Full-page ad in The New York Times: "It's time to quit the Catholic Church"...

[StThomasMore]

can people read? apparently not.

"The Church" is not against women... but some men who represent the Church have been... and we have had some sexual perverts and many diocese, it is a good old boy netwrok of bishops.

Seroiusly, we can't fix what is wrong with-IN the Church until we stop acting like these things do not exsist.

they do- you all who say they don't, you all help create the problem we have with the "liberals" because they have valid complaints and you just refuse to admit it.

can't change what we refuse to acknowledge.

there are bad apples in every organization and group. So the question is a loaded one in my opinion that tries to seek to stigmatize the Church through secular political correctness. It is the same type of thing that strengthens the women's ordination and abortion movements

So are there some people in Church(Both clergy and laity). Just as there are perverts in organizations like the ACLU and the democratic wings. Humanity has a fallen nature and its nature is involved in every aspect of life whether it be secular or religious. PlannedParenthood murders almost half a million children every year, and I don't see these same proponents who want people to leave the Church asking others to leave PlannedParenthood in droves.

 

[Gwendolyn]

there are bad apples in every organization and group.
...
So are there some people in Church(Both clergy and laity). Just as there are perverts in organizations like the ACLU and the democratic wings.

And that was exactly my point, but apparently you and AMDG thought I was saying the church hates women or something.

 

[benedictaoo]

Tom- the liberals have valid complaints, very valid ones but their solutions are not correct. That's it- that's all.

we should admit to the problems, not pretend they don't exists and work with the libs to fix them that does not compromise the doctrinal teachings of the Church.

name calling and drawing enemy lines is the last thing we should do, IMO.

You see Tom, y'all leave me in no man's land because I'm not for the left and the right is just, well, crazy...

I want to fix this Church, not change it or pretend its all benevolent all the time- its really not. It has a lot of problems and it scandals many and hurts many- makes many want to just have nothing to do with it.

case in point, at work the other day a local TV commercial came on promoting "Louisiana's Catholic schools..." and it said something even I choked on.... "We teach tolerance and diversity to our children..." my Customer, an older lady who is a life long Catholic herself said out loud... "BS" and I had to concur... that is BS- Catholics are far from being taught diversity and tolerance.

Look, liberals are not the enemy- but the rights, make them our enemy.

Nothing changes if changes. Things have got to start changing.

 

[ThePilgrim]

I'm not a secularist and I have a BA in theology.

Note: I said chauvinism among the clergy. As in, individual men... and I can assure you, the things they said and did were definitely misogynistic. I'm not talking about things that people in the news squawk about, like contraception or abortion. I'm talking about discriminating against their female theology grad students, who are few and far between. I'm talking about verbally trashing women once they imbibe some alcohol. I'm talking about favouring men over women for church positions. I'm talking about going beyond thinking that women are best suited for motherhood, to saying that motherhood is ALL women are suited for, because theology is a man's world and women just don't have the heads for it.

I have definitely encountered discrimination in my theology program, and if I continued to study at this university for a master's degree, it would only get worse.

Don't rant at me about feminists when I am not talking about the feminist movement at all.

I'm sincerely sorry to hear that.

I have to say, as a man, that nothing makes me lose respect for another man more quickly than hearing him talk badly about his wife or about women in general.

The attitude you just described is very disappointing. Hopefully, it'll soon be a thing of the past.

 

[StThomasMore]

Tom- the liberals have valid complaints, very valid ones but their solutions are not correct. That's it- that's all.

we should admit to the problems, not pretend they don't exists and work with the libs to fix them that does not compromise the doctrinal teachings of the Church.

name calling and drawing enemy lines is the last thing we should do, IMO.

You see Tom, y'all leave me in no man's land because I'm not for the left and the right is just, well, crazy...

I want to fix this Church, not change it or pretend its all benevolent all the time- its really not. It has a lot of problems and it scandals many and hurts many- makes many want to just have nothing to do with it.

case in point, at work the other day a local TV commercial came on promoting "Louisiana's Catholic schools..." and it said something even I choked on.... "We teach tolerance and diversity to our children..." my Customer, an older lady who is a life long Catholic herself said out loud... "BS" and I had to concur... that is BS- Catholics are far from being taught diversity and tolerance.

Look, liberals are not the enemy- but the rights, make them our enemy.

Nothing changes if changes. Things have got to start changing.

The Church does not need to be "fixed". The intent itself as if one was birthed in this world to come and fix the Church is a paramount form of pride and arrogance. Like all areas of life , God allows the Church to go through trials and tribulations, the Holy Spirit guides it and it needs no Martin Luther's coming about to try to fix things. All it will do is just sew more dissent and discord, hurt unity, and encourage schism.

Nearly all the Catholic groups that have tried to "fix" the Church has become dissent organizations. Trying to tell Rome what to do. It is the wrong path to take. They nearly all take a spirit of schism within them.

If we really want to improve Church life, we need to start right at the beginning. The parenting and the early proper catechizing of our youth. When over half of American Catholic women use contraception, and over 80% don't even know what the real presence is, then we have a real problem with improper catechizing. Unlike popes, bishops, and cardinals, who need to be evaluated considerably, there are many parts in the Church life where outright heretics can secure a place for themselves within Church leadership outside the clergy that can totally ruin a parish.

