Freewill vitally important to Christian Doctrine

FutureAndAHope

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There are a lot of ideas out there floating around about, free will vs determinism, and some of the Calvinistic thinking, that denies man's responsibility for salvation makes God sound like a monster. I tried thinking that way once and it made me sick to my stomach. But the good news for those who like the idea of salvation being a choice given to man is that the earliest Church Fathers believed in free will. The following from the earliest Church Fathers, states in plain speech, that free will is what God has given man. So you can not be confused I have put it all here in verbose format, no pulling small quotes. This was from Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38


Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I believe it is possible to resist God's grace.
Yes, it is possible. But in what sense do you mean (just to clarify)? The previous quotes strongly support the idea that God offers "goodwill" toward all people (not just a select few as ideas like some forms of Calvanism suggest), and it is man who chooses to accept or reject that goodwill.

A person must accept the nature of Christ, to be saved. We must be "Holy as He is Holy", at least making an effort to be so.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Within me there is a power that judges my deeds and is able to punish evil deeds and reward good ones.
The conscience is solid evidence that I have a will with the freedom to make self determining moral choices.
 
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martymonster

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There are a lot of ideas out there floating around about, free will vs determinism, and some of the Calvinistic thinking, that denies man's responsibility for salvation makes God sound like a monster. I tried thinking that way once and it made me sick to my stomach. But the good news for those who like the idea of salvation being a choice given to man is that the earliest Church Fathers believed in free will. The following from the earliest Church Fathers, states in plain speech, that free will is what God has given man. So you can not be confused I have put it all here in verbose format, no pulling small quotes. This was from Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38


Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.


So much human reasoning. I agree that the doctrine of freewill is required by the Church, but it is not required for the doctrine of Christ. It is required by the Church, because the Church has the doctrine of eternal punishment. It's true that if you take away the doctrine of freewill, but have the doctrine of eternal punishment, that makes God out to be a complete monster, however, if you don't have the doctrine of eternal punishment, then you are free to just believe what scripture says on the subject.


Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Definitions needed.

Free will can be defined from an ability to choose between coffee or tea in the morning to some absurd ideas that we are always neutral to all options no matter the state we are currently in.

The context of those statements is talking about the ability to choose, good resulting in eternal life. Or evil resulting in, unproductive death. It is clear that the writer, addresses heresy, as the title suggests.

"Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad".
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So much human reasoning. I agree that the doctrine of freewill is required by the Church, but it is not required for the doctrine of Christ. It is required by the Church, because the Church has the doctrine of eternal punishment. It's true that if you take away the doctrine of freewill, but have the doctrine of eternal punishment, that makes God out to be a complete monster, however, if you don't have the doctrine of eternal punishment, then you are free to just believe what scripture says on the subject.


Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

What? Hell is real get over it, preach it.

We need human reasoning, research, and looking things up.

Act 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Not just believing some church, or preacher. I can't stomach Calvinism, at least in a deterministic sense, I don't believe I would be a Christian if Calvinism was true. How many other people leave the church due to it I can only guess.

As many key proponents of free will emphasize, so too does the early Church Father, starting his discourse with the scripture:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
 
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trophy33

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The context of those statements is talking about the ability to choose, good resulting in eternal life.
Does somebody who is healthy have the same ability to understand and accept the gospel as somebody who is mentally disabled?

Does somebody who has exceptionally high sexual hormones level have the same ability to live a holy life as somebody who has low levels and is practically asexual?

Does somebody who is a sociopath or a psychopath have the same ability to love others as other people?

Does somebody who had an abusive or no father have the same ability to accept the God as a father as somebody who had an ideal one?

And the questions of the similar manner could go on and on.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Does somebody who is healthy have the same ability to understand and accept the gospel as somebody who is mentally disabled?

Yes they do. I have had the honor to be with many disabled people, and believe me they know as well as us, how to be saved.

Does somebody who has exceptionally high sexual hormones level have the same ability to live a holy life as somebody who has low levels and is practically asexual?

1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
 
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martymonster

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What? Hell is real get over it, preach it.

We need human reasoning, research, and looking things up.

