From the Advisors

[Gwenyfur]

We realize that OBOB has a unique need on CF due to being subject to Rome.

That need does not, however preclude the members' harassing, ignoring, and not respecting staff's decisions when it comes to the administration of OBOB. Nor does it give a free pass to violating the site's rules.

We do not have the Catholic staff needed at this time to be sure there is always going to be Catholics moderating in OBOB. We just can't fabricate mods, and Catholics aren't applying for staff positions.

So...

Let's be really clear...

No matter what icon a staff member is displaying, or not, on their profile, does not give any member a pass to argue, belittle or berate that staff member. If you feel that staff member is not understanding the Catholic perspective on an issue, then a polite PM is always welcome.

Any more harassment of our volunteer staff members will result in bans of varying lengths.

God's peace be with you.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Amen

 

[Davidnic]

If I may.

99.99999% of the time in the mixed staff period the icon a staff member held in relation to the icon of the person reported or reporting made no difference in their decisions. And if it did, that became apparent and was handled.

Although I think everyone, Catholic and Non-Catholic understands that between all Congregations and such there are things we do not understand about each other. I honestly ask, as a former staff member and someone who worked fairly hard for OBOB, that if you are reported and feel that the issue is a division in understanding that you handle it with charity and understanding with the mod. In that way, if it is a gap in understanding each other, then we will grow more in the understanding of each other.

But realize that the icon they wear has no bearing on whether a rule is broken or not. The understanding of our Church can only provide mitigating circumstances in resolving the why something was done and preventing future incidents. But if mods are ignored in trying to enforce the rules then things will spiral to a place where, I pray, no one wants them to be.

The lack of a larger Catholic staff is troublesome. Gwenyfur is right that Catholics are not applying for staff positions. For that there is a myriad of reasons that range from old issues from this board, old issues from other boards to the fact of how vilely we are treated around the internet in general on mixed Christian group message boards.

That last factor is also a reason many of you have trouble trusting the mods with different faith icons here. Almost everyone here has had the experience of being on other Christian sites and being treated, well...in ways that are very personally heartbreaking. Set apart from those places was always OBOB. It was different in that we could be Catholic here without being constantly attacked. Some of you may feel that has slipped. Let me comment on that.

A few years ago the anti-Catholic troll problem was much worse than it is now...or at least was when I left staff. By a massive amount. Today, anti-Catholic trolls are dealt with quickly and fairly. Honestly so quickly that you don't see many of them. Only general staffing levels prevent quicker response...and even so, the response is fast.

Over the years Catholics here have built a home. One that older members and more active members respect. It has given us a benefit of the doubt we do not have anywhere else on a mixed Christian site. That helps.

Where there is trouble now, is when it arises from Catholic to Catholic interaction that the mods need to police, not from some anti-Catholic agenda. It is far easier, though wrong, for us to say that they don't understand our "family" squabbles because they are not one us than to reflect that we are often treating each other with such a lack of charity that it violates the rules.

Now, I am not denying there are times when misunderstanding Catholic thought on an issue makes a huge difference. But, sadly, there is not much that can be done about that with few Catholics applying to be mods...or, let's be honest, continuing to participate on this site in the numbers they used to. There are reasons for all of that ranging far and wide. But none of them justify ignoring someone who has the authority to enforce site rules because they wear a different icon.

We exist here on CF in three different ways. Listed from broad to narrow.

• As members of CF who are bound by site rules
• As fellow Christians to others who are held by an expectation of charity in that regard
• As Catholics in OBOB who have our forum guidelines that let us express ourselves and our faith

Now, in importance people may move those around, I listed them broad to narrow. Feel free to hold them in importance as you wish. But...know that the mods are looking first and foremost at one: "As members of CF who are bound by site rules"

The other two may mitigate decisions, but they do not excuse any and all behavior. That is the viewpoint of a mod...Catholic or non-Catholic.

Many feel the old place is different. And it is. But many of the differences honestly lie in our behavior to each other and not the icon of the moderating staff.

Just my view from having been on both sides of this in many different situations. I can say with total honesty, with the exception of a small handful of issues, any disagreements I ever had with issues of moderation or administration were differences of opinion one to one and not involved with Congregation differences or lack of understanding. Now, I need to add that there does need to be someone of a few someone's who can represent each groups view and concerns in relation to having good FSG's or dealing with special issues. I do not know how that works right now, so I can not comment.

Understand. The mods you have work very hard. If you feel an issue revolves around a point where a better understanding of the Catholic faith will mitigate or illuminate your actions. Tell them. But do not expect it to justify a flame or direct breaking of the rules. And that should be the same with a Catholic or non-Catholic mod.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I think a better idea would be to deal with the alleged members commiting the alleged harrassment instead of posting a public warning making threats to an entire community.

