Fundamental contradiction

[lebensmaschine]

Hi there guys,

I’ve been on this forum before and have scoured some sections for answers to the questions I’ve bumped into on my long quest for some truth. This will be my first post here.

I have had a rigorous Christian upbringing but identify as seeking / atheistic at the moment. I have plenty of questions about the Christian faith and jesus, many of whom are already being addressed in similar threads.

What I’ve been wondering about for some time now is something that seems to be a fallacy of sorts in the ‘logic’ behind God’s message in the Bible: the question of accountability. If I’m not mistaken, the Bible makes a few consistent claims:

1) god is perfect

2) man is very, very imperfect by default, not through choice

3) the choice of believing or not believing in God lies with man (free will)

What’s the logic behind this? How am I supposed to make sense of this? God has never revealed Himself to me (don’t get started on the Bible - I’m not talking about some old book that just everyone could have written, I’m talking about observable happenings in my *very own* life and perception). I could get into this but will do so only if required, before this thread becomes an endless testimony of my personal disappointments.

Alright, given these three little assumptions, I have started to wonder how a PERFECT God can leave the decision that will decide over his/her soul’s ultimate faith to an IMPERFECT human being.

And what is free will, in this case? If someone holds a gun to my head and says: ‘You’re free to follow me because I’m infinitely superior to you, BUT if you don’t, I’ll murder you / burn you for all eternity’ - then how free am I? This is simply coercion and intimidation. Does this perfect God really need such rigorous methods?

Now, I have tried to become close with God, or to get to know Him better, but I’ve been praying for about fourteen years now (ever since I got clinically depressed when I was 14) and nothing’s happened.

So far, the Christian answer to these questions has been:

- you’re not looking good enough

- you’re not seeing him because you are sinful

- you don’t want to accept him / you’re too proud

Alright, let’s assume that all these things are true. Then what? If I AM sinful and fallen and inferior, according to Scripture, then naturally these things apply. So now I need Jesus the Almighty to help me - but He doesn’t do anything. And 14 years can be a long time. I’m beginning to open my eyes to the option that Jesus can’t be relied on. Virtually all the help I received along the way was from non-Christians and myself. God had nothing to do with their love for me since their love is an act of free will, independent of God - Who Himself decided to remain hidden and motionless.

I’m curious what your thoughts on the matter are.

And guys, you can throw as many Biblical passages at me as you want, but since I am currently seriously doubting the reliability of that very book it might not have the intended effect. I would like to hear answers that pertain to logic and reasoning, and I’m also interested in hearing about your personal subjective experiences, but simply quoting the Bible probably won’t do anything for you unless you can back it up with experience and proof.

 

[Faulty]

A. You don't understand a thing about the Bible. If you knew about it's prophetic claims, such a remark about anyone could have wrote it wouldn't have even crossed your mind.

B. Your analogy is a bit off. In your scenario, you'd be the one with the gun to your own head with your finger on the trigger.

If God had wanted mindless worshippers, He could have made some. If He wanted to seek pleasure in tormenting us forever, He could have just let us die in our sins without taking our sins upon Himself.

Also, don't suppose to know what God is doing in your life. You have no way of knowing, and he's not bound to do anything in the way you think He should.

 

[renewed21]

Hello

If God is not the answer then there is no meaning or purpose or truth in or of existence. The best any atheist can do is say that all meaning and purpose and truth comes from a singularity in space-time that all of a sudden started to expand.

If that is the "final curtain" then have at it.

Or there is a God who exists and all truth, meaning, and purpose come from Him and through Him.

 

[Sketcher]

What I’ve been wondering about for some time now is something that seems to be a fallacy of sorts in the ‘logic’ behind God’s message in the Bible: the question of accountability. If I’m not mistaken, the Bible makes a few consistent claims:

1) god is perfect

2) man is very, very imperfect by default, not through choice

3) the choice of believing or not believing in God lies with man (free will)

What’s the logic behind this? How am I supposed to make sense of this?

The better question is that you claim there is a fallacy here - where is it? I'm not seeing a breakdown in logic between these points so much as you disagreeing with their implications.

 

[Agnus|Dei]

Hi,

I think you've hit a very important question to that everyone should consider. It's good that you've brought it up.

If God wanted us to love him, why did he give us the choice to believe in him or not?

I'm still in the middle of my own Christian education, so I really don't know all the answers that have been offered. But, I think it goes like this.

