Friend asks: Why do they need saved?

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bobbygolucky

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Hey all...

Discussing christianity with my friend... explaining to her why I believe and think that others need to.

Not sure how to answer some questions... I can babble... but can't find good words.

1.)She doesn't like the idea of some book telling you what is right and wrong.

She thinks people should just come up with their own morals that fit them. See she has great morals... lives by many of the same ones christians do... so I can see how it is hard for her to understand why it isn't a good idea... that all hearts aren't quite as strong and innocent as hers. So there would be a few good people, then the rest not so good and some down right terrible. She says the government is there to keep people in line. hehe. She doesn't get why people can't just come up with their own sense of right and wrong. Thinks there are just a few nutcases like hitler or the terrorists. There will always be people breaking the laws, she says.

2.)Why does she need to be saved?
She believes her parents brought her up with great morals, and they never made her go to church. I agree, they did do a GREAT job. She gets through life just fine, is a good person, and doesn't have things she feels guilty about. But that doesn't mean she doesn't need saved. I just can't really explain to her why. I'm not quite sure myself why people with outstanding morals and a big loving heart their whole life wouldn't be saved since they didn't read the bible.

in fact I have a question of my own...


3.)I've seen some extreme christian dude talking about how important it is to go preach to the third world countries or support a group that does. I'm thinking 'ok nothing wrong with that. sounds good.' But then he goes on to say that these 3rd world peoples who are starving and dying everyday often times never even once hear of the bible mentioned... and that its a shame because that means they are going to hell. Now I thought 'Wait a minute there...' I don't believe that to be true. Because these people were never even given the CHANCE in their whole lives to hear about something called christianity, let alone really find out about it or ever see a bible to read (if they can read,) that this meant they are going to hell? I don't think so miester. That doesn't sound like my god. Someone said 'well god may have placed them there because he knew they wouldn't follow him.' All of them??? There isn't 1 good person out there that hasn't heard or read the bible that will be saved??? No way. Don't buy it.

Thanks for your thoughts. If you know any good references for sites on teaching people why to believe or something similar to that, please point me to them.

~Bob
 

Homie

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2) God is not here "for our sake", we are here for his. If you live a good life without christ (few do, your friend is exceptional) it doesn't matter! If you do not choose Christ he will not choose YOU to live in eternity with HIM. Also, the closer you get to God the better it will be for you. It may be difficult to achieve, but Enoch was so "in-sync" with God the God brought him up to him, he must have been the happiest man ever.

3) Have pondered on this myself many times, need to read the book of answears and I'll get back to you. I think the Bible says something about God being revealed to all? Why don't some of you scholars check it out. I'll try to as well
 
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ZiSunka

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1.)She doesn't like the idea of some book telling you what is right and wrong.

I'd rather have a book that's been around 6000 years that's been tested by time tell me what to do that to look to a stranger or my own brain tell me what to do. I challenge your friend to read the book of Proverbs and see if they find any stuff that they think is bad advice.
 
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the_man

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1.  Relative morality, we cannot live like that.  Whenever I'm talking to someone that believes in relative morals and so on, I like to give them an example like that which CS Lewis uses in his book "Mere Christianity"  (good read by the way).   Basically, you hear people everywhere in arguments and conversations saying "that is not fair" or "i was hear first" as if holding the situation at hand to some higher stand.  I asked a friend of mine (who believed in relative morals/truth), that if he was really hungry, and just got some food from, set it down, ready to eat, but wait he forgot napkins.  So he gets up, to get napkins, comes back and the food is gone.  He looks up and someone is running off with his food, what does he do?  Like any hungry man, he said he'd chase the guy down.  Then I asked him why?  He went along the lines of saying that, someone stole his food, and that is wrong.  What if the person told him, to hell with his morals, he is going by his own, what would he do...I won't go into what he said he'd do but the fact is this.  The person that stole the food wouldn't disregard his morals cos he too holds those morals at some level (despite the fact that he stole).  I went on to ask my mate, if he went to a village in africa.  They haven't seen a person outside their tribe.  You walk into a hut, pick a guys baby and start to leave...the guy is just coming home from hunting, spots you making off with the baby, what do you think will happen?  As this man appeals to you (my friend) for making of with his baby and you (my friend) appeals to the person making off with the food, both of you are appealing to some standard of some sort.  Some standard that my friend expects the food thief to know and so also some standard that this african man (in the village, who hasn't seen any person outside the village) to know about.  And the food thief is not going to tell you that you are crazy, he's following his on morals.  Neither are you going to tell the father of the baby you are about to make off with, that he can take his morals and cram it...you get the picture.  There is some standard, some set of morals that all human beings (regardless of where they are from) know about.  We cannot live without this standard. 