Act 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Not just believing some church, or preacher. I can't stomach Calvinism, at least in a deterministic sense, I don't believe I would be a Christian if Calvinism was true. How many other people leave the church due to it I can only guess.

As many key proponents of free will emphasize, so too does the early Church Father, starting his discourse with the scripture:

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


God's elect are his first fruits. First fruits implies that they are not his only fruits. What about the ingathering?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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There are a lot of ideas out there floating around about, free will vs determinism, and some of the Calvinistic thinking, that denies man's responsibility for salvation makes God sound like a monster. I tried thinking that way once and it made me sick to my stomach. But the good news for those who like the idea of salvation being a choice given to man is that the earliest Church Fathers believed in free will. The following from the earliest Church Fathers, states in plain speech, that free will is what God has given man. So you can not be confused I have put it all here in verbose format, no pulling small quotes. This was from Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38


Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
God's sovereignty includes His decision to give us free will.
Thanks for sharing!
Blessings
 
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DamianWarS

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There are a lot of ideas out there floating around about, free will vs determinism, and some of the Calvinistic thinking, that denies man's responsibility for salvation makes God sound like a monster. I tried thinking that way once and it made me sick to my stomach. But the good news for those who like the idea of salvation being a choice given to man is that the earliest Church Fathers believed in free will. The following from the earliest Church Fathers, states in plain speech, that free will is what God has given man. So you can not be confused I have put it all here in verbose format, no pulling small quotes. This was from Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38


Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
free will is somewhat of a misnomer. I don't think it's possible to make a choice that isn't influenced in some way. it makes my head hurt too much if I think about it too long but to assume God doesn't have a foreknowledge of our actions would seem to discredit him as God. the debate is summed up by "God is in control" vs "I'm in control". both have their merits and failings but I find overly dogmatic views aren't practical in our daily lives.
 
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Clare73

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There are a lot of ideas out there floating around about, free will vs determinism, and some of the Calvinistic thinking, that denies man's responsibility for salvation makes God sound like a monster. I tried thinking that way once and it made me sick to my stomach. But the good news for those who like the idea of salvation being a choice given to man is that the earliest Church Fathers believed in free will.
The following from the earliest Church Fathers, states in plain speech, that free will is what God has given man. So you can not be confused I have put it all here in verbose format, no pulling small quotes. This was from Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38
Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
Men are possessed of a limited free will, in that they do not have the power to choose (execute) all moral choices; e.g., man cannot choose to be sinless, to never sin in thought, word or deed.

However, man has free will in the Biblical sense: the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint.
But man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he prefers, likes.

The issue here being unregenerate man (without the Holy Spirit) does not "prefer or like" the things of God (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14) and, therefore, he does not and will not choose them.
and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
Correct.

What is true is that all unregenerate men (no Holy Spirit) are by nature fallen, corrupt (Romans 8:7-8), condemned (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that those who receive, believe and obey the gospel are saved from the condemnation in which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is true is that "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

What is true is that "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God.
The issue is not power, the issue is preference.
Fallen, corrupt, unregenerate man does not prefer nor like the things of God and will not freely choose what he does not prefer nor like.
For there is no coercion with God,
Indeed!

God accomplishes his purposes, not by coercion, but by working in the disposition (heart) of unregenerate man, giving him to prefer the things of God, which man then freely and voluntarily without external force or constraint chooses of his own free will.

God does not violate the free will of unregenerate man, God uses the free will of unregenerate man to bring man to himself.
but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice
The issue is not "power" of choice, the issue is "preference" of choice, which preference determines the choice.
Unregenerate man's preference must be changed in order for him to freely choose the things of God.
(for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious,
but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart,
That is the heart (disposition) of unregenerate man which has not been given to prefer the things of God.
thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom_2:4, Rom_2:5, Rom_2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good,
All are made with an unregenerate fallen nature, none are by nature "good."
these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat_5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk_21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk_6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk_12:45, Luk_12:46; Mat_24:48, Mat_24:51)
All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.
Remembering that the issue is not power, the issue is preference. Unregenerate man chooses what he prefers.
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co_6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe_2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph_4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph_4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co_6:11)
If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
And again, remembering it is not about power, but preference.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate man) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he does not understand them, and they are foolishness to him," of which foolishness he wants no part.

