Fundamental challenge

[RMDY]

It is legal in massachusetts for same sex couples to marry. Thus no fornication.

Oh PS Just 1 person who has changed, thats all I aske of ye.

So? It is illegal in most of the world to allow same-sex couples to marry. But I am not deducing my idea of fornication around that idea. It would be improper for us to deduce our ideas of fornication based on the laws of one country. The reason why I chose to deduce my idea of fornication by according to what I believe Jesus said and upon the history of Israel is because Israel was a nation that was born out of laws given by God himself and from God bringing them out of Egypt, which is a unique way to become a nation.

 

[Ohioprof]

So? It is illegal in most of the world to allow same-sex couples to marry. But I am not deducing my idea of fornication around that idea. It would be improper for us to deduce our ideas of fornication based on the laws of one country. The reason why I chose to deduce my idea of fornication by according to what I believe Jesus said and upon the history of Israel is because Israel was a nation that was born out of laws given by God himself and from God bringing them out of Egypt, which is a unique way to become a nation.

Here is something interesting about Israel. While the state of Israel does not recognize as legal same-sex marriages performed in Israel, the state does recognize as legal same-sex marriages performed outside Israel. On November 21, 2006, Israel's Supreme Court ordered the government to recognize same-sex marriages performed abroad. This ruling entitles same-sex married couples who were married in other countries to the rights of marriage under Israeli law.

 

[Ohioprof]

I beg to differ concerning your post:



For example, Corinthians13 is a good example:

"4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Here is an example of a kind of love that goes against Jesus teachings: fornication. My girlfriend may want me to "love" her in the way that she wants me to, but that kind of love is immoral if I am not married. Although others in society accept it as moral, it is unethical for a Christian to express that kind of love outside of marriage.



If you love someone who is in trouble, would you not be concerned to help them? If your christian brother commits murder, will you not tell him it is wrong and use the Word of God to back it up or would you just sit back and not rebuke him because your don't want to "judge" him.

Ohioprof, if a fellow Christian says to you that he loves to commit fornication with a woman and finds nothing wrong with it, I doubt you would sit back and say nothing.

Ohioprof, if your Christian friend hated another Christian and wouldn't forgive that person for a wrong, I doubt you wouldn't rebuke him, in fact, I would expect you to say something to him about his behavior because you love him.

If a Christian man said that he loves to have sex with a woman outside of marriage, I would certainly NOT say anything against this, as it is not my business. If someone wants to have a sexual relationship outside of marriage, that's not my concern. They have the right to do that, and I am not going to tell them what to do. Only if someone is harming another person would I say or do anything. People have the right to have sex with a consenting adult, and I do not believe in intruding one their lives or their privacy and trying to impose my moral beliefs on them. So I would say nothing. If a Christian friend hated another Christian, or even a non-Christian, I would certainly not "rebuke" him or her. Who am I to "rebuke" anybody over a personal disagreement? I would probably talk with my friend, if he or she wanted to talk, about this and work with them to figure out the situation and a way for both parties to get beyond it. I might recommend that my friend talk with our minister about this. I would never presume to "rebuke" my friend. It's not my business, and I don't believe in telling other people what to do with their personal lives that way. Being gay is not being in trouble. It's just being gay. I am gay. I do not need "help," and I don't appreciate people telling me that there is something wrong with who I am. People in my church would never tell gay people that there is something wrong with being gay. People in my church accept gay people as we are. Our minister is gay, btw. We hired her knowing that.

 

[RMDY]

Here is something interesting about Israel. While the state of Israel does not recognize as legal same-sex marriages performed in Israel, the state does recognize as legal same-sex marriages performed outside Israel. On November 21, 2006, Israel's Supreme Court ordered the government to recognize same-sex marriages performed abroad. This ruling entitles same-sex married couples who were married in other countries to the rights of marriage under Israeli law.

At this present time Israel is mostly secular so I reject what the Supreme Court says.