Love cannot be love if it's not freely given. God gave us free will so we may love him freely. Remember that he made us in his own image, endowed us with reason and the ability to love.

I think perhaps we may never really know, as there are mysteries about God that as humans in our limited perceptions cannot comprehend.

 

[lebensmaschine]

Alright, I'll reply to these one by one so things don't get confusing.

@ Faulty:

You haven't addressed my point at all. My point is: why place the responsibility of eternal life or death in the hands of a creature that is fallible and prone to sin?

Apparently God does want mindless followers. Followers who never ever question His authority (which comes from a, IMO, very fallible book full of contradictions and cruelty) Followers who love him because otherwise, they'd end up in the Lake of Fire. That gun is in His hands, not mine. I can't make a 'free' choice if the result is everlasting torture - of course I'd opt for Heaven then! But what does Heaven mean? Being with an oppressive, contradictive, uncaring God?

You say that is he wanted to seek pleasure in torment, he would have let us die in sin. The funny thing is, that very sin isn't even our fault to begin with - we were all born with it. If I could opt for a life without sin, surely I'd do so. But the way things are now, I am:

1) born in sin
2) unable to save myself
3) completely depended on Jesus
4) finding out Jesus doesn't show Himself, or help me, or love me, BUT I still need to yield to His and God's authority in order not to be damned

Where's the logic in that?

 

[lebensmaschine]

@ Renewed 21:

What you make here is an assumption based on emotion and preference (ie without God there is no meaning) but this God doesn't live op to His Biblical promises. I don't get your reasoning on this: just because without something, life is meaningless, does that mean that that 'needed' thing exists? Is the need for God suddenly proof for God?

And you, too, haven't addressed my point. See the above reply, or if you care, read the first post again.

 

[lebensmaschine]

@ Sketcher: Alright, let me quote myself for you:

'Given these three little assumptions, I have started to wonder how a PERFECT God can leave the decision that will decide over his/her soul’s ultimate faith to an IMPERFECT human being.'

-- knowing full well it either results in eternal salvation or eternal damnation.

I have blindly obeyed God and read His Word for a long time. Then I started to think for myself and question His authority and the logic of the Bible. I don't see anything wrong with that. If God is as perfect as He claims, He will stand scrutiny. And if I'm not allowed to scrutinize or question Him, then He actually *does* want mindless followers. So when I scrutinize Him, His promises and His words don't hold up (I can post a link to a site listing a lot of contradictions in the Bible if you like). And I happen to rely on my own observations, not on vague assumptions and ancient promises. That being said, I also certainly don't consider myself flawless! I know I can be proud and stubborn. That's why I'm still interested in God and the faith. That's why I'm here - to learn about your opinion. I hope something reasonable will turn up.

@ Agnus Dei: thanks. You say 'love cannot be love it's not freely given.' I completely agree with you. So my questions is: how free is love that, when unanswered, ends up in eternal torment? I do not at all feel free to love God. I feel coerced.

That being said: God's ways are mysterious. Ah. I almost forgot. I'm sorry to say this, but if His ways are mysterious and His Word inconsistent, why am I to believe in Him? Ah yes, because otherwise I'll go to hell. Right.

 

[bling]

Here is the logic behind it:
If there is a Creator of the universe, he has been around for a very long time, is extremely powerful, extremely smart and would have by now either become ultimately evil or ultimately good. Since “ultimately evil” is not suggested by any “religion” and does not explain “good” in the world, ultimately good should be explored first.

The ultimately good god would be totally unselfish, sacrificial, and compelled by His Love to do all that He did.

So how would that help explain everything that has and is happening?

This God would not need anything and would not be trying to get humans to do anything, but would want to give the greatest and most powerful gift He could give to them.

This God would be forced by His love to create beings that could Love like He Loves, not for his own sake but for the sake of those that would Love like He loves (He is totally unselfish). Love being the greatest and most powerful gift He could give (since Love compels Him to do all He does).

If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

God is not trying to trying to get us to do something, but is trying to give us the most powerful force in all universes if we will just accept the gift as it was given (charity). Having Godly Love is having the most powerful force in all universes.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.

There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

 

[lebensmaschine]

''If there is a Creator of the universe, he has been around for a very long time, is extremely powerful, extremely smart and would have by now either become ultimately evil or ultimately good.''

What do you base this on? Is this a proven fact or just an assumption you make?