 

[benedictaoo]

I do not agree with having non Catholic mods making decisions and handing out warnings or infractions.

especially when they are known anti Catholics. How can they not be biased when they deal with a non Catholic reporting a post?

 

[BAFRIEND]

I do not agree with having non Catholic mods making decisions and handing out warnings or infractions.

especially when they are known anti Catholics. How can they not be biased when they deal with a non Catholic reporting a post?

reps sent.

 

[Davidnic]

I think a better idea would be to deal with the alleged members commiting the alleged harrassment instead of posting a public warning making threats to an entire community.

If the issue is widespread a community announcement may have been necessary. It must be a growing problem since there was a site wide announcement about it in general terms on Jan 2nd.

So it would seem that it is a growing problem and not isolated to a few members. Perhaps it was decided that this was the best way to address it en mass and directly since it was a growing/non-isolated issue.

 

[Davidnic]

I do not agree with having non Catholic mods making decisions and handing out warnings or infractions.

especially when they are known anti Catholics. How can they not be biased when they deal with a non Catholic reporting a post?

I would guess, and not being a mod anymore it is only a guess, that the issue there revolves around how we are defining "know anti-Catholics". And who and how many would consider them such. I can say attacks on members by staff based on Congregational differences was never taken lightly. I would be surprised, given the current staff members I see, if it was taken lightly now.

If you see an anti-Catholic post by a mod...report it as you would any other. If you feel mod action is anti-Catholic then politely and orderly with the facts, PM the admin and advisors. I can say the people with admin authority in this area have never been anti-Catholic in my vast experience with them.

 

[BAFRIEND]

If the issue is widespread a community announcement may have been necessary. It must be a growing problem since there was a site wide announcement about it in general terms on Jan 2nd.

So it would seem that it is a growing problem and not isolated to a few members. Perhaps it was decided that this was the best way to address it en mass and directly since it was a growing/non-isolated issue.

Aparently there is a widespread perception here of unfairness.

 

[Davidnic]

Aparently there is a widespread perception here of unfairness.

It would seem. But that does not always mean it exists. It does not mean it does not exist. But most of the people I worked with are still on staff and I can say with great personal confidence that they are not anti-Catholic. I am not saying we always agreed. I can think of...3-4 issues of the top of my head where we had serious disagreements out of over a couple of hundred administrative issues. But only one of them involved a point of understanding of Catholic Doctrine and it was not an issue of anti-Catholicism. I can not, of course, comment on the full breath of current staff and membership.

But I can say that for a long time now in OBOB it has been the standard to find some way...any way, to rationalize a lack of charity Catholic to Catholic by finding other reasons to blame.

I am not saying this is happening with this issue. But I am saying it has been a constant factor for a troubling length of time. And needs to be factored into the thought process and would not surprise me if it played a part.

 

[Davidnic]

I am not saying everything is peach keen hunky dory. But I am saying that I can guarantee that there are many members of staff who will listen to and investigate any credible allegation of anti-Catholicism. But, like any of us, they deserve to be talked to politely and not yelled at. And from experience this is how most people do respond to staff in a stressful situation, they yell. Being a mod takes up more hours than it should, prevents them from participating fully in the areas they want to be part of and has them constantly doing reports and getting yelled at my many members. It is not unusual for a staff member to be called Anti-Catholic in one PM and then pro-Catholic as an insult in the next one in the inbox from someone else about a different report. And in those situations I, almost without exception, found the staff member was just doing their job.

Seriously. If you have evidence of anti-Catholic behavior they will investigate. Just like they will investigate anti-any Congregation or Denomination behavior.

 

[Gwendolyn]

A few years ago the anti-Catholic troll problem was much worse than it is now...or at least was when I left staff. By a massive amount. Today, anti-Catholic trolls are dealt with quickly and fairly. Honestly so quickly that you don't see many of them. Only general staffing levels prevent quicker response...and even so, the response is fast.

I never used to report people, but then someone told me that if I see a troll, I ought to report it immediately. So I do now.

However... I'm unclear on what constitutes a troll. There have been people in here telling us that Catholicism doesn't lead people to Christ, that we will not be saved and will not go to heaven, that our Church is corrupt and evil, etc. I've reported them... sometimes the same person has made two or three posts of the same ilk, so I report each separate instance.

Well... how many reports does a post or thread have to generate before mods take action? If a person makes an explicitly anti-Catholic post, do they have to get a PM first, and then the mods just wait for the person to respond? I'm unclear on the process, because I know of a few instances in which the posts were left untouched, and the threads were left open for days on end.

