Friendly (*ONLY) Jewish/Christian Interfaith Study - Anybody interested?

[Moshe Shlomo]

Hi, my name is Moshe (Moses in Hebrew). I am an Israeli citizen somewhat fluent in the Hebrew scriptures and (oddly enough) a practicing Hassidic Orthodox Jew, but I am very curious about the origins and teachings of Jesus and have been studying the Word on the internet (completely on my own) for about a year. My Rabbi and friends in my Jewish circles have no interest discussing this subject on an intellectual level, yet I have many questions that I would like to respectfully address, as my musings are purely hypothetical at this point. Although several of my family members are believing Christians (my mother converted to Judaism from Christianity), I do not yet consider myself a Christian, mostly because of the requirement to worship/pray
to a human, which I believe is forbidden to Jews in the Torah, but I do see amazing parallels in the Old/New Testament scriptures and teachings of Jesus in comparison to Hassidic Jewish thought. Anybody up for a friendly exchange of information?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi, my name is Moshe (Moses in Hebrew). I am an Israeli citizen somewhat fluent in the Hebrew scriptures and (oddly enough) a practicing Hassidic Orthodox Jew, but I am very curious about the origins and teachings of Jesus and have been studying the Word on the internet (completely on my own) for about a year. My Rabbi and friends in my Jewish circles have no interest discussing this subject on an intellectual level, yet I have many questions that I would like to respectfully address, as my musings are purely hypothetical at this point. Although several of my family members are believing Christians (my mother converted to Judaism from Christianity), I do not yet consider myself a Christian, mostly because of the requirement to worship/pray
to a human, which I believe is forbidden to Jews in the Torah, but I do see amazing parallels in the Old/New Testament scriptures and teachings of Jesus in comparison to Hassidic Jewish thought. Anybody up for a friendly exchange of information?

What would you like to know, Moshe?

 

[TzephanYahu]

Hi @Moshe Shlomo

Interesting OP.

I would be happy to shoot the breeze with you as I also have a few questions I would like to fire back at you.

As a Christian for about 20 years, and one that has a deep respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters, and who walks by Torah the best can. Therefore, I can promise you a patient ear and thoughtful consideration for any questions you may have.

Although I would prefer that by private messaging as the "noise" that can come with a forum over such sensitive matters can often derail topics into bedlam quickly!

If you are interested, feel free to PM me.

Shalom.

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Thank you for your kindness my friend. I consider Christians to be our brothers and have tremendous respect for those who love G-d and truly try to live their lives according to the words of Jesus. PM on the way.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi, my name is Moshe (Moses in Hebrew). I am an Israeli citizen somewhat fluent in the Hebrew scriptures and (oddly enough) a practicing Hassidic Orthodox Jew, but I am very curious about the origins and teachings of Jesus and have been studying the Word on the internet (completely on my own) for about a year. My Rabbi and friends in my Jewish circles have no interest discussing this subject on an intellectual level, yet I have many questions that I would like to respectfully address, as my musings are purely hypothetical at this point. Although several of my family members are believing Christians (my mother converted to Judaism from Christianity), I do not yet consider myself a Christian, mostly because of the requirement to worship/pray
to a human, which I believe is forbidden to Jews in the Torah, but I do see amazing parallels in the Old/New Testament scriptures and teachings of Jesus in comparison to Hassidic Jewish thought. Anybody up for a friendly exchange of information?

Ok -- count me in!! .

I am a Seventh-day Adventist Christian - we keep Sabbath from Friday at sunset to Saturday at Sundown.

The Christian view of "The Godhead" is that He is "one God" Duet 6:4 in "three persons" Matt 28:19

In Gen 18 we see that Abraham sees "three men walking" but in fact one of them is YHWH according to that chapter. So if Abraham were to pray to that "man" we would not object since in fact Gen 18 says He is YHWH.

The servant of Isaiah 53 is the incarnate God (the Son of God) - Jesus Christ.

I have been told that this commentary on the life of Christ is written in an orthodox Jewish style in terms of the way it translates/quotes scripture in English.

The Desire of Ages

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Hi @Moshe Shlomo

Interesting OP.

I would be happy to shoot the breeze with you as I also have a few questions I would like to fire back at you.

As a Christian for about 20 years, and one that has a deep respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters, and who walks by Torah the best can. Therefore, I can promise you a patient ear and thoughtful consideration for any questions you may have.

