Fundamentalism

ClothedInGrace

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Hello everyone,

I've been wondering this question as of late because I am genuinely concerned with those who hold to beliefs that contradict scripture. Can someone be a Christian yet reject doctrines like:
  • Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this
  • Virgin birth of Jesus
  • Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin
  • Bodily resurrection of Jesus
  • Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus
Is everyone who believes Jesus is the messiah a Christian with the Spirit of God living in them? Can we say those who believe unbiblical doctrines--like evolution, universalism, or that homosexuality is not sin--are actually saved? Where do we draw the line and say "this person is a born-again Child of God," and "this person is not"?

Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?

I'd appreciate any feedback.
Thanks!
 

timewerx

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Hello everyone,

I've been wondering this question as of late because I am genuinely concerned with those who hold to beliefs that contradict scripture. Can someone be a Christian yet reject doctrines like:
  • Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this
  • Virgin birth of Jesus
  • Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin
  • Bodily resurrection of Jesus
  • Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus
Is everyone who believes Jesus is the messiah a Christian with the Spirit of God living in them? Can we say those who believe unbiblical doctrines--like evolution, universalism, or that homosexuality is not sin--are actually saved? Where do we draw the line and say "this person is a born-again Child of God," and "this person is not"?

Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?

I'd appreciate any feedback.
Thanks!

No one rejects Christ at least according to one's beliefs. I'm sure all of us here would genuinely say and absolutely believe in our hearts we love Christ and would not reject Him. Yet, we all disagree on many things.

There's a saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". It is unfortunate to say that statement is not wholly false.

I'm sure no one here would wish to be blatantly evil and be an anti-Christ.

But you can reject Christ without you knowing it if you have been genuinely deceived by false teachers. And are false teachers blatantly evil and anti-Christ? I don't believe so.... I also think they are genuinely and absolutely preaching the truth when they in turn have been also deceived by false teachers.
 
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Albion

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Hello everyone,

I've been wondering this question as of late because I am genuinely concerned with those who hold to beliefs that contradict scripture. Can someone be a Christian yet reject doctrines like:
  • Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this
  • Virgin birth of Jesus
  • Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin
  • Bodily resurrection of Jesus
  • Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus
Is everyone who believes Jesus is the messiah a Christian with the Spirit of God living in them? Can we say those who believe unbiblical doctrines--like evolution, universalism, or that homosexuality is not sin--are actually saved? Where do we draw the line and say "this person is a born-again Child of God," and "this person is not"?

Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?

I'd appreciate any feedback.
Thanks!

It's hard to draw that line with precision. I'd say that it would be possible to deny all of the points you listed and still be considered a Christian--a very liberal one to be sure. That assumes that you do believe some other things about Christ, etc. while denying these. But if some other teachings were also denied, such as the divinity of Christ and the immortality of the soul, it would be a tough call, even if I wanted to be generous.
 
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ClothedInGrace

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It's hard to draw that line with precision. I'd say that it would be possible to deny all of the points you listed and still be considered a Christian--a very liberal one to be sure. That assumes that you do believe some other things about Christ, etc. while denying these. But if some other teachings were also denied, such as the divinity of Christ and the immortality of the soul, it would be a tough call, even if I wanted to be generous.
See, this is what I mean. I reject the immortality of the soul, because I do not see it taught in the Bible, but I know for a fact that I am God's child through faith in Jesus.

I'm curious, why is the immortality of the soul an important doctrine to you? Are you also aware that there are many who profess Christ yet deny the Trinity?
 
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Albion

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See, this is what I mean. I reject the immortality of the soul, because I do not see it taught in the Bible, but I know for a fact that I am God's child through faith in Jesus.

I'm curious, why is the immortality of the soul an important doctrine to you? Are you also aware that there are many who profess Christ yet deny the Trinity?
You asked, and I have to say that I am inclined towards those who argue that redefining the nature of God, the nature of Man, or the nature of the Bible puts one at that crossover point.

It could be that doing/accepting any of these makes a person a cultist but, perhaps, still some kind of Christian--a very, very unorthodox one to be sure. However, it could be that it crosses the line.

