do want to encourage those who have walked away from church to consider the ramifications of such a choice and pray for the Lord's healing and leading.

 

[SoulBap6]

Wanted to get views here on what posters think of unchurched christians

First of all the idea that some how people who go to church have a problem?

Claiming that the teaching:

theological colleges & clergy have been found to be corrupted and influenced or infiltrated by many pagan ideas and deceiving personas e.g speaking in tongues, prosperity gospel etc..
Heb.10

1. [25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

This again is not all Churches, and departing from going to Church. The church does not at least not the one I attend, have the views that you have stated.

why would you judge a non church goer when they may actually be doing far more righteous actions in Gods view by not attending spiritually apostate churches and preached to by apostate clergy.

I am a fundamental Baptist Preacher and I attend Church regularly, regarding judging thats up to you and God. As the scripture tells us to Assemble, I find it hard to believe that you use this as an excuse to stay away from Church. There are Churches that are not as you claim. With Clergy that preach the Bible, without this Paganism, and Spiritual Apostate, God forbid this sounds like you have been to the wrong Church.
There are many people that have been to these churches. I admit they are wrong, but they are not the only Church, many people are deceived by some of these churches, but please don't you Judge all churches by these churches. Its not us Judging you, it you Judging us. When people stay away from Church we get away from God and then we follow what the world does, and that is dangerous.1John.2

1. [15] Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Church helps us to remember to keep our relationship with the lord and to help us to grow in our faith. When the church come together it strengthen us and renews our faith.

 

[cubanito]

Desmalia strikes the appropiate balance, methinks. Rather than condemn, let us gently persuade. As to believing that "organized religion" has done as much good as harm, I disagree, as politely as I can. God sets up and works through human institutions, like Governments and denominations. Even when these are corrupt and seemingly in total opposition to Him, He still is in control. According to the prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah ect) empires like the Assyrians and Babylonians were set up and guided to destroy His people and even desecrate His Temple at Jerusalem by Him. ALL things work together for Good to those called. Does not appear so at times, certainly Daniel did not enjoy being castrated and hauled away to Babylon, yet how greatly was Daniel used that by becoming Chief Magi the coming of Jesus left a remnant among those astrologers that even among the Magi some came to worship and give gifts that were required for the flight to Egypt. If God can bring such Good through Babylon and astrology, how much more so through a visible congregation?

Additionally, my brothers, who like me for mor than a decade avoided the "organized church", where would you get your Bible? Think of the millenia of monks faithfully copying manuscripts, of the army of textual critics and translators who then labored full time to bring you a decent translation, and not just you, but almost every toungue and nation. The money and training for armies of missionaries to spread that Bible, even the Gideons that so many have converted by that Bible in the Hotel room. Sure, eliminate every organization and God would STILL accomplish His work. To extend Christ's saying, were the organized Church to cease, the very rocks would sprout hands to copy and translate Bibles, feet to spread them as well as mouths to declare the Glory of God. But God has chosen to give us the privilege to do it; and God has chosen structured "organized religious" bodies to set us in order.

Gently, may I suggest that before one condemns "organized religion" for it's many flaws, that one examine where such a mind set comes from? There was a time where the world heavily emphazised hierarchy and the Reformers clearly set the individual center stage. Well done, for the Bible alone is our final authority (and yes, it can only be understood via the agency of the Con-Forte-r who gives us the power (forte) to understand it). HOWEVER....it has been said that "all heresy is an exageration of Truth" and "all effective lies are half-Truths". God sets up structures. God respects, even within the Blessed Trinity, hierarchy, different roles and Government. In the age to come marriage will be done away with, "but of His Government there shall be no end."

Gently, very gently, may I suggest that much of today's attitudes among the "unchurched" comes from the current zeitgeist of post-modernism? Satan is just as happy with us censoring our conscience to blindly follow the dictates of men wearing long flowing robes and funny hats as he is that we reject all authority and become loners. Either way strays from the narrow path.

Is the narrow path easy? Just as easy as finding the perfect local visible Church I guess. So here's yet another reworked cliche, better to bring your candle to the ill-lit room of the best local body you can find, than sit home with your candle cursing the poor lighting provided next door.

And yes, women should start wearing hats to Church again, because of the angels.

JR

 

[Norah63]

If organized church was more like a forum it might better serve the congregants.
Taking part in dialog, instead of just putting in an appearance for a sermon, song and prayer. To actually have a place to confess our faults one to another, pray one for another, share one with another. Sing praises one with another.
However I know that the very word organize means to do all things decently and in order, and I have no problem with that either. Just seems a little impersonal.
I have attended small churches, they are alright and you would think there was more inneraction in small congregations, not so in my expierences. Have heard others say also that if you leave, no one calls to see if it was illness, hardship or just disinterest.
The Lord Jesus is assembling His Church I am sure of that. Scattered it may be at this time, yet right on schedule as my faith tells me.

 

[cubanito]

For convenience, I am going to use "Church" to refer to the invisible Chuch and "church" to refer to the local visible organized assembly. If someone prefers a different shorthand, by all means substitute it.