So what if He is ultimately evil? You said that since that isn't suggested by any of the world religions good needs to be explored first. But then you only explore good and not evil.

If He is so powerful, I seem to be missing out on an entire show! He could help those in need, save the struggling and the suffering, yet somehow that never seems to happen. Is that because we are sinful and deserve the suffering? If so, then is God really all that loving? It sounds more like vengeful, perfectionistic and cruel to me. Especially since we are *born* in sin, we don't get to choose.

Also, there seems to be an option that God just doesn't care. He helps no one visibly. Why is that? There are no reported, documented happenings of miracles. Or do you have proof of that? Sight restored, limbs regrowing, the dead walking, the lame running? Isn't all possible by God? Yet He seems to watch us suffer without doing anything. If you say this is because we are sinful, then I ask you again: what can we do about being sinful? Nothing. The only way seems to be through his Son, if I'm not mistaking the Christian message. But that Son doesn't do anything. See the loophole?

My question remains the same, and as far as I can see your post does not answer it: why place the fate of an entire existence in the hands of an imperfect, fallible, prone to sin creature? Why not love all of your creation and forgive them by default, as they are also sinful by default?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If I’m not mistaken, the Bible makes a few consistent claims:

You are mistaken. Many of the 'claims' are inferred by the reader.

1) god is perfect

A biblically true statement but unprovable humanly speaking. For example, if God loves with perfect love, He hates with perfect hate as well. Everything he sets his hand to he does perfectly. As human we just don't understand it.

2) man is very, very imperfect by default, not through choice

This was purposely designed by God and is a true statement. The problem is that few want to believe it. By God's perfect standands we are pretty imperfect. Man's history pretty much bears this out.

3) the choice of believing or not believing in God lies with man (free will)

This is false. God draws or calls those he desires to believe and worship him.

What’s the logic behind this?

When you understand God's supreme purpose it all makes sense, although no human will understand everything. God gives us a lifetime to find out though, so we shouldn't waste it.

 

[Sketcher]

@ Sketcher: Alright, let me quote myself for you:

'Given these three little assumptions, I have started to wonder how a PERFECT God can leave the decision that will decide over his/her soul’s ultimate faith to an IMPERFECT human being.'

-- knowing full well it either results in eternal salvation or eternal damnation.

By giving us free will, that's easy. I'm not sure of the contradiction or fallacy that you're seeing here.

So when I scrutinize Him, His promises and His words don't hold up (I can post a link to a site listing a lot of contradictions in the Bible if you like). And I happen to rely on my own observations, not on vague assumptions and ancient promises.

Rather than post a link to some pre-contrived arguments which may or may not agree with your own observations (and which often rely on vague assumptions), what are some observations in your own life that would seem to contradict what the Bible says about God?

 

[lebensmaschine]

I'm not talking about pre-contrived 'arguments'. I'm talking about a fairly objective list that states contradictions in the Bible. What follows from there is subjective, of course.

Two main observations make me doubt the verity of God's existence especially:

- His unwillingness to show Himself or reveal His presence to me - why would I believe in someone I cannot see, feel, hear, observe or the like? If the answer is 'faith', then every book in the world claiming the existence of some God ought to be taken into consideration.

- His unwillingness to heal those in need. As I said, there is no proof for the existence of faith healing. And He leaves me to my own devices in my own personal struggles with depression, among other things.

That being said, I find it hard to believe in a loving God after Auschwitz. But that's a personal obsession of mine.

 

[lebensmaschine]

Concerning the nature of the Bible: there are numerous verses saying how God will heal the weak and helpless, how miracles exist and how God is just. I do not see how I can reconcile the notion of 'God is Love' with the horrendous things going on on this wretched planet.

 

[elman]

1) god is perfect

I believe if there is a Creator it would be much closer to perfection than its creation.

2) man is very, very imperfect by default, not through choice

I believe we are imperfect because of our imperfect choices. I agree none of us can live perfect lives.

3) the choice of believing or not believing in God lies with man (free will)

I believe we can chose to believe in the existence of God and we can chose to obey the command of God to love others.

What’s the logic behind this? How am I supposed to make sense of this? God has never revealed Himself to me (don’t get started on the Bible - I’m not talking about some old book that just everyone could have written, I’m talking about observable happenings in my *very own* life and perception).

Until I was about twenty four I believed that God had not revealed Himself to me. Than I saw that what was occuring was not reasonably explained by coincidence. Once I accepted the possibilty that somethings did not occur by coincidence, I could remember many things that had occured before I was twenty four that was obviously orchestrated by God.

