French Christians, Muslims, Jews rally against gay marriage

[awitch]

I'm not sure of the best way to describe it in secular terms. Marriage is a Covenant 2 people enter into with God Himself. God is a party to that, and He clearly excludes SSM as a possibility.

If those are the rules for Christians, then maybe Christians shouldn't choose to enter same sex marriages. Even if that were true, it's not the government's place to legally prevent them (and especially non-Christians) from doing so. That covenant is with God, and not the county clerk's office. You don't mail your $50 check to God and get a marriage license delivered by an angel.

I believe I've already gone over how this line of reasoning is insufficient justification for discrimination due to all of the non-Christians who get married, all of whom are sinners, just like Christians, if I remember correctly.

 

[awitch]

Of course, but one question before our Nation at the moment is, "is this progress?"

Women's suffrage was progress. Desegregation was progress. I wholeheartedly believe legalizing same sex marriage is progress, too. It has no negative effect on existing marriages, but secures the families of same sex parents, and actually boosts the economy which I think we all agree could need some boosting.

No one except my ex-wife, who was intolerable

A woman scorned hath no fury like my wife

 

[awitch]

Correction: it removes the freedom to raise children in a society with clear boundaries of right and wrong.

I'm a Witch. The Bible also says Witchcraft is wrong. And yet the Supreme Court recognizes Wicca (Witchcraft and Wicca were used interchangeably in the case) and here I am practicing my religion to my little heart's content and it's completely legal to do so.

How does that affect your ability to teach your kids what you believe to be clearly right or wrong? How is same sex marriage different than that?

 

[Zoness]

It doesnt threaten private Christianity at all.
.
But it does threaten their vision of a nation based on Christian morals.
.

That I am most certainly aware.

Can you explain to me why phobia is invoked? It's ludicrous.

Because it is at least a phobia to some, have you seen some of the things preachers say about gays? We don't have to go far....we can peruse CF for awhile and see what is being said, though the internet at large offers a much more...colorful vocabulary.

You mean this?

Its a just-so statement. I don't see it as having any merit at all, especially since the sciences were pioneered by those crediting God for their inspiration. What sort of response were you going for?

I was going to see if you were going to address the idea that even though scientists started as Christian men, the explosion of fundamentalism in the early 1900s as a result of liberalism is pointedly anti-science venture especially now in politics. Political leaders aren't regular religious adherents but they wouldn't say these things if they didn't sort of resound with the people.

How many posts on CF call "evolution and climate science a liberal conspiracy?" We can go dig up things all over CF alone...would you agree then that at least a large portion of Christians distrust science?

 

[seeking Christ]

I believe I've already gone over how this line of reasoning is insufficient justification for discrimination

And I'm sure you've been exposed to the opinion that considering SSM an "equal right" is bat guano crazy to many, but it is asking for a special right that never before existed. And why? What will it accomplish? Besides stirring up strife, I mean.

Why not just tackle the legal battle that can be easily won? Go for the rights people care about, not some silly word "marriage" that doesn't mean anything to secularists anyway.

 

[seeking Christ]

Women's suffrage was progress. Desegregation was progress.

Agreed.

actually boosts the economy which I think we all agree could need some boosting.

How does SSM boost the economy?

 

[seeking Christ]

I'm a Witch. The Bible also says Witchcraft is wrong.

I seriously doubt you practice anything the Bible refers to as witchcraft. I doubt you ever will, or that you want to.

How does that affect your ability to teach your kids what you believe to be clearly right or wrong? How is same sex marriage different than that?

Teaching and learning are 2 different things. Kids can quite readily grow up to mock their parents you know. Rarely are they better for it. You're tampering with a fundamental aspect of our society that has never been tampered with before, and I think its reckless to proceed without some caution.

 

[Zoness]

word "marriage" that doesn't mean anything to secularists anyway.

There are lots of married people who don't associate with a church or religion who appreciate their marriages and have an incredible bond together, that's quite an assertion you make.

 

[seeking Christ]

Because it is at least a phobia to some, have you seen some of the things preachers say about gays?

the explosion of fundamentalism in the early 1900s as a result of liberalism is pointedly anti-science venture

would you agree then that at least a large portion of Christians distrust science?

I don't know where you're getting your information from but I don't see anything like that anywhere, and fundamentalism is something quite distinct from the way you are using that word. IIRC the movement started in the 50's or later, and it was ecumenicism; an attempt to identify those things all Christians hold in common - "the fundamentals."

You're talking about something else entirely, and the % of Christians (or anyone else) that distrusts science is tiny, and ignorant of what science is. Now questioning motives? That's entirely different.

Same with this "homophobia" nonsense. You should be more concerned with gay bashing than you are anyone being afraid.

 

[Zoness]

I don't know where you're getting your [information from but I don't see anything like that anywhere,

In Churches Across The Country, Far-Right Pastors Preach Anti-Gay Hate And Violence | ThinkProgress

To be fair, I am not a fan of that site but it did collect at least a few actual cases. Some sound bytes worth a listen, I will aggregate more here in the future if you'd like to see. I absolutely do not agree that this doesn't exist. Based on your terms used below, this is specifically gay bashing...but why would people bash others so much if they didn't fear them? Islam is another popular subject in this area.

and fundamentalism is something quite distinct from the way you are using that word. IIRC the movement started in the 50's or later, and it was ecumenicism; an attempt to identify those things all Christians hold in common - "the fundamentals."

Thank you for clarifying this, I genuinely did not know. However, the fundamentalism of the 50s not the same thing as today. Would you agree with the majority content posted in this subforum? http://www.christianforums.com/f370/

You're talking about something else entirely, and the % of Christians (or anyone else) that distrusts science is tiny, and ignorant of what science is. Now questioning motives? That's entirely different.

