Fully Mature Universe

[PastorKeith]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

 

[Vambram]

I am a born again Christian who has continued to believe for well over 40 years in a literal interpretation of Genesis chapters 1-3. I believe that young earth creationism is the best and the most accurate interpretation of all of the various passages of Scripture written about God's creation.

 

[AlexB23]

I am a born again Christian who has continued to believe for well over 40 years in a literal interpretation of Genesis chapters 1-3. I believe that young earth creationism is the best and the most accurate interpretation of all of the various passages of Scripture written about God's creation.

Ooh, I am an Old-Earth Creationist (OEC), but regardless of Earth's age, God made the universe, and His creation reveals awesome power (Romans 1:20, Psalm 19:1). Plus, an old Earth makes me appreciate how old God is, as His age is infinite. 4.5 billion years is 0% of God's infinite age. But hey, it does not matter the age of the Earth, all that matters is that we believe in Jesus, that He died for our sins (John 3:16-18, Romans 5:8 and plenty of other verses), and will come again in the End Days (Hebrews 9:28, Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 1:7).

This Christian professor believes in an old Earth cos the Hebrew word "Yom" could mean an unspecified unit of time (such as an era):

Our Old Earth: Arguments for Billions of Years

Scientific evidence from several disciplines suggests that our universe and earth are old — even billions of years old. What might Christians make of such evidence?

www.desiringgod.org

 

[PastorKeith]

Ooh, I am an Old-Earth Creationist (OEC), but regardless of Earth's age, God made the universe, and His creation reveals awesome power (Romans 1:20, Psalm 19:1). Plus, an old Earth makes me appreciate how old God is, as His age is infinite. 4.5 billion years is 0% of God's infinite age. But hey, it does not matter the age of the Earth, all that matters is that we believe in Jesus, that He died for our sins (John 3:16-18, Romans 5:8 and plenty of other verses), and will come again in the End Days (Hebrews 9:28, Matthew 24:42-44, Revelation 1:7).

This Christian professor believes in an old Earth cos the Hebrew word "Yom" could mean an unspecified unit of time (such as an era):

Our Old Earth: Arguments for Billions of Years

Scientific evidence from several disciplines suggests that our universe and earth are old — even billions of years old. What might Christians make of such evidence?

www.desiringgod.org

My only concern with an old Earth perspective Professor is this: IF, and I say if, because I am unsure of your full perspective, but if smaller life forms evolved on an ancient Earth before the rise of Mankind in Adam, then death and dying was present long before sin entered the world, rendering the Bible in error. Or, perhaps you believe only the Earth and the universe took a very long time to form, but Man was created out of dust instantly? There are so many views, I don't want to assign you one you may not hold.

 

[AlexB23]

My only concern with an old Earth perspective Professor is this: IF, and I say if, because I am unsure of your full perspective, but if smaller life forms evolved on an ancient Earth before the rise of Mankind in Adam, then death and dying was present long before sin entered the world, rendering the Bible in error. Or, perhaps you believe only the Earth and the universe took a very long time to form, but Man was created out of dust instantly? There are so many views, I don't want to assign you one you may not hold.

I do see your point, however, I believe that when Adam and Eve sinned, death entered the world, but not only after Adam and Eve (~5000 BC), but throughout the entire timeline, a form of retrocausality. Another possible theory is that only humans are granted infinite life, but as Adam and Eve sinned, then humans were cursed. But hey, I am not a theologian.

For myself, I believe the second, in bold, that only the Earth and universe took a long time to form, but humans were created instantly by God, or granted a spirit by God around ~5000 BC, plus or minus a few thousand years.

My guy @RocksInMyHead is a Christian geologist, and he believes in an old Earth, as geology predicts an old Earth.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

As I have told some relatives, who, when I said that God is fully capable of instantly creating a 15-billion-year-old universe, they said that would be God lying. I answered, here we write stories and devise theories of time travel and time manipulation and congratulate ourselves on our cleverness, but we can't allow the one who INVENTED time to do what he will with it???

Truth is, while I don't trust the scientific community to quite get things right, I do believe it is very possible for God to make it all in 6 days, from one point-of-view, but from another point-of-view, 15 billion years old. If the cosmologists and physicists have hammered nothing else, they certainly have made it plain that they believe time and space are relative and not linear or equal from all points!

 

[ozso]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

Makes sense to me. It would certainly explain a lot. I've gone with this premise for a number of years.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

I guess the real question is....where did the " dust" come from? Science agrees with our Creator that all things are created from dust aka, stellar nucleosynthesis, His creation. Additionally, why would God break His own rules? Why would adherence to the laws of nature be weak? It really has no bearing on His Majesty on how He formed everything out out "dust". Whether it was over time or instantly , He is our Creator and has given us a path to know Him.
Blessings.

 

[PastorKeith]

I guess the real question is....where did the " dust" come from?
Blessings.

Dust comes from Day 2 of creation

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

 

[PastorKeith]

Additionally, why would God break His own rules?

The laws of nature are not "God's rules" they are mankind's attempt to make sense of His creation. If they were His rules, they would be in the Bible. Instead we have clear text that says the creation event was Supernatural... that transpired over six earth days.

 

[PastorKeith]

Why would adherence to the laws of nature be weak?

Because God is Supernatural
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Certainly God can do things, by what we understand as the laws of nature, but he certainly wouldn't be bound by them.
And why would God go through so much trouble to make the creation event look like 6 supernatural days, if He really waited Billions of years between events? The only reason we are debating this topic, is because people think men in white lab coats and text books have more authority than the God of the universe and His Word.