It's a hard call, I agree, especially since the world would call anyone who acclaims Jesus Christ as his leader, by just about any definition, to be a "Christian," if only because there's no other category that would seen more accurate.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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I've been wondering this question as of late because I am genuinely concerned with those who hold to beliefs that contradict scripture. Can someone be a Christian yet reject doctrines like:
  • Biblical inspiration and the infallibility of scripture as a result of this
  • Virgin birth of Jesus
  • Belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin
  • Bodily resurrection of Jesus
  • Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus
"Inspiration" of Scripture is a thorny issue. I believe that the Scriptures are inspired, but I also reject the infallibility of Scripture. Infallibility is a canard; there is no way to establish "infallibility" or "inerrancy" apart from Scripture, so any attempt to demonstrate the same based on Scripture itself is an exercise in circular reasoning.

Moreover, the notion of inerrancy is bound to modern assumptions about historicity and literary criticism which, for all intents and purposes, were completely alien concepts to the writers and original audiences of the Scriptures. To demand that Scripture pass the "tests" of these criteria is self-contradictory.

The virgin birth, resurrection, and miracles of Jesus are tough as well. As miracles, they can *only* be appropriated as truth via faith; unfortunately, these concepts are often linked with really poor attempts at apologetics which misplace the onus of "belief" and substitute it with (surprise) the criteria of modern epistemologies.

Finally, the notion of Christ's death as "atonement for sin" is equally riddled with theological thorns; as there are dozens of atonement theologies extant in Christian history, which one is "the one" that a person must believe?

Is everyone who believes Jesus is the messiah a Christian with the Spirit of God living in them? Can we say those who believe unbiblical doctrines--like evolution, universalism, or that homosexuality is not sin--are actually saved? Where do we draw the line and say "this person is a born-again Child of God," and "this person is not"?

Frankly, that line is not for you (or I) to draw. Whether or not a person is reconciled with God has little or nothing to do with your narrow interpretation of their alignment with your beliefs.

Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?

Your interpretation of Scripture is a very thin measure of a person's relationship with God. You should spend your time focusing on your own salvation, and let God worry about others.
 
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chandraclaws

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Is everyone who believes Jesus is the messiah a Christian with the Spirit of God living in them? Can we say those who believe unbiblical doctrines--like evolution, universalism, or that homosexuality is not sin--are actually saved? Where do we draw the line and say "this person is a born-again Child of God," and "this person is not"?

It's not our call and it's not our purpose to draw any kind of a "line" that we use to judge others Christians by.
 
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Jorge

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"Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?"

That is an excellent, critically important question which, unfortunately, does not receive the attention that it should. The full answer is dissertation-length. The short answer is "no" for one basic reason: the God of Scripture is not a "partial" God, He is an "all-or-nothing" God. God does not give us the right to accept those things of His that suit our desires, preferences and lifestyle and to reject all others - it simply doesn't work that way. When people practice such things they are in essence "creating God in their own image" and that is a no-no. Such practices (distorting or rejecting Scripture being one example) are, to God, sinful practices - plain and simple, end of story. Of course, many people do not accept this ruling. Not accepting it doesn't make it any less true.
 
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Jorge

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It's not our call and it's not our purpose to draw any kind of a "line" that we use to judge others Christians by.
Certainly not to judge, but to *correct*. If we see error (or sin) and do nothing - not even call it out or make an attempt at correction - then what good are we to others? How are we "the salt of the earth" if we do not "salt"? In such a case we are not good for anything except to be tossed out and trampled underfoot.
 
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Jorge

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"Inspiration" of Scripture is a thorny issue. I believe that the Scriptures are inspired, but I also reject the infallibility of Scripture. Infallibility is a canard; there is no way to establish "infallibility" or "inerrancy" apart from Scripture, so any attempt to demonstrate the same based on Scripture itself is an exercise in circular reasoning.

Moreover, the notion of inerrancy is bound to modern assumptions about historicity and literary criticism which, for all intents and purposes, were completely alien concepts to the writers and original audiences of the Scriptures. To demand that Scripture pass the "tests" of these criteria is self-contradictory.

The virgin birth, resurrection, and miracles of Jesus are tough as well. As miracles, they can *only* be appropriated as truth via faith; unfortunately, these concepts are often linked with really poor attempts at apologetics which misplace the onus of "belief" and substitute it with (surprise) the criteria of modern epistemologies.