I just find it really hurtful that these rude and, in some cases, hateful statements are allowed to just sit there for a day or many more... out in the open for all to see.

I mean, I've gotten in trouble before in other areas, and BAM, my post was gone in under an hour.

I guess I don't understand the difference.

 

[isabella1]

Davids quote "Gwenyfur is right that Catholics are not applying for staff positions."

In my personal experience, many months back, I put in a complaint, that the policy had changed and there were non Catholics moding in OBOB, and the Catholic mods were put elsewhere. I stated then that IMO this would create a big problem down the line, and I was not personally comfortable with the decision. I went on to give several examples too, of what already occurred.

Long story short, I was just patronized, and the issue was closed.

We did have a lot of GOOD catholic mods at one point, and plenty for OBOB. I don't blame them for stepping down or not applying. When you are not allowed to MOD in your own forum, and your Catholic teachings are constantly overturned by non Catholic opinions, what do they expect?

Don't tell me either that this has not happened. Because it does, and it shows in the threads.

 

[Davidnic]

Answering all this as a used to be mod. So if anything has changed a current mod can correct me.

I never used to report people, but then someone told me that if I see a troll, I ought to report it immediately. So I do now.

Good

However... I'm unclear on what constitutes a troll. There have been people in here telling us that Catholicism doesn't lead people to Christ, that we will not be saved and will not go to heaven, that our Church is corrupt and evil, etc. I've reported them... sometimes the same person has made two or three posts of the same ilk, so I report each separate instance.

The troll line may not be crossed but the person is still violating the FSG's of OBOB. So they get reported. It only takes one report for action. Now...the problem is mods work on consensus model. So by the time the understaffed mod team gets the (usually 3) number of mods they need to agree. The thread may have gotten worse. Report each post and the mods can, if needed combine them into one action. Protocol is to delete reported posts pending action. But sometimes that happens and sometimes it does not. I am not sure if that is still protocol. But it used to be in order to prevent people from building off of a violation. But sometimes it was tricky because you would have to delete and then restore a non-violaiton. And people were upset. The problem is often that there are simpyl not enough mods for the number of reports.

Well... how many reports does a post or thread have to generate before mods take action? If a person makes an explicitly anti-Catholic post, do they have to get a PM first, and then the mods just wait for the person to respond? I'm unclear on the process, because I know of a few instances in which the posts were left untouched, and the threads were left open for days on end.

If a person is new and the violaitons are very obvious they might get banned immediately. if it looks like they are new and the violaitons are posssibly because they did not know the FSG's then the mods contac them. When posts are left untouched and unacted on that is usually because mods are coming to consensus and there are not enough of them to handle the report.

I just find it really hurtful that these rude and, in some cases, hateful statements are allowed to just sit there for a day or many more... out in the open for all to see.

I understand that and I agree. I think any potential violaitons of FSG should be deleted pending decision since they have the potential to offend and hurt the communtiy the FSG (Forum Specific Guideline) is structured to protect.

I mean, I've gotten in trouble before in other areas, and BAM, my post was gone in under an hour.

I guess I don't understand the difference.

I am willing to bet the difference is staffing level. Now if it is that people are blocking rulings that there are violations of the OBOB FSG in a disproportionate manner then that would be a serious problem. I can not say that is or is not happening. But PM staff when it happens to ask why a post is still there if you find it greatly offensive.

 

[Davidnic]

Davids quote "Gwenyfur is right that Catholics are not applying for staff positions."

In my personal experience, many months back, I put in a complaint, that the policy had changed and there were non Catholics moding in OBOB, and the Catholic mods were put elsewhere. I stated then that IMO this would create a big problem down the line, and I was not personally comfortable with the decision. I went on to give several examples too, of what already occurred.

Many Catholics do not want to mod OBOB. They would rather mod elsewhere.

Long story short, I was just patronized, and the issue was closed.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

We did have a lot of GOOD catholic mods at one point, and plenty for OBOB. I don't blame them for stepping down or not applying. When you are not allowed to MOD in your own forum, and your Catholic teachings are constantly overturned by non Catholic opinions, what do they expect?

Don't tell me either that this has not happened. Because it does, and it shows in the threads.

That did not happen when I was a mod. I can not say whether it happened later.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Well...as per usual...OBOBers in general are missing the call to respond in charity and humility, and create a thread in which personal conversion is set rapidly aside in favor of justifying actions. Woot! We rock!

I am certain that mods are not moderating the theology of posts in OBOB. 100% certain. And that is coming from someone who thinks CF has some serious, fundamental issues in the way it is moderated and run.

