from Plato's Timeaus

[Ligurian]

from Plato's Timeaus​

"The white phlegm is troublesome when confined within, because of the air in its bubbles, but it is milder when it finds passage to the outer part of the body where it produces a variety of colours and white markings and engenders the diseases related thereto. When combined with black bile it can spread over the orbits that are in the head and throw them into confusion. Now if this comes to us in sleep it is quite mild. However, if it visits us whilst awake it is harder to get rid of, and being a disease of a sacred substance, it is quite rightly referred to as “the sacred disease”. Phlegm that is acidic and salty is the well-spring of all diseases that produce catarrh, and because the flow takes place from a variety of locations they have acquired all sorts of names."

Is this true or false according to modern medicine?
Is this really what causes epilepsy?

 

[Occams Barber]

from Plato's Timeaus​

"The white phlegm is troublesome when confined within, because of the air in its bubbles, but it is milder when it finds passage to the outer part of the body where it produces a variety of colours and white markings and engenders the diseases related thereto. When combined with black bile it can spread over the orbits that are in the head and throw them into confusion. Now if this comes to us in sleep it is quite mild. However, if it visits us whilst awake it is harder to get rid of, and being a disease of a sacred substance, it is quite rightly referred to as “the sacred disease”. Phlegm that is acidic and salty is the well-spring of all diseases that produce catarrh, and because the flow takes place from a variety of locations they have acquired all sorts of names."

Is this true or false according to modern medicine?
Is this really what causes epilepsy?

Plato got it wrong.

From the Perron Institute

Epilepsy - Perron Institute

Research Focus People with epilepsy often live with other conditions such as depression, memory or sleep problems, headaches, learning or behavioural problems. Treatments may interfere with the management of co-existing...

www.perroninstitute.org

"Epilepsy is a neurological condition where there is a tendency to have recurrent seizures and can affect people at any age. Seizures disrupt normal brain activity, can present in many ways, and can have a significant impact on someone’s life.

"Epilepsy can be caused by different conditions, such as head injury, brain infections, strokes, brain tumours, dementia, immune conditions, and genetic diseases. Current research shows that genetic conditions account for a significant proportion of epilepsy in very young children, while strokes and dementia account for most new cases of epilepsy after the age of 65 years."

 

[essentialsaltes]

'Is this true or false according to modern medicine?'

Yes, it is either true or false.

 

[Ligurian]

from Plato's Timeaus​

"The white phlegm is troublesome when confined within, because of the air in its bubbles, but it is milder when it finds passage to the outer part of the body where it produces a variety of colours and white markings and engenders the diseases related thereto. When combined with black bile it can spread over the orbits that are in the head and throw them into confusion. Now if this comes to us in sleep it is quite mild. However, if it visits us whilst awake it is harder to get rid of, and being a disease of a sacred substance, it is quite rightly referred to as “the sacred disease”. Phlegm that is acidic and salty is the well-spring of all diseases that produce catarrh, and because the flow takes place from a variety of locations they have acquired all sorts of names."

Is this true or false according to modern medicine?
Is this really what causes epilepsy?

Plato got it wrong.

From the Perron Institute

Epilepsy - Perron Institute

Research Focus People with epilepsy often live with other conditions such as depression, memory or sleep problems, headaches, learning or behavioural problems. Treatments may interfere with the management of co-existing...

www.perroninstitute.org

"Epilepsy is a neurological condition where there is a tendency to have recurrent seizures and can affect people at any age. Seizures disrupt normal brain activity, can present in many ways, and can have a significant impact on someone’s life.

"Epilepsy can be caused by different conditions, such as head injury, brain infections, strokes, brain tumours, dementia, immune conditions, and genetic diseases. Current research shows that genetic conditions account for a significant proportion of epilepsy in very young children, while strokes and dementia account for most new cases of epilepsy after the age of 65 years."

Are you sure about that?

"Black bile is the name given to any substance found in the feces of people with chronic liver disease."

What is black bile in vomiting?

If you don't vomit right away, your blood will turn a dark red, brown, or black color. The presence of clotted blood in the vomit will give it the appearance of coffee grounds.

staminacomfort.com

"Compromised liver function leads to insufficient detoxification thus allowing neurotoxins (such as ammonia, manganese, and other chemicals) to enter the cerebral circulation."

Neurologic Manifestations of Chronic Liver Disease and Liver Cirrhosis - PubMed

The normal functioning of brain is intimately as well as intricately interrelated with normal functioning of the liver. Liver plays a critical role of not only providing vital nutrients to the brain but also of detoxifying the splanchnic blood. Compromised liver function leads to insufficient...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Risk of seizures and status epilepticus in older patients with liver disease"

Risk of seizures and status epilepticus in older patients with liver disease - PubMed

In a large, population-based cohort, we found an association between cirrhosis and status epilepticus, but no overall association between liver disease and seizures.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[essentialsaltes]

Are you sure about that?

"Black bile is the name given to any substance found in the feces of people with chronic liver disease."

That is not what Plato meant by black bile / melan-cholia

 

[Ligurian]

That is not what Plato meant by black bile / melan-cholia

Why not let Plato tell you what he's talking about?

from Plato's Timeaus​

"The white phlegm [...] When combined with black bile it can spread over the orbits that are in the head and throw them into confusion. Now if this comes to us in sleep it is quite mild. However, if it visits us whilst awake it is harder to get rid of, and being a disease of a sacred substance, it is quite rightly referred to as “the sacred disease”. [...]"