Finally, the notion of Christ's death as "atonement for sin" is equally riddled with theological thorns; as there are dozens of atonement theologies extant in Christian history, which one is "the one" that a person must believe?



Frankly, that line is not for you (or I) to draw. Whether or not a person is reconciled with God has little or nothing to do with your narrow interpretation of their alignment with your beliefs.



Your interpretation of Scripture is a very thin measure of a person's relationship with God. You should spend your time focusing on your own salvation, and let God worry about others.
See my post # 9 to ClothedinGrace. See also my post # 8 to the original post.
 
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"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9

Romans is pretty clear on the topics of belief. Confess with your mouth that Jesus is God, then believe that God raised Christ from the dead. That's how you become saved. Most of that is pretty straight forward, my only confusion is what it means to believe something in your heart. What does it mean to believe something in your heart anyway?

Though there is something to be said for false doctrine, like theistic evolution. If we start butchering the Bible to 'fit' with man's ideas, it will no longer be the word of God but rather just the word of man. Eventually even the most sacred doctrines, involving Christ's death, burial and resurrection, could be tossed out for one reason or another.

Right doctrine doesn't save you, but wrong doctrine can lead you down a path that doesn't lead to salvation, as well as corrupt the paths of others to boot.
 
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Greg J.

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It's not our call and it's not our purpose to draw any kind of a "line" that we use to judge others Christians by.

Indeed.

The original poster may find it valuable to consider the Nicene creed. All you have to do is click on Statement of Faith in the upper-right corner of this page.

Helping other Christians understand better is good, but sharing what they should believe is not. Faith for salvation is a gift from God alone. It is God who does the saving, not what any person believes or professes to believe. If you want to help someone on the path, you can share what you believe if they are receptive. Either way ask God to lead them to the repentance that leads to life and the knowledge and beliefs for salvation. Live your life in such a way as people can see your light. Do not deny the Lord with your actions.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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When people practice such things they are in essence "creating God in their own image" and that is a no-no. Such practices (distorting or rejecting Scripture being one example) are, to God, sinful practices - plain and simple, end of story. Of course, many people do not accept this ruling. Not accepting it doesn't make it any less true.

But to claim that someone is "distorting the Scriptures" presupposes that there is a unified understanding of the whole of Scripture that is not open to debate. While there are certainly dogmatic formulations of proper theological belief (re: creeds, councilor pronouncements), interpretation of Scripture is still a difficult task, and is not immune to the subjectivity of mind. Therefore, one group's "distortion" is another's dogma, while the "errors" in another's thinking is often "the bible truth" to someone else. This historical church grappled (and continues to grapple) with this dynamic throughout its history, and often appealed to much more than the "scriptures alone" in determining the proper ways to think about God. But even in that regard, there is only a very thin layer of dogma within Christian orthodoxy, given the breadth of the Scriptures and human experience. This leaves an incredible amount of room for theological disagreement (but also theological innovation) without "distorting" the Scriptures.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Certainly not to judge, but to *correct*. If we see error (or sin) and do nothing - not even call it out or make an attempt at correction - then what good are we to others? How are we "the salt of the earth" if we do not "salt"? In such a case we are not good for anything except to be tossed out and trampled underfoot.

Let God correct, and let the Holy Spirit convict. Live your life to please God; that is more than enough salt.
 
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Jorge

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Let God correct, and let the Holy Spirit convict. Live your life to please God; that is more than enough salt.
What you say may sound good to you and to others but it is not Scriptural. We are called upon by God Himself to be "salt". You say "live your life to please God". Fine. Do you honestly believe that you will "please God" by being an inert watcher - allowing error and evil to propagate - while doing nothing? If so then you are deluding yourself. The perfect example is Christ. Show me one instance when Christ acted as a "vegetable", doing nothing in the presence of sin. Again, we do not *judge* but we must do *something*.
 