 

[Ohioprof]

At this present time Israel is mostly secular so I reject what the Supreme Court says.

Well, you can do that. A secular government is the best way to ensure religious liberty for all.

 

[DesignerNate]

I totally relate to this post! For years I have tried to go from Gay to Straight, and I have just continually failed. I'm not saying I'm fully done exploring the issue but your frustration is my frustration! I just feel that If God truly loved and cared about us then why aren't more ex-gay men/women coming out and telling their story of transformation? Does God particularity want Gay people to suffer? And if God truly transformed these ex-gay people then why aren't they proclaiming the truth and letting it be known! Now maybe its just because the first criteria of being Gay only effects a small amount of the population to begin with, so their is even a smaller percentage of people who want to change their orientation, however to me this doesn't seem valid.

One individual can do a lot of good. Now I think the biggest thing that the individual might face is a lot of persecution from people who are unwilling to hear what their story is, as well as it would be difficult to truly know if the person was being fully truthful (for example, they could proclaim some powerful message about transformation, but in truth they haven't changed at all). Tough issue and I hope that we can either get more ex-gay testimonies to either be heard or recognize and if it is truly the work of God let hope that those stories start to transform individual's lives.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I totally relate to this post! For years I have tried to go from Gay to Straight, and I have just continually failed. I'm not saying I'm fully done exploring the issue but your frustration is my frustration! I just feel that If God truly loved and cared about us then why aren't more ex-gay men/women coming out and telling their story of transformation? Does God particularity want Gay people to suffer? And if God truly transformed these ex-gay people then why aren't they proclaiming the truth and letting it be known! Now maybe its just because the first criteria of being Gay only effects a small amount of the population to begin with, so their is even a smaller percentage of people who want to change their orientation, however to me this doesn't seem valid.

One individual can do a lot of good. Now I think the biggest thing that the individual might face is a lot of persecution from people who are unwilling to hear what their story is, as well as it would be difficult to truly know if the person was being fully truthful (for example, they could proclaim some powerful message about transformation, but in truth they haven't changed at all). Tough issue and I hope that we can either get more ex-gay testimonies to either be heard or recognize and if it is truly the work of God let hope that those stories start to transform individual's lives.

I tried to solicit such responses through my post "Fundamental Challenge" But the silence was deafening. The usual crowd that wield their verbal nightsticks, were none to be found.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Monogamy does not = marriage.

Jesus speaks about not only marriage, but also of divorce making it clear that marriage is a Sacramental and legal- and Jesus only places it in the context as being between a man and a woman. In the NT we know that Jesus attended marriage ceremonies- since there is no record of any Judaic marriages between members of the same sex- the implication is obvious.

Maybe he had a conflict with the dates set for the same sex marriages.

Or maybe they had enough wine so he didn’t feel he needed to go

 

[BigBadWlf]

Accepting homosexuality as moral within Christ is moving on to the wrong road and people need to set the clock back to the right time.

Don’t you find it ironic that you are using Jesus and the concept of morality to justify prejudice and discrimination?

 

[BigBadWlf]

I beg to differ concerning your post:



For example, Corinthians13 is a good example:

"4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Can you explain how the promotion of prejudice and discrimination is an example of love?

If you love someone who is in trouble, would you not be concerned to help them? If your christian brother commits murder, will you not tell him it is wrong and use the Word of God to back it up or would you just sit back and not rebuke him because your don't want to "judge" him.

Can you explain why it is “loving” to falsely compare an entire minority to murderers

Ohioprof, if a fellow Christian says to you that he loves to commit fornication with a woman and finds nothing wrong with it, I doubt you would sit back and say nothing.

If a Christian says to you that he loves to discriminate black people and commit fight against racial equality and finds nothing wrong with it and can even cite the bible in his defense would you support him?

Ohioprof, if your Christian friend hated another Christian and wouldn't forgive that person for a wrong, I doubt you wouldn't rebuke him, in fact, I would expect you to say something to him about his behavior because you love him.