 

[AlexB23]

Guys, could the 6 days be the length of time that passes in heaven, while billions of years pass on Earth?

 

[Vambram]

Guys, could the 6 days be the length of time that passes in heaven, while billions of years pass on Earth?

That is one possibility.
However, I do believe that there are multitude of passages of Scripture teach the YEC doctrines.

 

[AlexB23]

That is one possibility.
However, I do believe that there are multitude of passages of Scripture teach the YEC doctrines.

And that is understandable. And hey, we may not agree on everything, and if we all agreed, the world would be a pretty bland place. But yes, the Hebrew word "Yom" could mean 24 hours, or an unspecified duration of time.

If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, it makes the 2000 year period of time from when Jesus saved humanity to now even more special. Why would God need to create such an old universe for a 2000 year sliver of time for His Son to save us? It goes to show how God has infinite patience, and holds His love for humans deeply in His heart, even though 13.8 billion years (age of the universe) is 0 milliseconds from God's point of view, as He is beyond time. If creation is only 6000 years old, it makes God's age seem less impressive, as 6000 years is only 75x longer than the lifespan of a person who lives to 80 years. However, 13.8 billion years is 172.5 million times the average lifespan of a human.

However, for me, an Old Earth makes me appreciate the scale and size of God's Creation even more. It is like stepping into a 14th century cathedral, with the high ceilings, and the old art that reveals the architect's plans, just as the universe reveals God's plans. Plus hey, science and scripture can compliment each other, as Psalm 111:2 states. God reveals His hands in miracles on Earth, as well as His Creation.

Hugh Ross is a Canadian scientist who is a Christian that believes in OEC, and where a day means an unspecified unit of time:

Hugh Ross (astrophysicist) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The laws of nature are not "God's rule

I disagree. Nature is in perfect obedience adhering to God's will, His law. God did not give this to humans. We have a choice and therfore needed a written set of rules to go by.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Dust comes from Day 2 of creation

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

God created light on the first day. Light has photons . We have photons in our body in small amounts so we are part of the first day creation.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Because God is Supernatural
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Certainly God can do things, by what we understand as the laws of nature, but he certainly wouldn't be bound by them.
And why would God go through so much trouble to make the creation event look like 6 supernatural days, if He really waited Billions of years between events? The only reason we are debating this topic, is because people think men in white lab coats and text books have more authority than the God of the universe and His Word.

Supernatural can still be natural. God is natural not unnatural therefore His supernatural actions are actually natural to Him. Its OK if God supernaturally followed a natural course of events. It is in His will not to cause confusion. Young earth is confusing therefore why not adhere to His creation as it unfolds through discovery. Why some reject it, I'll never understand.

 

[public hermit]

We might as well ask: Could the universe have come into existence last Thursday? Or, could God have created all that we know as life in this world last Thursday? There's no reason to assume God could not create everything fully mature, with memories and histories, just last Thursday. In terms of power, that is not impossible for God to do. But does that make sense given what we understand?

Whether God could create a mature universe is not an interesting question. Obviously, God can. But, whether God did create a mature universe depends on the witnesses and evidence that we have. All of those witnesses and evidence taken together, and then coupled with the idea that the universe is only a few thousand years old, seems hard to swallow. All of variables that point to an old earth would have to be glaringly wrong, and they are not so obviously wrong.

But I digress, none of this would be an issue if we read spiritual texts for the spiritual import they are trying to communicate. It doesn't matter if one believes Adam was a historical figure so much as what spiritual truths one grasps about God, humanity, and the world from the texts. You can believe the Genesis accounts of creation are a one-for-one historical fact, but if you don't grasp those spiritual claims about God, humanity, and the world then your belief doesn't matter much. I Believe Billy Holiday is the greatest Jazz singer of all time. So what? It's a mere belief that has no real import for what or who I am.

What is the spiritual import of the Genesis accounts?
-God exists
-Creation is not God and it is brought to be by God
-Creation is an orderly process
-Creation is good
-The divine intention is for goodness
-Humanity is created in the divine image
-Humans choose against God and their own good
-Human choices bring destruction
-Humans need divine intervention (grace)
-God redeems the human condition and secures creation and life (protoevangelium)

These are spiritual claims that we find in the creation accounts, and they have nothing to do with science or history. These are spiritual realities for spiritual people. Not every book in the Bible is a gospel, and even the gospels are not history in the modern sense. But, importantly, all of these claims can be true even if the accounts are not historical verities. God can communicate truth through many means, including ancient myths.

 

[d taylor]

Many Christians freely accept that Adam was created from dust, into a fully mature adult human male, yet stop short of accepting that God created a fully mature universe for him to exist in, which includes light from stars millions of light years away. A God that is so weak He has to adhere to the very "rules of nature" that He created, is unworthy of admiration in my estimation, and certainly not the God of the Bible. What say you?

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No where does The Bible state God created a universe where the sun, moon and stars are in an outer space millions to billions of miles and light years away from earth.

The Bible states God created heaven(s) and the earth and placed the sun, moon and stars in The raqia between to bodies of water.

The creation of a universe is a scientific creation lie.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Additionally, why would God break His own rules? Why would adherence to the laws of nature be weak? It really has no bearing on His Majesty on how He formed everything out out "dust".

I don't follow this. What are you referring to by "...God break[ing] his own rules?"