Since a local bishop cannot watch the actions of thousands of parishes, there is a level of trust involved that people that are chosen to lead parish life are actually orthodox Catholics who don't have an agenda. And we as a community in the west have failed considerably at that part. A pro-abortion Catholic director in a parish can change the minds of hundreds of Catholics through the influence of their office. We need much better screening and history checks when allowing people in regarding parish positions. This is one area where the Eastern Orthodox tend to have a better hand on than us, but they again aren't so influenced by western political correctness than the American Catholic parishes are.

Regarding tolerance and diversity. Tolerance of what? Diversity of what? This is politically correct jumbo. There are things in life we should not be tolerant and be diverse on. So the argument for the sake of tolerance itself is a non-sequitor. What we are tolerant and intolerant of is what essentially makes us human and makes us able to discern right from wrong.

 

[benedictaoo]

Oh Tom, the way the men in the Church are hurting it which has created liberals in the first place, yes it does need fixing.

It needs serious fixing.

 

[Michie]

Did you see the Freedom From Religion Foundation's ad in The New York TImes? Here's a Catholic response...

 

[Chany]

Just a quick question, what about women who use the pill for medical purposes?

 

[Gwendolyn]

Just a quick question, what about women who use the pill for medical purposes?

If the woman is not sexually active, it's fine.

I use the pill for medical reasons.

 

[Chany]

If the woman is not sexually active, it's fine.

I use the pill for medical reasons.

Not to seem mean or anything, but can you cite where the Catholic Church says this? It's not that I don't believe the Church says this, I just like making it more official and having a reference point in the future.

Sorry for any trouble.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Not to seem mean or anything, but can you cite where the Catholic Church says this? It's not that I don't believe the Church says this, I just like making it more official and having a reference point in the future.

Sorry for any trouble.

Humanae Vitae, n.15
Lawful Therapeutic Means
15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Humanae Vitae, n.15
Lawful Therapeutic Means
15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever.

Doesn't this mean we shouldn't be so outraged about the HHS mandate? Insurance covers drugs that are widely abused like Xanax, after all -- and we don't loudly object to that.

 

[Assisi]

I've just read the ad. Wow! It was offensive!

Doesn't this mean we shouldn't be so outraged about the HHS mandate? Insurance covers drugs that are widely abused like Xanax, after all -- and we don't loudly object to that.

That seems like a good point to me actually...

 

[Gwendolyn]

I don't know. Contraception is the main function and use for the pill, though. It seems that women like me, who use the pill strictly for medical reasons, are not anywhere near as common as women who use the pill for contraception. For pain meds and anti-anxiety meds, most people use them to relieve pain and suffering, not to abuse them.

I'm too tired to think, lol

 

[ivebeenshown]

I've just read the ad. Wow! It was offensive!

Tcha right?

That seems like a good point to me actually...

Well, at the same time, the mandate covers abortifacients, aka, 'emergency contraception'.

 

[underheaven]

Oh Tom, the way the men in the Church are hurting it which has created liberals in the first place, yes it does need fixing.

It needs serious fixing.

I am orthodox in most of my beliefs because I know that it requires real work to get into the kingdom of God.So while I am definitely a sinner struggling,I am not a liberal, as that would mean that many sins were not considered as such. But the church has it wrong on reincarnation,which does not indeed preclude at all Resurrection in Christ, if understood properly,and this is not only a lifetime work ,but a revelation, from God.
When we know the truth we will be set free. When the church stops being irrrational in telling people that an infant born in Africa with aids ,that a child raped by ... ,etc is the work of God we may get back some of those 'fair minded liberals' who at least know, that if God exist He is not only Just, but totally Ordered, and Rational. This Issue will not go away.
It will come back again ,and again. For unless it is answered ,discussed,
and dealt with, it will undermine the church.

 

[underheaven]

and your own post doesn't resonate with you?

 

[benedictaoo]

If the woman is not sexually active, it's fine.
.

Which puts a married women who needs it, a rock in a hard place.

 

[benedictaoo]

Doesn't this mean we shouldn't be so outraged about the HHS mandate? Insurance covers drugs that are widely abused like Xanax, after all -- and we don't loudly object to that.

That's what I think.

 

[AMDG]

Doesn't this mean we shouldn't be so outraged about the HHS mandate? Insurance covers drugs that are widely abused like Xanax, after all -- and we don't loudly object to that.

Well, Xanax doesn't kill an innocent fetus. And as I've said many times, artificial hormones (birth control) only *cover up* the symptoms of a disease. They do not cure it. For that you'll have to go to NaPro Technology. It has actually cured problems like endometriosis and ovarian cysts, and has even given us cures making a hystorectomy is not needed. The minute we make it easier for drug companies to ply their death pill, we betray women by stopping any more NaPro Technology research (and it seems that it's not widely known right now.)

I have posted links to NaPro Technology before. Here's yet another.

http://www.catholicculture.com/NaProTechnology.pdf

And of course:

http://www.naprotechnology.com/surgical.htm

You know it's a wonder women don't realize that the HHS Mandate is not only interfering with the free exercise of religion by telling religions (Catholics, Orthodox Jews, Some Mainline Protestants) what they must do, but is an attack against women's health.