2.  I'm wrestling with this question, not because I don't know why we need to be saved.  But there are some questions about the person that need to be answered in order to get a good approach that they would understand.  What I mean is that I cannot start talking about God to someone who doesn't believe in such a "being".  Questions like what their thoughts are on Christ.  If they believe there is a God or "higher power"  and stuff like that.  Could you fill us in a little bit more on your friend? 

If I were to start a conversation with the person, it would go something like...following on question one, we know that there is a certain standard of morals/truths that all (mentally stable) human beings abide by regardless of where they come from.  However, how many of us can say that we have followed this standard all our lives?  That we are above this standard of "goodness".  Nobody has, despite knowing what the standard is, nobody has followed the standard all their lives.  Depending on where you friend is coming from, I'd introduce the exception of Christ or continue to lead them to this introduction. 

3.  This is what I believe.  Only God knows who is going to enter the kingdom of Heaven and who is not.  So you have to ask yourself a question, do we (Christian) human beings really want to take on the task of figuring out who goes to heaven and who doesn't?  I'd suggest we pass on this, not because we are afraid of it, but it is like asking "what was before God?" or "how did God make the heavens and the earth out of nothing?"  These questions, are not determining to our faith IMO (i.e. knowledge of these will/should not make you believe in God anymore than you do right now.   
 
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taps

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3) Romans 1:18-21
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessnes and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ince what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has mad it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

1 & 2) I don't know what level of belief your friend is on but I can tell you what I say to my friends. No matter how perfect people seem on the outside they have flaws on the inside which cause them pain. Introduce them to someone who will make their pain disappear, pain from abuse, lonliness, regret, something. Prayer and the Holy Spirit will reveal to you what your friend needs to hear to come to God. Also the way you live your live is probably the greatest testimony you can give her. Someone once told me, "People can't see God but they can see God in you." Live according to the Holy Spirit, be like Christ and that will be the greatest explanation for your faith.
When you say "saved" you mean saved from Hell or seperation from God. If anyone doesn't want to pay the penalty for their sins then they need to be saved.
Tell her how being saved is so very simple, it is accepting a gift. Help her realize the importance of this gift so she can fully appreciate it. She will also need to know that since she's now saved, she needs to represent Christ in all areas of her life and the reading the Bible is key to know what God wants from us.

I'm praying for you bobbygolucky. God Bless
 
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bobbygolucky

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I will have to study what you have said and talk to her again before I can really tell you more of what she thinks, because I do not know myself.

She has mentioned that she does believe everything happens for a reason. "I don't know what I believe, but I do believe that everything happens for a reason." So it seems like she definitely believes in a higher power of some sort, but doesn't understand necessarily why we need to search hard to find out what it is.

I think she is kind of struggling with something that I once struggled with, and still tickles my mind every once and awhile. That is how to reason why we should praise a being in the highest, and beg for his forgiveness and help, when it was he who put us here in the first place. To relate it to the way I used to compare it and probably similar to what others struggle with... Say you have someone, maybe a parent, or just a stranger... whoever really. And they carry you out into deeps waters knowing you can't swim, and toss you in. Now they expect you to praise them with compliments and then see you as a hero if you step in and rescue them. Why are they the hero if they threw you into the situation in the first place.

I understand... I mean I don't have the perfect answer for someone except that he gave us this amazing gift of life and the chance to experience love and choose our path... a chance to LIVE... and to know what you have, you have to have the bad with the good to develop appreciation. He gave you the chance to live, and all he's asking for is for you to obey him and be grateful to him. In lamens terms obviously.

