Full Preterism Pantelism: How dangerous?

[ClementofA]

How dangerous are Full Preterism & Pantelism?

Pantelism - Wikipedia

Preterism - Wikipedia

 

[Anto9us]

It's lethal.

It killed me.

I had to rise from the dead in my spare time AND SO CAN YOU !!

 

[ClementofA]

It's lethal.

It killed me.

I had to rise from the dead in my spare time AND SO CAN YOU !!

Did it cause you to lose your salvation, like being a Mormon or JW?

How dangerous are Full Preterism and Pantelism? Are they heresies? Damnable heresies? If yes, please explain & or provide evidence/proof.

"Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.

Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe?

"What is Heresy?"
Heresy | CARM.org

 

[Anto9us]

I do not consider Full Preterism 'heresy' - because I think heresy deals with an improper view of the nature, person, deity and pre-existence of Christ. There are theologies (like full preterism), that I think are WRONG -- but I do not label them heresy.

(And Slick's definition of heresy on CARM is way too broad for me)

 

[Anto9us]

Both on this board - and another one I go to - Full Preterism is not allowed to be discussed in End Times section. Partial Preterists are allegedly welcome.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did it cause you to lose your salvation, like being a Mormon or JW?

How dangerous are Full Preterism and Pantelism? Are they heresies? Damnable heresies? If yes, please explain & or provide evidence/proof.

"Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.

Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe?

"What is Heresy?"
Heresy | CARM.org

One can be a Futurist, Historicist, or Preterist and be orthodox. Though there are extreme versions of all these which are heterodox, or even heretical.

Full or Hyper Preterism is simply an extreme form of Preterism that is heretical, it is heretical because it denies fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: That Jesus Christ will come again, in glory, to judge the quick and the dead, and that there will be a bodily resurrection of the dead and eternal life in the Age to Come.

So, yes, Full or Hyper Preterism is heretical.

For what it's worth, I tend to identify as a Preterist.

-CryptoLutehran

 

[dreadnought]

How dangerous are Full Preterism & Pantelism?

Pantelism - Wikipedia

Preterism - Wikipedia

I wonder how many people have ever heard these two terms.

 

[Shempster]

Up until 3 months ago I never heard of any of this stuff. And that's 30 years in a few different churches. A friend of mine has been studying scholarly essays and listening to debates concerning these topics.
He calls himself a partial-preterist. I think he means that the events in Revelation did occur around 70AD but that it might "replay" itself out again in the future. But over the past month I think he is headed for full preterist.
So you asked it that dangerous? I don't think so myself. I looked into it and from my perspective it is just believing something that cannot be proven using scripture. Well, I mean it CAN, but you have to first want it to be true, then grab onto supporting scripture viewpoints and reject others.

I think the only danger is that we can waste life away trying to decipher prophecy (and maybe a headache)

 

[ClementofA]

Full or Hyper Preterism is simply an extreme form of Preterism that is heretical, it is heretical because it denies fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: That Jesus Christ will come again, in glory, to judge the quick and the dead, and that there will be a bodily resurrection of the dead and eternal life in the Age to Come.

So, yes, Full or Hyper Preterism is heretical.

Can provide proof of these claims, that this is what they deny?

By heretical do you mean false teachings or they are not Christians?

AFAIK they believe all prophecy is fulfilled & Jesus already came in 70 AD.

 

[Phil 1:21]

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can provide proof of these claims, that this is what they deny?

By heretical do you mean false teachings or they are not Christians?

AFAIK they believe all prophecy is fulfilled & Jesus already came in 70 AD.

Right, if they believe Jesus' Parousia was in 70 AD then they deny the future return of the Lord, which is contrary to the Creed. That's heresy.