Norah, Church is what happens when we assemble together, formally or not. Local churches hopefully offer more than just the worship service. Most churches have "Sunday school" or "Christian education" as my local PCA calls it. In fact, no one can formally join my church without going through about 10 hours minimum of education. There's also Sunday morning classes, and small group Bible studies. Historically this came about because of "the Layman's Revival" in the USA, if memory serves in the mid 1800's. During these times participation, even heated debate, is encouraged especially insmaller groups. There is a practical problem during the sermon where there is simply too many people for that kind of give and take, which is why so many churches set up smaller "cells" to accomplish exactly what you want Norad. Still, it is largely because of the backing of the larger, more formally organized structure, that these smaller groups exist. For example, for many years I go to a men's meeting from 6AM to 7:30 AM every Wednsday (of course, there are days I can not drag myself out of bed at that hour, it is a brutal hour). That group of about 7 to 10 men has been ongoing for at least 30 years, obviously new people come, some people leave. It is an INTENSE group where we often yell at each other over matters like whose wife is on drugs and if you looked at inappropriate contento recently. We pray for one another, then we study the Bible. Only 4 of the regulars actually attend the church that hosts it, the rest, including myself, go to other congregations, but that local church provides the place, utilities and coffee so we can confess our sins to each othe, and scream at each other as we disagree. We are not all Presbytereans, though we are all Fundamentalists. We have been in the Gospel of Matthew for 2 years now, and probably will end it sometime early 2013, which is typical. We occasionally argue the Greek of a particular word in one verse. Like I said, intense and not for everybody, especially the 6AM meeting time (did I mention it is brutal?).

My point is that there is a LOT the organized churches of today offer beyond Sunday morning worship.

JR

 

[TrutherAU]

Further, "church" isn't just about meeting once a week. It is about teaching, learning, fellowshipping, corporate worship, etc. At the very heart, it's utterly relational, just as the Lord is. That may not be done in a more "conventional" sense, such as in the case for underground churches. But the key here is regular meeting in whatever form that may take. The Bible does not lay out leadership and service guidelines on a whim. They must be taken seriously because they are for our good, and more importantly, for His glory.

I am glad your all happy with all that. If one has a bible then they read this along with other aids to teach themselves it is not necessary to rely on some pastor in church. Some pastors are beneficial to listen to & some are clearly not. Generally I think every generation since the baby boomers make for some very lousy mentors in life this in every facet of society not just religion,point is most are just too narcissistic like everyone else thus they cant be relied on.
Generally speaking though I find pple that need to rely on others to do their thinking or moralising or as an emotional crutch as weak willed individuals.
In this age of the net & cable tv I do not believe it is necessary to attend physical church because one can listen to many sermons via numerous forms of media,net,tv,radio purchasing dvds,cd of sermons by their pastor or pastors of choice and dont see anything wrong with one conducting their faith this way especially if they find it more encouraging than attending some spiritually dead church.
Depending upon what country one lives or area one lives it may be more beneficial to the believer to take this option i say it is for me definitely. In my country of Australia for example it is nation which would say is secular in culture the actual amount of committed christians those that actually attend a church is small proportion of the population.
What you all have to understand is that protestant churches have fallen into ecumencism with ROME this has been happening for several decades now. Personally I want to keep the integrity of my reformed faith, as ex theology student i know how important this is. I dont want it altered by ideas from Rome or equally poisonous post modern apologetics or new age ideas(roots in theosophy & thelema) either. So i would much prefer to stay away from many wcc (World Council of Churches) affilated churches as possible they serve one agenda only that is Romes Ecumenical agenda control every single church on the globe.
As for fellowship generally it is only beneficial if it encourages or helps the individual believers in some way. For speaking for myself I am single male and middle aged i find most churches only geared towards families. Single pple especially single males are not made to feel welcome in many churches especially those that attract many generational christians the kind that attend due to family tradition more so than personal choice.
Wealth & status is another issue that still makes some in churches feel very unwelcome, in all there are numerous reasons why believers will not attend churches.

 

[ptomwebster]

For convenience, I am going to use "Church" to refer to the invisible Chuch and "church" to refer to the local visible organized assembly. If someone prefers a different shorthand, by all means substitute it.

Norah, Church is what happens when we assemble together, formally or not. Local churches hopefully offer more than just the worship service. Most churches have "Sunday school" or "Christian education" as my local PCA calls it. In fact, no one can formally join my church without going through about 10 hours minimum of education. There's also Sunday morning classes, and small group Bible studies. Historically this came about because of "the Layman's Revival" in the USA, if memory serves in the mid 1800's. During these times participation, even heated debate, is encouraged especially insmaller groups. There is a practical problem during the sermon where there is simply too many people for that kind of give and take, which is why so many churches set up smaller "cells" to accomplish exactly what you want Norad. Still, it is largely because of the backing of the larger, more formally organized structure, that these smaller groups exist. For example, for many years I go to a men's meeting from 6AM to 7:30 AM every Wednsday (of course, there are days I can not drag myself out of bed at that hour, it is a brutal hour). That group of about 7 to 10 men has been ongoing for at least 30 years, obviously new people come, some people leave. It is an INTENSE group where we often yell at each other over matters like whose wife is on drugs and if you looked at inappropriate contento recently. We pray for one another, then we study the Bible. Only 4 of the regulars actually attend the church that hosts it, the rest, including myself, go to other congregations, but that local church provides the place, utilities and coffee so we can confess our sins to each othe, and scream at each other as we disagree. We are not all Presbytereans, though we are all Fundamentalists. We have been in the Gospel of Matthew for 2 years now, and probably will end it sometime early 2013, which is typical. We occasionally argue the Greek of a particular word in one verse. Like I said, intense and not for everybody, especially the 6AM meeting time (did I mention it is brutal?).

My point is that there is a LOT the organized churches of today offer beyond Sunday morning worship.

JR

So now you think you are a Bible scholar or what?

 

[cubanito]

I am the greatest force in the universe, possesor of all knowledge, not a mere scholar.

JR

 

[Albion]

I am the greatest force in the universe, possesor of all knowledge, not a mere scholar.

JR

Being the greatest force in the universe, however, would carry with it expertise in all Bible-related matters.

Just so we have that cleared up.