Night Peeps,
Bob
 
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Homie

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by the_man
I'd suggest we pass on this, not because we are afraid of it, but it is like asking "what was before God?" or "how did God make the heavens and the earth out of nothing?"
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you brother. The question presented by bobbygolucky is of a different sort than your examples. Your examples are questions of infinity, another example is "What is beyond the universe", "what are the smallest particles made of? Easy, the answear is X, then what is X made up of?" etc...These questions are questions humanity will never understand, because we have a block, we just cannot comprehend eternity. Just look at the "alternative" to the Creation, the Big Bang. It answears nothing! Where did the matter and energy that blew up come from? God made us less intelligent than himself, if we could comprehend eternity we would be on a whole different "level". I also disagree with this statement:
i.e. knowledge of these will/should not make you believe in God anymore than you do right now
These questions strenghtened my faith. Because it became so clear to me, so obvious, that God MUST exist! Take these impossible questions and apply the notion of a God to them and it makes sense, God is the only possible option. What was before God you ask? Nothing. God's definition is that he is omnipotent, even atheist scientist Einstein found that there MUST be an omnipotent being.

The question bobby poses is about "what is fair", a moral question. God is fair, so why would he do something unfair?

Thx for providing us with the scriptures Romans 1:18-21, taps. That was what I was thinking about. But it raises another just as difficult question:
Are we not required to believe in His Son to be saved? Will people that believe in ONE God and try to follow these "standards/morals" as the_man spoke about (which are revealed by God)? Will muslims, jews be saved?
Since He has revealed himself to all of man, so any man can be d*mned (even those that have never heard of Jesus), then logically any man can be saved as well (even those that have never heard of Jesus). Or else it would be unfair, and God is not unfair, it is not just not his way! When I think about it, it sort of makes sense, I mean: Then the people before Jesus would have the chanse to be saved as well. Does anybody have answears or thoughts about this? (I hope I am not thread-jacking your thread bobby. It is just that the answear of one question leads to another question)
 
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the_man

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Originally posted by Homie
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you brother. The question presented by bobbygolucky is of a different sort than your examples. Your examples are questions of infinity, another example is "What is beyond the universe", "what are the smallest particles made of? Easy, the answear is X, then what is X made up of?" etc...These questions are questions humanity will never understand, because we have a block, we just cannot comprehend eternity. Just look at the "alternative" to the Creation, the Big Bang. It answears nothing! Where did the matter and energy that blew up come from? God made us less intelligent than himself, if we could comprehend eternity we would be on a whole different "level". I also disagree with this statement:

Fair enough (that you disagree).&nbsp;&nbsp; While this may not be an infinity question it, to answer it (IMO) puts us in the "seat" of God (as judge) (which is why I compared it to the infinity questions, that is, knowing the answer to this question implies a certain knowledge that I believe only God possess).&nbsp; That was what I was really saying&nbsp;brother.&nbsp;

Originally posted by Homie
These questions strenghtened my faith. Because it became so clear to me, so obvious, that God MUST exist! Take these impossible questions and apply the notion of a God to them and it makes sense, God is the only possible option. What was before God you ask? Nothing. God's definition is that he is omnipotent, even atheist scientist Einstein found that there MUST be an omnipotent being.

The question bobby poses is about "what is fair", a moral question. God is fair, so why would he do something unfair?

Again, fair enough.&nbsp; The God I know does not owe us an explanation for His actions (in this case whether He is fair or not) because He is God.&nbsp; Before you start throwing stones, let me clarify.&nbsp; What I mean is the God I know is not fair but merciful.&nbsp; We are all sinners and if our God was fair, which one of us could say we deserve His love (that's fairness right? those that deserve His love receives it and those that dont' don't, right?).&nbsp; Romans 5:8.&nbsp; If&nbsp;He was fair, we'd all be in trouble.&nbsp; So (IMO) God does not owe us fairness, He loves us and is a Just God.&nbsp; By the way, I think faith does not need logical proofs (i.e. if God is fair or not) because of the very definition of faith.&nbsp; But perhaps your belief/understanding would be strengthened.&nbsp; &nbsp;
 
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taps

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To Homie:
Someone once told me that God can read the hearts of all men. I believe there is scripture to support that but it doesn't come to mind right now. Since God can read all hearts he can judge wheather or not someone who never heard the gospel, would believe if they were presented with the gospel.
People who have heard the true gospel will be judged accordingly. Did they reject me or accept me? The more you know the more the more you will be held accountable for.