From the horse's mouth:
What is Full Preterism? A Biblical and Historical Answer | fullpreterism.com

Hyper or Full Preterism states that the Parousia, Judgment, and Resurrection took place in 70 AD. Hyper Preterists believe that the resurrection of the dead is not the resurrection of the body, as the Church has always taught, but instead is a spiritual resurrection to heaven. That the Judgment is not the Judgment of the living and the dead at the conclusion of history, but Judgment against ancient Israel, and that the end of the age is not the conclusion of this present, sinful age in which the power of sin and death dominates the world but is merely the conclusion of the Old Testament age signaled by the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

The Apostles' and Nicene Creeds are explicit in what they teach:

From the Apostles' Creed,
"We believe in Jesus Christ ... He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. We believe ... in the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."

From the Nicene Creed,
"We believe ... in one Lord Jesus Christ, ... He ascended into the heavens and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end. ... We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the Age to Come. Amen."

Further we have the same in the proto-Creeds of the Church:

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him," - St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, 10:1

"I believe in God the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried. On the third day He rose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence He will come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, the life everlasting." - The Old Roman Symbol

"When the presbyter takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each of them to renounce, saying, 'I renounce you Satan, all your service, and all your works.' After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the oil of exorcism, saying, 'Let every evil spirit depart from you.' Then, after these things, the bishop passes each of them on nude to the presbyter who stands at the water. They shall stand in the water naked. A deacon, likewise, will go down with them into the water. When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on them, asking, 'Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?' And the one being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.' He shall then baptize each of them once, laying his hands upon each of their heads. Then he shall ask, 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died, and rose on the third day living from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of the Father, the One coming to judge the living and the dead?' When each has answered, 'I believe,' he shall baptize a second time. Then he shall ask, 'Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?' Then each being baptized shall answer, 'I believe.' And thus let him baptize the third time. Afterward, when they have come up out of the water, they shall be anointed by the presbyter with the oil of thanksgiving, saying, 'I anoint you with holy oil in the name of Jesus Christ.' Then, drying themselves, they shall dress and afterwards gather in the church." - St. Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition, 21:9-20

It is the unanimous teaching of the Christian Church that Christ will come again, in glory, as judge of the living and the dead, that the dead shall be raised up bodily--in the flesh--and that we shall have life in the future Age to Come, when God has renewed and restored all things. This is the faith of the Church, which has been believed since the beginning.

So, yes, to reject these things is heresy. Explicitly so.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ClementofA]

"The folly of full Preterism":
The folly of full Preterism - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Full Preterism "misdefining resurrection":
misdefining resurrection - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

"Mishandling the sleep -awake metaphor":
Mishandling the sleep -awake metaphor - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

"Misdefining the rapture":
Misdefining the rapture - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

"Full Preterism robs Christ":
Full Preterism robs Christ - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

"The Lesser Christ of Full Preterism":
The Lesser Christ of Full Preterism - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

 

[Noxot]

I think one possible danger is if they focus on the history so much that they might tend to ignore the wisdom of the spiritual processes we are to go through and which is expressed in prophesy.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did it cause you to lose your salvation, like being a Mormon or JW?

How dangerous are Full Preterism and Pantelism? Are they heresies? Damnable heresies? If yes, please explain & or provide evidence/proof.

"Preterism is divided into two camps: full (or consistent) preterism and partial preterism. Full preterism takes an extreme view that all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled in one way or another. Partial preterists take a more moderate approach, and many partial preterists consider full preterists to be guilty of heresy.

Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe?

"What is Heresy?"
Heresy | CARM.org

Up until 3 months ago I never heard of any of this stuff. And that's 30 years in a few different churches. A friend of mine has been studying scholarly essays and listening to debates concerning these topics.
He calls himself a partial-preterist. I think he means that the events in Revelation did occur around 70AD but that it might "replay" itself out again in the future. But over the past month I think he is headed for full preterist.
So you asked it that dangerous? I don't think so myself. I looked into it and from my perspective it is just believing something that cannot be proven using scripture. Well, I mean it CAN, but you have to first want it to be true, then grab onto supporting scripture viewpoints and reject others.

I think the only danger is that we can waste life away trying to decipher prophecy (and maybe a headache)

It's lethal.
It killed me.
I had to rise from the dead in my spare time AND SO CAN YOU !!