 

[Gwendolyn]

The troll line may not be crossed but the person is still violating the FSG's of OBOB. So they get reported. It only takes one report for action. Now...the problem is mods work on consensus model. So by the time the understaffed mod team gets the (usually 3) number of mods they need to agree. The thread may have gotten worse. Report each post and the mods can, if needed combine them into one action. Protocol is to delete reported posts pending action. But sometimes that happens and sometimes it does not. I am not sure if that is still protocol. But it used to be in order to prevent people from building off of a violation. But sometimes it was tricky because you would have to delete and then restore a non-violaiton. And people were upset. The problem is often that there are simpyl not enough mods for the number of reports.]

If a person is new and the violaitons are very obvious they might get banned immediately. if it looks like they are new and the violaitons are posssibly because they did not know the FSG's then the mods contac them. When posts are left untouched and unacted on that is usually because mods are coming to consensus and there are not enough of them to handle the report.

...I think any potential violaitons of FSG should be deleted pending decision since they have the potential to offend and hurt the communtiy the FSG (Forum Specific Guideline) is structured to protect.

I am willing to bet the difference is staffing level. Now if it is that people are blocking rulings that there are violations of the OBOB FSG in a disproportionate manner then that would be a serious problem. I can not say that is or is not happening. But PM staff when it happens to ask why a post is still there if you find it greatly offensive.

I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded.

I just find it a bit strange because I have never said anything to attack people's faith - I've gotten in trouble in two other denom forums. A few times for saying, "Oh, Catholics do not believe that at all" and providing a correction (I do not go in other people's forums to teach/preach) and once because I was irritable and I really did deserve to get a mod PM (I'd been talking about something sociological/political). In all those cases, my stuff was gone very quickly and I got a PM within maybe 10 minutes.

I don't understand why I can have my posts removed for stuff like that, and get reprimanded... but people who come in here and say explicitly horrible things get their posts and threads left here for awhile - sometimes the posts or the thread don't get touched at all.

Just feels like an inconsistency. I know that each forum does have its own FSGs - but if anything, it seems like we'd need the most strict ones, given the rampant anti-Catholicism on this website.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Well...as per usual...OBOBers in general are missing the call to respond in charity and humility, and create a thread in which personal conversion is set rapidly aside in favor of justifying actions. Woot! We rock!

I am certain that mods are not moderating the theology of posts in OBOB. 100% certain. And that is coming from someone who thinks CF has some serious, fundamental issues in the way it is moderated and run.

I don't see that happening in this thread, perhaps you can quote something that supports your perception.

 

[Gwendolyn]

We have been sorely lacking in charity. I do agree.

However, that doesn't really solve the problem of non-Catholics coming in here and saying rude things. Whether we respond to them kindly or not, hateful and anti-Catholic posts should not be permitted. Period.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I've been here for years and years and in all that time I've only noticed one or two legitimate "anti-Catholic" posters who were legitimately a problem. A greater problem is actually people who are Catholic, and people who are reasonably polite non-Catholics, being categorized by some as anti-Catholics and harassed, by members, and sometimes even moderators.

There are those who have their own definition of what constitutions a Catholic. It's difficult from the popular definition of the word, it's different from the Vatican's definition of the word. The definition seems to amount to "loyal Republican" or "conservative ideologue". Under the definition used, the about 50% of US bishops who voted for the President wouldn't qualify to post here. 75% of self-identified Catholics probably wouldn't qualify to post here. Those are ridiculous criteria.

Most liberals got run out of here on a rail long ago. A lot of moderates, and even a few conservatives who weren't quite the type of conservative the self-appointed judges of orthodoxy (Who actually aren't so orthodox themselves in many cases) like, are gone. You don't always see them post in threads like this because they aren't here to post, but they would be here if this problem didn't exist.

I welcome ecumenical moderation of this forum. It's an ecumenical site. It's good to have people without an axe to grind being able to sort things out.

People talk about the "good old days" of an all-Catholic moderation team, but there's an old Billy Joel song with a line that says "the good old days weren't so good", and I think the song rungs true here. Frankly, in many of those times, the moderation team was staffed with far right-wing ideologues who were moderating the forum for perceived ideological purity rather than enforcing the rules in a way that was fair to everyone.

The very fact that we even *have* a Liberal Catholic forum is a testament to the fact that enough people found it uncomfortable here that they have to aggressively campaign for a second forum. The problem is, though, that such a forum doesn't work for some of the moderates and conservatives on the outs here, and even many liberals want to be able to post with *all* of their fellow Catholics, in a general forum, and theoretically have the right to.