To Bobby:
Something your friend needs to realize is the severity of sin. Any sin is horrible, and God can see it on us. Sin is so ugly and horrible, God's pure eyes can not even look at it.
Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong.
The Hebrew priest had to be ceremonially clean before entering the presence of God, they had to go through elaborate process to be in his presence once a year. Read Leviticus (seems like torture, I know) and everything the preist and the laymen had to do in order for God to come into their presence, that's some serious stuff.
 
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taps

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To Bobby:
About the pool analogy, God didn't throw us into it, Adam and Eve jumped in willingly, ignoring God's warning. Now it is up to God to pull us out or "save" us. We continue to jump into pools we cannot get ourselves out of.
I agree sometimes God puts us into a pool we can not get out of ourselves. That is so he can demonstrate his power and mercy when he pulls us back out.
If I were you I would pray for God to throw me in a situation that hopeless, a situation only God himself can pull me out of, so that the glory of God shown through your life.
 
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GodOwnsMe

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phew.... I think I came over some cool verses like ..........uh.... Jesus will be preached to those who lived when Noah lived....... something like that gotta chack it's in some letter in the New Testament I think !! :)
Well.... mmmmmhhhh God's holy so basically any lie, uh being mad at someone, shouting at them etc etc
divides you from Him....... (Jesus siad something like what people do/think makes them unclean before God)
and we can't be together with Him like that...........................
there's a reason God even send His son to die a horrible death to reconcile is with Him, so we need forgiveness....

Ya know God created the world prefect but men screwed up, He gave everything for us, so we can be really really thankful :):)
 
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Homie

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Someone once told me that God can read the hearts of all men. I believe there is scripture to support that but it doesn't come to mind right now. Since God can read all hearts he can judge wheather or not someone who never heard the gospel, would believe if they were presented with the gospel.
People who have heard the true gospel will be judged accordingly. Did they reject me or accept me? The more you know the more the more you will be held accountable for.
So basically we all disagree with the preacher that bobby spoke of who claimed that everybody who was never given a chanse to hear the gospel would be d*amned (Why did they ban that biblical word?). So taps (or anybody with an opinion on the matter), could e.g. a Muslim be saved, or an atheist? I'm still confused.

the_man
knowing the answer to this question implies a certain knowledge that I believe only God possess
Now I follow your line of thinking. I just do not consider the question bobby presented impossible to understand (yet very difficult).

The God I know does not owe us an explanation for His actions (in this case whether He is fair or not) because He is God
I agree.
What I mean is the God I know is not fair but merciful
Can he not be both? Being fair (by my understanding of the word) means to treat equal. Example: If 2 men were on trial for committing the same crime, exactly the same way, with the same intent, with the same malice etc...It would not be unfair for the judge to pardon the criminals. But it would be unfair if he pardoned one and not the other.

God does not owe us fairness, He loves us and is a Just God
Just/fair, same thing isn't it?
By the way, I think faith does not need logical proofs (i.e. if God is fair or not) because of the very definition of faith
I fully agree.
But perhaps your belief/understanding would be strengthened.
Exactly! It showed my that God is true no matter how you look at it, even logically.
 
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the_man

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Originally posted by Homie
So basically we all disagree with the preacher that bobby spoke of who claimed that everybody who was never given a chanse to hear the gospel would be d*amned (Why did they ban that biblical word?). So taps (or anybody with an opinion on the matter), could e.g. a Muslim be saved, or an atheist? I'm still confused.

Can he not be both? Being fair (by my understanding of the word) means to treat equal. Example: If 2 men were on trial for committing the same crime, exactly the same way, with the same intent, with the same malice etc...It would not be unfair for the judge to pardon the criminals. But it would be unfair if he pardoned one and not the other.


Just/fair, same thing isn't it?