Nice............

And there is this.

16 different views on FP......really?

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2019_site-updates/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/2016_16-different-views-of-full-preterism/

The heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment, and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state. - John Owen

16 Different Views of Full Preterism (2016)

Below, you will find the following 16 different views of full preterism, in the following alphabetical order, for your information. The person’s name after the view is the name of the one who submitted it.
16 Different Views of Full Preterism
Compiled by Genuine Preterism, a Facebook group 2016

1. Charismatic Preterism
2. Comprehensive Grace/Pantelism
3. Covenant Eschatology
4. Essential Body View
5. Evangelical Preterism
6. Fulfilled Revelation Theology
7. Full Revelation Bible View
8. Israel Only View
9. Literal Millennial Reign Preterism
10. Narrative-Critical Fulfilled View
11. Natural 2 Spiritual View
12. Perpetual Millennium Preterism
13. Post-Apocalyptic View
14. Preterist-Idealist
15. Synthesis Eschatology/Preterist-Idealist View
16. Temporary Ekklesia Theory

 

[BABerean2]

Nice............

And there is this.

16 different views on FP......really?

And which one would you be?

.

 

[Willie T]

I could recommend at least ten books. But, until you have read at least a few, you really cannot talk intelligently about this subject. All you can do is repeat what someone has told you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And which one would you be?
.

Hello BAB........
I haven't read thru the commentaries of those views yet to form an opinion.
What eschatology view to you hold to?

Here is the first one [we can go thru each one separately]:

Charismatic Preterism
(Maurice Perry)

Nature and Time of Parousia:
Judgment upon those that killed the apostles and prophets in 70 AD

Nature and Time of Resurrection:
Temple’s destruction signified that the resurrection of the dead had begun in 70 AD

Nature and Time of the Gathering/Rapture:
Same as above, but perpetual, per Revelation 14:13

Nature and Time of the Millennium:
There is no definitive point as to when the ‘millennium began, but there is a definitive point as to when it ended, and I believe that coincides with the stoning of Stephen. I believe that this concept runs parallel with the apocalyptic ‘picture’ or scene that we see in Revelation 12 (of course, not verbatim, or in lock-step since we’re dealing with signs and symbols). The beginning of the millennium coincides with Revelation 12:1.

Is Salvation Ongoing Today? On-going salvation

Universalism? No universalism.

What Continues Today? The kingdom and the way to enter the kingdom – being born again (John 3:3).

Unique Characteristics of View: Jesus brought the kingdom, as well as its benefits. Signs, wonders, miracles, healing, deliverance, etc., were all benefits of the kingdom and having a supernatural God living in our midst (on the inside of believers).
===============================
This is what orthodox partial preterism believes concerning the parousia and I do lean toward this view. [I also toward toward the Amill view]..............

http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/index.html

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
=====================================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose

Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Amillennialism:
"no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age
=======================================

 

[BABerean2]

What eschatology view to you hold to?

I thought you knew that based on my posts of the Olivet Discourse.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I thought you knew that based on my posts of the Olivet Discourse.
.

What posts were those? Can you link them for me?
How much of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation do you view as fulfilled?

Here is my link to the harmonization of the 70ad Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

 

[Hillsage]

I think one possible danger is if they focus on the history so much that they might tend to ignore the wisdom of the spiritual processes we are to go through and which is expressed in prophesy.

This is just ironic for me. I totally agree with your post, but then look at your Tohu and Bohu comment under your username, and can't help but smile and wonder. What do those two words mean for you? I have Tôhû written on the empty page before Genesis 1 in my bible. With it I have written a brief personal commentary note as to how it relates to a PRE ADAMIC race. And here you are sharing your concern for the possibility of wasting time talking about the UNKNOWN FUTURE. A valid point, I agree. But, hopefully you can now see why my curiosity is peaked as to your reason for writing Tohu and Bohu? I know it's sort of off topic so if you feel you need to PM me that's fine. But I don't think a 'one post' explanation will ruin anyone's day here.