Although I would prefer that by private messaging as the "noise" that can come with a forum over such sensitive matters can often derail topics into bedlam quickly!

If you are interested, feel free to PM me.

Shalom.

Unfortunatley, I think that as a new member, I am not yet allowed to send PM's, but I await yours?

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

One of my big questions to Christians is about the (OT) oral traditions and teachings which Jews have been transmitting from generation to generation, which are known by Jews to have been taught by Moses from Mount Sinai. Do Christians disenfranchise all of these and why?

 

[BobRyan]

One of my big questions to Christians is about the (OT) oral traditions and teachings which Jews have been transmitting from generation to generation, which are known by Jews to have been taught by Moses from Mount Sinai. Do Christians disenfranchise all of these and why?

Some Christians dismiss almost all of the Hebrew Bible (called "the Old Testament" by most Christians.)

But this is not true of all Christian denominations. There are those denominations (such as the one I belong to ... and others) that accept all 39 books of the OT as inspired scripture. Inspired by God. We divide it into 39 but it is the same content as what is in the Hebrew Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine and correction", in context this term "scripture" is speaking primarily of the Hebrew Bible but also by extension - it speaks to the New Testament as well.

We believe that the animal sacrifices of the Hebrew Bible (OT) were pointing to the sacrifice of the incarnate God -- God the Son - (Jesus Christ). So once He died on the cross -- the animal sacrifice "types" were no longer needed.

As Isaiah 53 says - He made himself "an offering for sin" - a "sin offering" - paying the debt we owe. Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned" so then all are doomed for "the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 meaning the lake-of-fire "second death" of Revelation 20 - not the first death (which all die both the wicked and the righteous.)

Have you read the very short book of "Hebrews" in the NT?
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 1 - New American Standard Bible

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel 18 has the same idea of second death - because in that chapter only the wicked die and none of the righteous die. This can only be true of the second death that we see in Revelation 20 since we all agree that both the wicked and the righteous die in this life.

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Some Christians dismiss almost all of the Hebrew Bible (called "the Old Testament" by most Christians.)

But this is not true of all Christian denominations. There are those denominations (such as the one I belong to ... and others) that accept all 39 books of the OT as inspired scripture. Inspired by God. We divide it into 39 but it is the same content as what is in the Hebrew Bible.

2 Tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine and correction", in context this term "scripture" is speaking primarily of the Hebrew Bible but also by extension - it speaks to the New Testament as well.

We believe that the animal sacrifices of the Hebrew Bible (OT) were pointing to the sacrifice of the incarnate God -- God the Son - (Jesus Christ). So once He died on the cross -- the animal sacrifice "types" were no longer needed.

As Isaiah 53 says - He made himself "an offering for sin" - a "sin offering" - paying the debt we owe. Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned" so then all are doomed for "the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 meaning the lake-of-fire "second death" of Revelation 20 - not the first death which all die both the wicked and the righteous.

Have you read the very short book of "Hebrews" in the NT?
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 1 - New American Standard Bible

So if according to 2 Tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine and correction" How could any Christian rationalize that the OT is not inspired by G-d? I never heard that idea from Christians.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi, my name is Moshe (Moses in Hebrew). I am an Israeli citizen somewhat fluent in the Hebrew scriptures and (oddly enough) a practicing Hassidic Orthodox Jew, but I am very curious about the origins and teachings of Jesus and have been studying the Word on the internet (completely on my own) for about a year. My Rabbi and friends in my Jewish circles have no interest discussing this subject on an intellectual level, yet I have many questions that I would like to respectfully address, as my musings are purely hypothetical at this point. Although several of my family members are believing Christians (my mother converted to Judaism from Christianity), I do not yet consider myself a Christian, mostly because of the requirement to worship/pray
to a human, which I believe is forbidden to Jews in the Torah, but I do see amazing parallels in the Old/New Testament scriptures and teachings of Jesus in comparison to Hassidic Jewish thought. Anybody up for a friendly exchange of information?

Welcome ! Looking forward to hearing more!
Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

So if according to 2 Tim 3:16 says "ALL scripture is inspired by God and is to be used for doctrine and correction" How could any Christian rationalize that the OT is not inspired by G-d? I never heard that idea from Christians.

Well the OT-accepting groups include about 22 million Christians in the denomination of Sabbath keeping Christians that I belong to.. and millions in Sabbath-Keeping Messianic Jewish groups - and many millions in other groups as well - will gladly admit that the 'OT' is inspired scripture - inspired by God.