Which is what Ohioprof is doing…yet you just argue with her

 

[onemessiah]

I would like to cut to the chase, and challenge those that often repeat that there are many "Exgays" and that testimonies on "Exgay" websites, prove it so.

Well the challenge is to invite an individual, who was primarily Homosexual (lets , say at least an 8 on a continuim of 1-10. where a 1 is 100% Heterosexual and a 10, is 100% Homosexual) to at least a 2 on the same continuim.

So the challenge is to have an "Exgay" who has been miracuously transformed from gay to straight, come and give a testimony. The one restriction, is that they would have to have been Gay, not bisexual.

If being gay is so wrong, certainly there must be at least 1 willing to answer a few questions.

Let me preface by saying that this is an outstanding topic for a thread.

Unfortunately, those exgay site are hogwash, and furthermore, YOU WILL NEVER GET TO SPEAK TO A LEGITIMATE EX-GAY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT EXIST.

Copy/Paste from the American Psychological Association website-


Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?

No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.
However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.

What About So-Called "Conversion Therapies"?

Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention. The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association's Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology's opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client's right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias.

 

[Phinehas2]

Well I dont know about therapy, but I know I believe the testimonies of those who says Jesus Christ has changed them .

 

[BigBadWlf]

Well I dont know about therapy, but I know I believe the testimonies of those who says Jesus Christ has changed them .

Do you believe the testimonies of people who claim UFO’s routinely kidnap them and perform medical experiments on them?

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear BigBAdwlf,
No, do you?
I know that Jesus Christ changed my life and changes the life of everyone who comes to know Him as Lord. He changes His followers in the ways He says He will.
UFO's isnt a part of that, sexual imoorality is.

 

[InHisSpirit]

Well, here and I am compelled to tell you my story. I grew up very butch I had an attraction to women at an early age and struggled very hard growing up in a Southern Baptist Church. I knew it was wrong. Every sex related dream I have ever and still have are about women. I entered into the lifestyle right after high school and feel deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We went our separate ways for college trying to visit and keep in touch but time and space ended our relationship. I remained single through the rest of college. I had become a Christian at college and was struggling really hard with myself and my identity. I still dressed butch through college too. I prayed constantly. I struggled so hard. I turned to other Christian women to help me through it. I prayed some more. I accepted that I would never be able to be in another homosexual relationship and be the woman God intended me to be. It was very hard and a few years later I met a Christian man who loved me. He knows about my past and doesn't care. He knows about my dreams and doesn't care. I find him very sexy and handsome and we have a very healthy marriage. He was my gift from God. We have two sons and I love them all deeply. Even though I still catch myself thinking thoughts or still having the dreams I have no desire for anyone other than my husband. Just like men who are married and still look, I am the same way. But God has given me such a great support system. No Christian that I confided in judged me or was mean. They helped me and guided me. Without them I know I would still be struggling. God sent the right people at the right time for me. So that this testimony can be given. I am a NEW CREATION in my rebirth. Though it was a tough road I have arrived.

Any questions?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Dear BigBAdwlf,
No, do you?

Why do you reject the testimonies of those claiming to have been kidnapped by aliens while at the same time embracing the testimonies of people who claim to have changed sexual orientation?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Well, here and I am compelled to tell you my story. I grew up very butch I had an attraction to women at an early age and struggled very hard growing up in a Southern Baptist Church. I knew it was wrong. Every sex related dream I have ever and still have are about women. I entered into the lifestyle right after high school and feel deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We went our separate ways for college trying to visit and keep in touch but time and space ended our relationship. I remained single through the rest of college. I had become a Christian at college and was struggling really hard with myself and my identity. I still dressed butch through college too. I prayed constantly. I struggled so hard. I turned to other Christian women to help me through it. I prayed some more. I accepted that I would never be able to be in another homosexual relationship and be the woman God intended me to be. It was very hard and a few years later I met a Christian man who loved me. He knows about my past and doesn't care. He knows about my dreams and doesn't care. I find him very sexy and handsome and we have a very healthy marriage. He was my gift from God. We have two sons and I love them all deeply. Even though I still catch myself thinking thoughts or still having the dreams I have no desire for anyone other than my husband. Just like men who are married and still look, I am the same way. But God has given me such a great support system. No Christian that I confided in judged me or was mean. They helped me and guided me. Without them I know I would still be struggling. God sent the right people at the right time for me. So that this testimony can be given. I am a NEW CREATION in my rebirth. Though it was a tough road I have arrived.