In some cases yes just and fair would be the same thing.&nbsp; When I think fair, I think of a set of rules that everyone follows by and everyone knows.&nbsp; When I think just, I'm thinking we don't necessarily know the rules but we believe the outcome is acceptable.&nbsp; Hope I didn't confuse.&nbsp; That is why I say that when we say fair, well do we know the "rules" that God is going to use in his criteria of judging each individual?&nbsp; I don't think we do (or ever will), but I'm willing to learn.&nbsp;
 
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Bob,

The questions your friend asked are not uncommon, as I'm sure you already know.&nbsp; I'll give you my best shot...

Originally posted by bobbygolucky
1.)She doesn't like the idea of some book telling you what is right and wrong.

This question makes a lot of sense if you reduce the Bible down to just a set of 'rules'.&nbsp; Going by that, our society replies "what makes your morals better than mine, or anyone else's for that matter?"

The answer is that the "book" isn't the authority -- the One who inspired it is.&nbsp; (note I did not say the author.)&nbsp; The Bible is just ink on paper -- it's a collection of letters from God to man.&nbsp; Really, it's nothing more or less than that.&nbsp; To appreciate the power of the "book", you must first believe in its author.&nbsp; Otherwise, it's just another self help manual, and not a very efficient one at that.

She thinks people should just come up with their own morals that fit them. See she has great morals... lives by many of the same ones christians do...

This is the popular sentiment of people who believe human beings are basically 'good' from birth.&nbsp; What she doesn't realize is that left up to ourselves with no accountability, we will pursue every desire we have to the fullest until there is a significant enough consequence to stop, which is totally up to the individual to determine.&nbsp; That is a truth about human nature&nbsp;that is presented in the Bible.&nbsp; Without the authority of God to be accountable, the only authority left is government, which (in this country) is manipulated by the people for the most part.&nbsp; The belief that 'majority rule' is always right, isn't.&nbsp; Just because a belief or action is popular, doesn't necessarily mean it will serve the common good.

There will always be people breaking the laws, she says.

That is the answer to her&nbsp;point about government being the&nbsp;moral answer.&nbsp; For the most part,&nbsp;some level of justice is served&nbsp;by our law enforcement community and court system, but not always.&nbsp; It is imperfect because&nbsp;of&nbsp;a general lack of perception.&nbsp; God is not lacking.&nbsp; His justice is perfect.&nbsp;

2.)Why does she need to be saved?

The short answer would be to&nbsp;show and explain to her the 10 commandments and probably Jesus'&nbsp;Sermon on the Mount.&nbsp;&nbsp;Then ask her if she has ever fallen short of any of it.&nbsp; She won't get past the first&nbsp;one.&nbsp; That's why she needs to be saved.&nbsp;

She gets through life just fine, is a good person, and doesn't have things she feels guilty about.

Again, the standard we're judged by is not the&nbsp;one we've set for ourselves -- it's the one God set for us.&nbsp; She doesn't feel guilt because she's looking around and saying "I'm better than that person," or "I don't break any laws," but I'm willing&nbsp;to bet she has.&nbsp; She just hasn't been caught.&nbsp;

3.)I've seen some extreme christian dude talking about how important it is to go preach to the third world countries or support a group that does. ...3rd world peoples who are starving and dying everyday often times never even once hear of the bible mentioned... and that its a shame because that means they are going to hell.

This is a fallacy.&nbsp; Romans 2 says that we are responsible for what we have been taught.&nbsp; Those who have not heard the Gospel will not be judged by it.&nbsp; The Bible says they will be judged by their thoughts and deeds, and their consciences will be their witness.&nbsp;

But here's where your friend's problem lies.&nbsp; She's never been to church, but she's heard at least some about God and Jesus.&nbsp; I can't imagine anyone who has spent more than a year in this country that has not heard of Jesus around Christmas or Easter at least.&nbsp; Her problem is not ignorance (which is somewhat excusable in God's eyes), but rejection.&nbsp; She rejects the notion she needs a Savior.&nbsp; She does not think she needs God.&nbsp; She thinks she's good enough on her own.&nbsp; That kind of thinking is the core of sin.

One misconception that many people have is they equate Jesus with the church.&nbsp; That's like defining health by looking at patients in a hospital.&nbsp; The problem is too many of the 'patients' are trying to convince people like your friend that they are healthy, instead of pointing them toward the Doctor.&nbsp;

Hope that clears some things up for you and your friend.&nbsp; Feel free to PM or email me if I can help either of you. :)
 
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