"Some" Christians get a bit spun around on this and think that only the NT is for everyone and the OT is just for the Jews. That number of Christians that reject it is quite large - but they tend to just read the NT and ignore pretty much anything quoted from the OT.

Of course there are agnostic/atheist news and education sources that reject all of the Bible saying it is all myth and none of it is inspired by God.

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Welcome ! Looking forward to hearing more!
Blessings

Thank you! Blessings to all of my brothers!

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Well this includes about 22 million in the denomination of Sabbath keeping Christians that I belong to.. and millions in the Messianic Jewish groups - and many millions in other groups as well - will gladly admit that the 'OT' is inspired scripture - inspired by God.

And rightfully so! Without the OT, the NT cannot be understood, since the Gospels continually reference it the OT in scripture. My real question is not if the (Written) scripture is valid, which I believe 100% it is, but really I'm asking about the Christian view of the Jewish (Oral) traditions that we Jews have from Mount Sinai, as explanations of the meanings of the verses, as dictated by Moses.

 

[trophy33]

Christianity and judaism are very different. These two are in a direct enmity towards each other since their beginnings, so the debate cannot be too friendly for a longer period of time, I suppose.

Their basic elements are contradictory to each other.

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Christianity and judaism are very different. These two are in a direct enmity to each other since their beginnings, so the debate cannot be too friendly for a longer period of time, I suppose.

I respectfully disagree. From what I have learned on my own, the OT and the NT are so far, not at all in conflict each other with the right understanding. As a matter of fact, even Christians claim that the NT is the revealed OT.

 

[BobRyan]

And rightfully so! Without the OT, the NT cannot be understood, since the Gospels continually reference it the OT in scripture. My real question is not if the (Written) scripture is valid, which I believe 100% it is, but really I'm asking about the Christian view of the Jewish (Oral) traditions that we Jews have from Mount Sinai, as explanations of the meanings of the verses, as dictated by Moses.

Isaiah 8:20 says "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light".

Christians call this "sola scriptura" testing. Testing all doctrine, practice, teaching by scripture.

Some traditions do not pass that test. In Mark 7 Jesus shows us how He had to toss out traditions that did not conform to that rule.

Mark 7:
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Notice the "sola scriptura" test Jesus uses there.
And he equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God"

that is NT teaching.

Acts 17:11 we have the case where non-Christians study the OT to "TEST" what Paul is teaching in the NT - to see if it is "So" -- to see if it is true.

11 "Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so"

scripture (primarily OT scripture in this case of Acts 17 ) is the test of doctrine.

 

[trophy33]

I respectfully disagree. From what I have learned on my own, the OT and the NT are so far, not at all in conflict each other with the right understanding. As a matter of fact, even Christians claim that the NT is the revealed OT.

NT vs OT is not the same thing as Christianity vs Judaism, though...

The first are just collections of books, the latter are belief systems and interpretations.

You can find some similar interpretations of some places in the OT, but hardly in basics.

 

[BobRyan]

Christianity and judaism are very different. These two are in a direct enmity towards each other since their beginnings, so the debate cannot be too friendly for a longer period of time, I suppose.

Their basic elements are contradictory to each other.

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus believed in the OT and taught it -

Matthew 5:
7 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! 19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus fulfilled the OT prediction about the coming Messiah and being a "sacrifice for sin" the spotless, sinless One.

But He did not delete the command "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

 

[Moshe Shlomo]

Isaiah 8:20 says "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light".

Christians call this "sola scriptura" testing. Testing all doctrine, practice, teaching by scripture.

Some traditions do not pass that test. In Mark 7 Jesus shows us how He had to toss out traditions that did not conform to that rule.

Mark 7:
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Notice the "sola scriptura" test Jesus uses there.
And he equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God"

that is NT teaching.

Acts 17:11 we have the case where non-Christians study the OT to "TEST" what Paul is teaching in the NT - to see if it is "So" -- to see if it is true.

I agree with what Jesus is saying here, but not necessarily your interpretation that we he is saying that Jews must throw out the traditions. The way I understand this is that at that time, before the destruction of the 2nd Temple, many (not all) of the Jews, including the Pharasies AND Sadducies were corrupt and angering G-d. Those who painstakingly kept the traditions while violating the written law, were clearly acting in a hypocritical way, and not only Jesus, but Jeremiah (in the 1st Temple period) made this VERY clear, that it will all end very badly if they do not repent.