Any questions?

You indicate you are not now a heterosexual

Are you claiming you were a homosexual?


And what in the world does clothing have to do with sexual orientation?

 

[Uphill Battle]

I would like to cut to the chase, and challenge those that often repeat that there are many "Exgays" and that testimonies on "Exgay" websites, prove it so.

Well the challenge is to invite an individual, who was primarily Homosexual (lets , say at least an 8 on a continuim of 1-10. where a 1 is 100% Heterosexual and a 10, is 100% Homosexual) to at least a 2 on the same continuim.

So the challenge is to have an "Exgay" who has been miracuously transformed from gay to straight, come and give a testimony. The one restriction, is that they would have to have been Gay, not bisexual.

If being gay is so wrong, certainly there must be at least 1 willing to answer a few questions.

best of luck to you. I'm fairly sure that people don't keep a logbook of how their Gayness or lack thereof rates on your slide rule.

besides which, even if you get numerous testimonies, you will

1) not convince you one Iota

and

2) will likely be downplayed as "not genuinely Gay"

so the so called challenge is rather moot.

You indicate you are not now a heterosexual

Are you claiming you were a homosexual?


And what in the world does clothing have to do with sexual orientation?

case in point.

 

[InHisSpirit]

I am saying I have no desires for anyone other than my husband. That would be heterosexual. I grew up believing I was homosexual and had homosexual relationships. that changed when I because a Christian, it was difficult but I changed. The Holy Spirit convicted me and I changed. I have not had any homosexual relationships since I became a Christian. I felt the conviction, I prayed and struggled, I leaned on my fellow Christians, and now I am married and love my MAN!

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Well, here and I am compelled to tell you my story. I grew up very butch I had an attraction to women at an early age and struggled very hard growing up in a Southern Baptist Church. I knew it was wrong. Every sex related dream I have ever and still have are about women. I entered into the lifestyle right after high school and feel deeply in love with a wonderful woman. We went our separate ways for college trying to visit and keep in touch but time and space ended our relationship. I remained single through the rest of college. I had become a Christian at college and was struggling really hard with myself and my identity. I still dressed butch through college too. I prayed constantly. I struggled so hard. I turned to other Christian women to help me through it. I prayed some more. I accepted that I would never be able to be in another homosexual relationship and be the woman God intended me to be. It was very hard and a few years later I met a Christian man who loved me. He knows about my past and doesn't care. He knows about my dreams and doesn't care. I find him very sexy and handsome and we have a very healthy marriage. He was my gift from God. We have two sons and I love them all deeply. Even though I still catch myself thinking thoughts or still having the dreams I have no desire for anyone other than my husband. Just like men who are married and still look, I am the same way. But God has given me such a great support system. No Christian that I confided in judged me or was mean. They helped me and guided me. Without them I know I would still be struggling. God sent the right people at the right time for me. So that this testimony can be given. I am a NEW CREATION in my rebirth. Though it was a tough road I have arrived.

Any questions?

I won't judge you. I think thats great . I do have one question that always bothers me about those that say they have been transformed from Homosexual to Heterosexual.

I knew it was wrong. Every sex related dream I have ever and still have are about women

What does that mean ? for me myself, it would mean that I am repressing my feelings. So if your still primarily attracted to Woman, than I am not sure about the whole conversion thing. Just a question.

I know some will say that I am insisting your wrong, but this aspect troubles me.