Alright, given these three little assumptions, I have started to wonder how a PERFECT God can leave the decision that will decide over his/her soul’s ultimate faith to an IMPERFECT human being.

How could a loving God not allow us to have the ability to become loving creatures in His image? Why would God be obligated to give eternal life to the wicked?--the ones who chose not to become loving beings.

And what is free will, in this case? If someone holds a gun to my head and says: ‘You’re free to follow me because I’m infinitely superior to you, BUT if you don’t, I’ll murder you / burn you for all eternity’ - then how free am I? This is simply coercion and intimidation. Does this perfect God really need such rigorous methods?

I do not see reality that way. I see a loving Creator that gifted us with temporary life and the ability to become loving people. If we do, God will grace us with the gift of eternal life. There is no burn for all eternity. That is a man made idea. I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but the bible refers more to the death of the wicked than to their continual eternal life. Romans says the wages of sin is death--not burn forever. Ezekiel 18 says the wicked shall die and not live.

Now, I have tried to become close with God, or to get to know Him better, but I’ve been praying for about fourteen years now (ever since I got clinically depressed when I was 14) and nothing’s happened.

I can only refer to my experiences. When I thought nothing had happened, I later realized things had happened but I had dismissed them.

So far, the Christian answer to these questions has been:

- you’re not looking good enough

- you’re not seeing him because you are sinful

- you don’t want to accept him / you’re too proud

I am not saying any of these. Perhaps you are unwilling to be open to the possibility as I was at one time. Perhaps there are other explanations of which I am unaware.

Alright, let’s assume that all these things are true. Then what? If I AM sinful and fallen and inferior, according to Scripture, then naturally these things apply. So now I need Jesus the Almighty to help me - but He doesn’t do anything. And 14 years can be a long time. I’m beginning to open my eyes to the option that Jesus can’t be relied on. Virtually all the help I received along the way was from non-Christians and myself. God had nothing to do with their love for me since their love is an act of free will, independent of God - Who Himself decided to remain hidden and motionless.

Some of my experiences were invoving other people showing their love and concern for me. Why would you assume God had nothing to do with people showing love and concern for people? Yes they have free will, but I believe God has written on all human hearts that love and concern for others is a good thing and therefore anytime someone choses to do what they know to be the right thing--God is involved.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And He leaves me to my own devices in my own personal struggles with depression, among other things.

If you have depression problem I suggest suspending thinking about anything that is distressing to you. In a severe case I once heard of the doctors taking away all religious material from a person who was obsessing on it.

 

[elman]

Concerning the nature of the Bible: there are numerous verses saying how God will heal the weak and helpless, how miracles exist and how God is just. I do not see how I can reconcile the notion of 'God is Love' with the horrendous things going on on this wretched planet.

It is obvious to me this planet is not heaven. I have no explanation for the reason that so much suffering is part of this life. I believe I can offer a partial or possible explanation for the suffering that is caused by the evil men do. I see God desiring people who are capable of responding to His love with love, but love is a choice and in order to be able to chose love, God has to give us the ability to chose not love or even harm of others. That results in a world such as ours in which we can chose to hurt someone instead of love them. If God prevent our hurting anyone, how then could our choice to love them be our choice?

 

[elman]

This is false. God draws or calls those he desires to believe and worship him.

God desires that everyone turn from wickedness to righteousness. There is none that God does not call to repent---Luke 13:3

 

[Publius]

Alright, I'll reply to these one by one so things don't get confusing.

@ Faulty:

You haven't addressed my point at all. My point is: why place the responsibility of eternal life or death in the hands of a creature that is fallible and prone to sin?

Well, so much for "I had a rigorous Christian upbringing". Funny how every atheist who comes here says that and yet, none of them know anything about Christian doctrine.

The Bible, since you obviously never learned basic Christian doctrine during your "rigorous Christian upbringing", doesn't say that the responsibility of eternal life is in our hands, but is in Christ's hands. He is the one who procured it, He is the one who calls those who will be saved, He is the one who sends the Holy Spirit to regenerate the unregenerate, He is the one who grants salvation, and He is the one who holds our salvation.

If I could opt for a life without sin, surely I'd do so.

Why?

 

[lebensmaschine]

I'll be off to a friend for a couple of days. Thank you for your replies. I will respond to them asap.