Motivations of what? Science? Science doesn't exist to prove your God false, but the church taking an anti-intellectual approach to it certainly isn't bringing in youth people. I can see why they are suspicious of some groups but let's not confuse the scientific community with the reddit-style New Atheism that seems to be growing in popularity.

Same with this "homophobia" nonsense. You should be more concerned with gay bashing than you are anyone being afraid.

Gay bashing is just a symptom of homophobia and peoples fears are not of my concern, that is their personal territory. The more homophobia manifests, the more you see gay bashing and the paranoid idea of a "gay agenda".

 

[seeking Christ]

it did collect at least a few actual cases. Some sound bytes worth a listen, I will aggregate more here in the future if you'd like to see.

Not a one says anything like what you have portrayed. We could discuss the difference if you'd like.

I absolutely do not agree that this doesn't exist. Based on your terms used below, this is specifically gay bashing

The closest thing to gay bashing in any of those examples is admonishing parents to actually discipline their children, but not via anything seen as abusive a few decades ago. Again, your depiction is WAY off.

...but why would people bash others so much if they didn't fear them?

Reverse the question: you don't bash who you're afraid of. You bash (or bully) those who you feel can't possibly stand up to you. If there were actual fear involved you'd see death by sniper shots, rather than the type of violent bashing we have.

Thank you for clarifying this, I genuinely did not know. However, the fundamentalism of the 50s not the same thing as today.

I'm advocating for correct usage of terms. You seem to be complaining of extremism, not the fundamentalist movement within Christianity. Others have agreed that a good descriptor of extremism is when
laws are broken. Do you agree?

Would you agree with the majority content posted in this subforum? http://www.christianforums.com/f370/

I don't agree with much of anything I stumble upon on the internet Our "congregational safe houses" here are supposed to be for fellowship, but most of our great posters have been chased off and anymore what we mostly have is pointless strife. Further, for all the ruckus non Christians like to make about all the different divisions within Christianity, if you read these denominational sub-forums for a while, you see there's really little to nothing to those divisions and people are people.

Motivations of what? Science? Science doesn't exist to prove your God false,

You do realize this is a strawman?

 

[awitch]

And I'm sure you've been exposed to the opinion that considering SSM an "equal right" is bat guano crazy to many, but it is asking for a special right that never before existed. And why? What will it accomplish? Besides stirring up strife, I mean.

How is the right special? They wouldn't have any other rights or benefits that heterosexual married couples have, and having those same rights as every other citizen has 0 negative impact.

Why not just tackle the legal battle that can be easily won? Go for the rights people care about, not some silly word "marriage" that doesn't mean anything to secularists anyway.

Why do you think marriage doesn't mean anything to non-Christians? I believe the Bible Belt has the highest divorce rates and I've been married almost 14 years.

 

[awitch]

How does SSM boost the economy?

Here's a study from UCLA, specifically about Iowa.

 

[Mess]

Actually I think the whole same right thing for homosexuals is rubbish. They have the same rights, they can marry someone from the opposite sex, just like the next person. They simply choose not to, that is their own responsibility. Don't like my society to go down the path of ungodlyness, even if it has already done so. Good for the french for not just taking this garbage that's being shoved down their throats.

 

[awitch]

Good for the french for not just taking this garbage that's being shoved down their throats.

Do you support the bill in Uganda that calls for life imprisonment for being gay?
What about the law in Russia and the Ukraine that imprisons people for simply advocating for gay rights?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Here is my take on the matter.

Marriage is traditionally a public affair. You can get to a relationship with someone, but when you want it to be an official commitment that society embraces and recognizes, you get married. Otherwise, you can just make a promise to one another, without the whole ceremony etc. The fact is you want society to recognize the union and accept the bond between the members.

Now society has for a long time not accept the union between homosexuals.

To make marriage permitted, is not simply a matter of allowing two men to have a relationship, but for the public to acknowledge it and embrace it.

As we know, the holy books, condemn homosexuality. It's one thing for you to believe in homosexual marriage, it's another to force it on the majority to accept.

For a reason, homosexuality, has been in the large part, rejected by past and current society and culture.

 

[durangodawood]

Actually I think the whole same right thing for homosexuals is rubbish. They have the same rights, they can marry someone from the opposite sex, just like the next person. They simply choose not to, that is their own responsibility. Don't like my society to go down the path of ungodlyness, even if it has already done so. Good for the french for not just taking this garbage that's being shoved down their throats.

The meaningful right is to marry the adult you love and are committed to.
.
That right is not equally shared.
.

 

[All Englands Skies]

And me, a sad duck. But on the bright side, the big three religions can always put aside their differences and unite in their dislike of gay people and the fight to keep them as second class citizens. And apparently the French will help them, too.

What makes one duck sad, makes another duck happy!

Honestly though, I think religeous folk should leave society too it, aslong as there aint gay marriage in Churches, let the rest of society do what it wants.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Christians don't like it when gays get "married" because it makes their ceremonies seem less relevant. It's easier in a church to say during conservation: "oh look at that gay couple and their nice little civil union" with the tone and inflection implying that they are less than a couple because of verbiage.

It doesnt make it less relevent though, if one is Christian, its still highly relevent.

As for non-Christians, a Christian ceremony has never been relevent to them.

So it doesnt make it less relevent, as its as relevent as the people in question want it to be.

 

[Supreme]

What makes one duck sad, makes another duck happy!

Honestly though, I think religeous folk should leave society too it, aslong as there aint gay marriage in Churches, let the rest of society do what it wants.

I think that the Church should always play a part in society and its issues and problems- whether they be drug abuse, racism or poverty, the Church should always play an active role. Jesus did teach us, after all, that everyone and anyone is our neighbour whom we must love.