Go look it up online. ... ... The sacred disease is epilepsy.

Plato says the divine part of the soul is in the head... this is what the "sacred substance" means.

* Plato's Timaeus is available online and gutenberg. org has it as a plain-text download... if you want to know what Plato means by black bile in context.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why not let Plato tell you what he's talking about?

from Plato's Timeaus​

"The white phlegm [...] When combined with black bile it can spread over the orbits that are in the head and throw them into confusion. Now if this comes to us in sleep it is quite mild. However, if it visits us whilst awake it is harder to get rid of, and being a disease of a sacred substance, it is quite rightly referred to as “the sacred disease”. [...]"


Go look it up online. ... ... The sacred disease is epilepsy.

Plato says the divine part of the soul is in the head... this is what the "sacred substance" means.

* Plato's Timaeus is available online and gutenberg. org has it as a plain-text download... if you want to know what Plato means by black bile in context.

Plato says black bile causes the sacred disease in combination with white phlegm. Your medical quote says black bile is the result of liver disease (and the bile duct empties into the intestines).

So, no; what Plato says is not correct by current medical understanding.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

'Is this true or false according to modern medicine?'

Yes, it is either true or false.

Yeah, that's a tricky poll...

 

[Ligurian]

Plato says black bile causes the sacred disease in combination with white phlegm. Your medical quote says black bile is the result of liver disease (and the bile duct empties into the intestines).

So, no; what Plato says is not correct by current medical understanding.

You didn't read the context of what I quoted from Plato, did you. It talks about the flem turning black if it's not vomitted up right away.

Granted this link is just from a wife's point of view, and not scientific... but it seems to be talking about the same thing.

Coughing up white flem : Hi not been on... - British Liver Trust

Hi not been on here for a while hubby is still drinking but has cut down but he shouldn’t be drinking at all he’s not eating hes struggling to swallow the food he’s looking really skinny. The issue...

healthunlocked.com

"vomiting every Morning coughing up white fluffy flem to the point he feels dizzy and starts to sweat. This lasts over an hour every day Has anyone else had this and could you offer advise on what it could be. He has told his doc who has referred him for his lungs and kidneys checking he said it could be due to his liver other organs are struggling"

Do you think organ damage can cause black bile? White flem contains dead white blood cells... and all of what Plato talked about in those sentences had to do with what was happening in the blood.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You didn't read the context of what I quoted from Plato, did you. It talks about the flem turning black if it's not vomitted up right away.

Granted this link is just from a wife's point of view, and not scientific... but it seems to be talking about the same thing.

Coughing up white flem : Hi not been on... - British Liver Trust

Hi not been on here for a while hubby is still drinking but has cut down but he shouldn’t be drinking at all he’s not eating hes struggling to swallow the food he’s looking really skinny. The issue...

healthunlocked.com

"vomiting every Morning coughing up white fluffy flem to the point he feels dizzy and starts to sweat. This lasts over an hour every day Has anyone else had this and could you offer advise on what it could be. He has told his doc who has referred him for his lungs and kidneys checking he said it could be due to his liver other organs are struggling"

Do you think organ damage can cause black bile? White flem contains dead white blood cells... and all of what Plato talked about in those sentences had to do with what was happening in the blood.

Epilepsy isn't a liver or digestive disease.

Why are we caring what Plato says at all about medicine. He was not a physician.

 

[SelfSim]

Agree with @Hans Blaster.

Who cares what Plato believed? How is that in any way relevant, or even comparable with modern neurological science's current understanding of epilepsy?

What's the point of even spending a minute thinking about what Plato might have thought about it?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You didn't read the context of what I quoted from Plato, did you. It talks about the flem turning black if it's not vomitted up right away.

OK... how is that relevant?

Granted this link is just from a wife's point of view, and not scientific... but it seems to be talking about the same thing.

Coughing up white flem : Hi not been on... - British Liver Trust

Hi not been on here for a while hubby is still drinking but has cut down but he shouldn’t be drinking at all he’s not eating hes struggling to swallow the food he’s looking really skinny. The issue...

healthunlocked.com

"vomiting every Morning coughing up white fluffy flem to the point he feels dizzy and starts to sweat. This lasts over an hour every day Has anyone else had this and could you offer advise on what it could be. He has told his doc who has referred him for his lungs and kidneys checking he said it could be due to his liver other organs are struggling"

Do you think organ damage can cause black bile? White flem contains dead white blood cells... and all of what Plato talked about in those sentences had to do with what was happening in the blood.

I don't see any mention of black bile in that quote; coughing up white foamy phlegm could be symptomatic of a lung infection.

Black bile is not recognised in modern medicine - it's thought that it might have referred to blood in the stool, which, if it originates high in the digestive tract, may emerge black or tarry. If so, it will be the result of organ damage, e.g. bleeding from a stomach ulcer, a cancerous growth in the gut, a damaged liver, etc.

 

[Ligurian]

Epilepsy isn't a liver or digestive disease.

Why are we caring what Plato says at all about medicine. He was not a physician.

I think Plato was using the works of the "Natural Philosophers".

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think Plato was using the works of the "Natural Philosophers".

And your point is what? He's still very wrong.