Freewill and destiny

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Yes. It seems that the battle between Calvinism and Armininism rages on.

I don't care what Arminius said either, as far as I am concerned he was just a Calvinist Lite.

I sounds like both of them were more interested in just being TOTALLY different than Catholicism, it appears to be more the case of Rebellion against the Catholic Church than good Doctrine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Nah I don't think so, but thanks for trying.

You can't dress up Calvinism and make it fly.
Don't cop out.
Look at the teaching offered, do not worry about the label.
I do not think you can begin to refute it.
Try and see.
If you cannot refute it...maybe you need to believe it.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: ilovejcsog
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why don't you define the two for us briefly?
Found online.
Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

Calvinism centers on the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of the saints.

Arminianism emphasizes conditional election based on God's foreknowledge, man's free will through prevenient grace to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: ilovejcsog
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
After 6 pages I am still confused. I guess there is no hope for me until I die.:)
Could you clarify your question?
When I read the OP, it wasn't clear to me whether you were referring to biblical predestination vs free will, or a person's "destiny" as compared with departing from that path. ??? Like a person missing out on their potential, due to bad decisions.
 
Upvote 0

ilovejcsog

I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox
Jul 23, 2018
1,607
955
Phoenix
✟21,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
There are too many differing opinions for me to know the answer.
If our life is defined before we are born and we are not chosen for God then I don't know how hard a person not chosen can change things so that they can be of God.
If our lives are defined by God then where does free will come in. God has plans for us, our lives are mapped out, our destiny is mapped out so I can't see we have free will in that. Our will does not supersede Gods. I don't want people to be left out as Gods children if they want to be Gods. It seems like that would be hopeless for them. And yet some have said that there are some that are not chosen to be Gods.
That means they are the devils no matter what they do.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟803,026.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Where does our free will end and our preordained destiny begin? It seems they contradict each other. Or at the very least our freewill is limited.
Lots of things are predestined by God from the beginning and have or will take place, but that does not mean individuals before time began were personally predestined to do anything but could of the own free will done lots of things.

Salvation can be predestined from the beginning of time for all those that accept God’s charity, without impacting free will.

Predestination something that has not even happened for God is placing God in our time frame.

We can talk about our future being predestined by God, but as soon as we say our future is also future God’s future, we are limiting God by time. God does and will talk about things being in the future, but that is our future.

Christians talk about: “God being outside of time”, which is not beyond the thinking of the atheist or agnostic since:

For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and all experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative would time be for God, who possible even created “time”?

If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created, since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (This suggests God would be outside of time.)

There has also been hypothesized, with nothing being shown yet, that if time is “warped”, there could be possible “wormholes” or something like a wormhole going between two different times.

God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

This would present an alternative to how God has perfect foreknowledge:

It should not be hard for you to imagine time being relative and warped, since that is what science has been showing, so one way God would “know” everything is by God at the end of man’s time sending back the whole history of man (which includes all the free will choices man made [it is historic at that point]) to Himself at the beginning of time, so the God at the beginning of man’s time knows all man’s free will choices throughout time as purely historical events and not even God can change history.

So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).
 
Upvote 0

ilovejcsog

I am a Christian mutt. You can call me Rox
Jul 23, 2018
1,607
955
Phoenix
✟21,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
For now I am just going to believe it is the way ocon'clast says. Until there is another explanation that will give those who are doomed from the beginning at least one chance at being Gods child. I couldn't get through the last posters post, nor do I try when they are that long.
Thank you all for showing me how you feel about it.
Blessings
 
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Lots of things are predestined by God from the beginning and have or will take place, but that does not mean individuals before time began were personally predestined to do anything but could of the own free will done lots of things.

Salvation can be predestined from the beginning of time for all those that accept God’s charity, without impacting free will.

Predestination something that has not even happened for God is placing God in our time frame.

We can talk about our future being predestined by God, but as soon as we say our future is also future God’s future, we are limiting God by time. God does and will talk about things being in the future, but that is our future.

Christians talk about: “God being outside of time”, which is not beyond the thinking of the atheist or agnostic since:

For the last 100 years people have been trying to disprove “The Theory of Relativity” and yet nothing has disagreed with the theory and all experiments have supported relativity. If time is relative how relative would time be for God, who possible even created “time”?

If God is not outside of time and there is an infinite amount of time before man is created, then man has not been created, since an infinite amount of time has not finished? (This suggests God would be outside of time.)

There has also been hypothesized, with nothing being shown yet, that if time is “warped”, there could be possible “wormholes” or something like a wormhole going between two different times.

God could have his own sequencing of events, but God would not be limited by human time.