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Jorge

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But to claim that someone is "distorting the Scriptures" presupposes that there is a unified understanding of the whole of Scripture that is not open to debate. While there are certainly dogmatic formulations of proper theological belief (re: creeds, councilor pronouncements), interpretation of Scripture is still a difficult task, and is not immune to the subjectivity of mind. Therefore, one group's "distortion" is another's dogma, while the "errors" in another's thinking is often "the bible truth" to someone else. This historical church grappled (and continues to grapple) with this dynamic throughout its history, and often appealed to much more than the "scriptures alone" in determining the proper ways to think about God. But even in that regard, there is only a very thin layer of dogma within Christian orthodoxy, given the breadth of the Scriptures and human experience. This leaves an incredible amount of room for theological disagreement (but also theological innovation) without "distorting" the Scriptures.
Agreed, up to a certain point. There remains much Scripture that remains open to interpretation. But - and this is the main point - there is much that is crystal clear in its meaning *yet* receives alternate interpretations meant to satisfy personal desires. There are many examples. To wit: is the marriage of a man to a man okay with God? As per crystal clear Scripture, it is not. Yet even "Christian pastors" have interpreted Scripture in their own way and so perform the ceremony to marry a man to a man.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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What you say may sound good to you and to others but it is not Scriptural. We are called upon by God Himself to be "salt". You say "live your life to please God". Fine. Do you honestly believe that you will "please God" by being an inert watcher - allowing error and evil to propagate - while doing nothing? If so then you are deluding yourself. The perfect example is Christ. Show me one instance when Christ acted as a "vegetable", doing nothing in the presence of sin. Again, we do not *judge* but we must do *something*.

Ok, but what is the "something" we are supposed to do? Grasp political power in order to enforce a particular flavor of human morality? Compel others, by force, to live particular ways? Publicly condemn individuals who do not align with a particular understanding of "right" living? What are the limits and boundaries of the "something" you will do?
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Agreed, up to a certain point. There remains much Scripture that remains open to interpretation. But - and this is the main point - there is much that is crystal clear in its meaning *yet* receives alternate interpretations meant to satisfy personal desires. There are many examples. To wit: is the marriage of a man to a man okay with God? As per crystal clear Scripture, it is not. Yet even "Christian pastors" have interpreted Scripture in their own way and so perform the ceremony to marry a man to a man.

Crystal clear to you, but it is still interpretation based on the subjectivity of mind. More is needed (historical interpretation, ecumenical agreement, etc) to define something as "clear" beyond any individual or group's feelings about what the Scriptures say.
 
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shadowhunter

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"Obviously everyone who rejects Jesus is unsaved, but what about those who profess him yet distort and reject scripture? Can the Spirit of Truth be in a person who rejects the simple truths of Fundamentalism?"

That is an excellent, critically important question which, unfortunately, does not receive the attention that it should. The full answer is dissertation-length. The short answer is "no" for one basic reason: the God of Scripture is not a "partial" God, He is an "all-or-nothing" God. God does not give us the right to accept those things of His that suit our desires, preferences and lifestyle and to reject all others - it simply doesn't work that way. When people practice such things they are in essence "creating God in their own image" and that is a no-no. Such practices (distorting or rejecting Scripture being one example) are, to God, sinful practices - plain and simple, end of story. Of course, many people do not accept this ruling. Not accepting it doesn't make it any less true.

That is an excellent question, critically important question which, unfortunately, does not receive the attention that it should.
Fundamentalism recognizes that people are saved by and through the blood of Jesus at his will. Because he is not a respecter of persons, you cannot manipulate your statement of faith enough to get saved. Those saying otherwise are adding to the blood of Christ.

It is presumptuous to believe that as soon as someone is saved that they magically adhere to the beliefs of Fundamentalist statements of faith. Since people learn with time and study, they may currently believe many things different. Too often people are chased away from Fundamentalist churches for not having proper views rather than being taught from the scriptures.
 
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Jorge

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Ok, but what is the "something" we are supposed to do? Grasp political power in order to enforce a particular flavor of human morality? Compel others, by force, to live particular ways? Publicly condemn individuals who do not align with a particular understanding of "right" living? What are the limits and boundaries of the "something" you will do?
There is no "one-size-fits-all" answer to your question. I treat everything on a case-by-case basis - the particular circumstances and individuals all contribute to the overall situation. The main point remains: God will be displeased (rightfully so) if we - His followers - remain inert while wrongdoing and sin are happening around us. "By their fruits ye shall know them". If we display no fruits then what are we?
 
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