Romans 8:7-8 - "the sinful mind (unregenerate man) is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

It cannot do so because what it prefers is so much stronger than the contrary.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Men are possessed of a limited free will, in that they do not have the power to choose (execute) all moral choices; e.g., man cannot choose to be sinless, to never sin in thought, word or deed.

However, man has free will in the Biblical sense: the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint.
But man's will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by his disposition; i.e., what he prefers, likes.

The issue here being unregenerate man (without the Holy Spirit) does not "prefer or like" the things of God (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14) and, therefore, he does not and will not choose them.

Correct.

What is true is that all unregenerate men (no Holy Spirit) are by nature fallen, corrupt (Romans 8:7-8), condemned (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that those who receive, believe and obey the gospel are saved from the condemnation in which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18).

What is true is that "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is true is that "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

What is true is that "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)
The issue is not power, the issue is preference.
Fallen, corrupt, unregenerate man does not prefer nor like the things of God and will not freely choose what he does not prefer nor like.
Indeed!

God accomplishes his purposes, not by coercion, but by working in the disposition (heart) of unregenerate man, giving him to prefer the things of God, which man then freely and voluntarily without external force or constraint chooses of his own free will.

God does not violate the free will of unregenerate man, God uses the free will of unregenerate man to bring man to himself.

The issue is not "power" of choice, the issue is "preference" of choice, which preference determines the choice.
Unregenerate man's preference must be changed in order for him to freely choose the things of God.

That is the heart (disposition) of unregenerate man which has not been given to prefer the things of God.

All are made with an unregenerate fallen nature, none are by nature "good."

Remembering that the issue is not power, the issue is preference. Unregenerate man chooses what he prefers.

And again, remembering it is not about power, but preference.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - "The man without the Spirit (unregenerate man) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he does not understand them, and they are foolishness to him," of which foolishness he wants no part.

Romans 8:7-8 - "the sinful mind (unregenerate man) is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

It cannot do so because what it prefers is so much stronger than the contrary.

You have put a lot of work into trying to discredit a bishop who was closer to the apostles than you or me. He is revered by the church for his work against heresy, and he starts his discourse with:

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37)
A key scripture used by all who stand for genuine free will regarding man's salvation.

You stated:

What is true is that "no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

What is true is that "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

What is true is that "I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

True, but who does God enable:

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The free will choice is a choice to receive the light that God gives, or hide it away in sins.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

But who does God give light to?

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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free will is somewhat of a misnomer. I don't think it's possible to make a choice that isn't influenced in some way. it makes my head hurt too much if I think about it too long but to assume God doesn't have a foreknowledge of our actions would seem to discredit him as God. the debate is summed up by "God is in control" vs "I'm in control". both have their merits and failings but I find overly dogmatic views aren't practical in our daily lives.

Freewill does not mean God can not control things. He can still put constraints on what choices are available to us.

Take the following quote from my website, it describes a possible way God does this.

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade, and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation, or game, the computer can essentially know with in a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster, and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, simplifies computation. For God to know every person, every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry
 
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Clare73

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You have put a lot of work into trying to discredit a bishop who was closer to the apostles than you or me. He is revered by the church for his work against heresy, and he starts his discourse with:

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat_23:37)
A key scripture used by all who stand for genuine free will regarding man's salvation.
You stated:
True, but who does God enable:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
The free will choice is a choice to receive the light that God gives, or hide it away in sins.
Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
But who does God give light to?
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
I am in complete agreement that all who perish, as well as all who are saved, are so by their own choice.
 
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DamianWarS

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Freewill does not mean God can not control things. He can still put constraints on what choices are available to us.

Take the following quote from my website, it describes a possible way God does this.

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade, and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation, or game, the computer can essentially know with in a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster, and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, simplifies computation. For God to know every person, every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry
is it possible to make a choice that is not influenced by something else?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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is it possible to make a choice that is not influenced by something else?

No, but is still possible for God to plan within such a system. The AI method that I mentioned can do such things, although it is hard for man, with God it is possible.

Just think of the complexities of the human body, amazingly complex, systems interdependent one upon another. If a simple human computer can model a planning system with free will elements, I am sure it is no feat for God.
 
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