It is difficult to think about God being “outside of our time” with no before or after for God, but this subject requires us to think.

This would present an alternative to how God has perfect foreknowledge:

It should not be hard for you to imagine time being relative and warped, since that is what science has been showing, so one way God would “know” everything is by God at the end of man’s time sending back the whole history of man (which includes all the free will choices man made [it is historic at that point]) to Himself at the beginning of time, so the God at the beginning of man’s time knows all man’s free will choices throughout time as purely historical events and not even God can change history.

So how does God know for certainty what man will do in the future and still allow man to make free will choices; seems to be a dilemma, since the “future” is set by God knowing the future? The “future” is only “future” as far as man is concerned, since the future is set by being pure “history” as far as God is concerned. God is not forcing or setting man’s “future” free will choices, but it is man himself setting the man’s future, by the free will choices man “did make” in the future (which is history for God).
This post has nothing to do with biblically revealed truth.
 
Upvote 0

Steven Beck

Active Member
Mar 26, 2017
327
130
67
Australia
✟28,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Liberals
God viewed all mankind as fallen and condemned.
In mercy He elected a multitude of sinners to be saved.
Those elected are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.

Others not elected go on in sins and to the White Throne judgment.
They are passed over.

And you have a scripture for that?

Maybe you missed this scripture

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

whoever does not equal elected.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

So according to Calvinists God chooses some for salvation which directly contradicts 2Pet 3:9
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟803,026.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This post has nothing to do with biblically revealed truth.
I am explaining how you can have predestination, God complete foreknowledge and man still having free will, which is not voodoo science or unexplainable magic.
Why do you say: "Man cannot have free will"?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am explaining how you can have predestination, God complete foreknowledge and man still having free will, which is not voodoo science or unexplainable magic.
Why do you say: "Man cannot have free will"?
We should all go through our day today noticing all the choices we need to make.
Are we free to choose, or are we on a predetermined path?

There are no choices on a predetermined path. Water predictably runs downhill.
It has no ability of its own to run uphill. We use a pump to push water uphill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bling
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Steven Beck,

Hello SB,

And you have a scripture for that?

Yes, there are several


Maybe you missed this scripture

Not likely, but what is more likely is understand the verses that you do not, I will show you
2 Pet is written to the elect;
1pet1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:


Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

whoever does not equal elected
.

The funny thing is...whosoever is not even in the verse, lol go figure!

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

th




2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.[/QUOTE]

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is long suffering with the wicked until all the elect are saved. The letters are written to those elected....NOT ONE OF THOSE SPOKEN OF HERE[ELECT PERSONS YET TO BE SAVED] NOT ONE WILL BE LOST, GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANYONE OF THEM IS LOST [BOULEMAI]



So according to Calvinists God chooses some for salvation which directly contradicts 2Pet 3:9
So according to Calvinists who actually believe what is taught in scripture,
All that the Father gives to Jesus are going to be saved, Jn 6:37-44.
God is not willing [he has decreed, destined, and purposed] that none of them are lost,

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Hope this helps you!

 
Upvote 0

Steven Beck

Active Member
Mar 26, 2017
327
130
67
Australia
✟28,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Liberals
Not likely, but what is more likely is understand the verses that you do not, I will show you
2 Pet is written to the elect;
1pet1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

There is no direct quote linking election to salvation. :)

That quote from Peter links election AFTER choosing to follow Jesus. Read it very very carefully. Break it down into its component parts.
 
Upvote 0

Steven Beck

Active Member
Mar 26, 2017
327
130
67
Australia
✟28,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Liberals
The funny thing is...whosoever is not even in the verse, lol go figure!

Really?

Joh 3:16 ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Steven Beck,

[QUOTE]There is no direct quote linking election to salvation. :)
[/QUOTE]
Th

Sure there are.

That quote from Peter links election AFTER choosing to follow Jesus
.

It does not say that. It says elect to the Foreknowledge of God. God foreknows and elects sinners.

Read it very very carefully. Break it down into its component parts.
read it as carefully as you want, it does not change
 
Upvote 0

Steven Beck

Active Member
Mar 26, 2017
327
130
67
Australia
✟28,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Liberals
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Greek Concordance: πᾶς (pas) -- 96 Occurrences

John 3:16 Adj-NMS
GRK: ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων
NAS: Son, that whoever believes
KJV: Son, that whosoever believeth in
INT: he gave that everyone who believes

Pas, All, everyone,whoever,whosoever. They all work.
The "some guy" in the video, teaches Greek,knows Hebrew, and can read Arabic, to debate muslims..
But everyone should read your posts instead...yeah I got it:scratch::bow:
After all you have a Strongs concordance:doh:






 
Upvote 0