Freemason Handshake? Pope Francis and Nancy Pelosi Display Odd Handshake

JM

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What do you think? Is the Pope Catholic? Is it normal to have the most pro-abortion politicians to read during mass? Taylor Marshall seems to think the Roman Catholic Church is full of Masonic philosophy and actually Freemasonry.


What do you think?

jm
 

Pavel Mosko

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What do you think?

jm

I have heard from a Catholic friend talking about the influence of the Masons in even Catholicism, so it is possible. It is hard for me to fathom that sort of thing, given all those fraternal lodge organizations have been in sharp decline for the last few generations. But the Masons seemed to be the real life version of the Illuminati that were infiltrating almost every Church, institution, government and western country. It's interesting how many Churches have negative references to them in their Catechism and other dogmatic teaching that they are a false religion etc. Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox probably most orthodox Protestants.
 
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Abaxvahl

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What do you think? Is the Pope Catholic? Is it normal to have the most pro-abortion politicians to read during mass? Taylor Marshall seems to think the Roman Catholic Church is full of Masonic philosophy and actually Freemasonry.


What do you think?

jm

I think Taylor Marshall is an anti-Catholic and yes the Pope is Catholic. There is nothing Masonic about the Pope or Church teaching.
 
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Albion

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It's interesting how many Churches have negative references to them in their Catechism and other dogmatic teaching that they are a false religion etc. Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox probably most orthodox Protestants.
The Catholic opposition to Freemasonry is mainly based upon the Papacy's effort to maintain her ability to 'make or break' governments. Especially during the 19th century, the Vatican was fast losing what remained of that former status while national unity movements, popular sovereignty, free elections, and etc. made big gains and were supported by the Masonic organizations which were themselves patriotic, democratic, constitutional, and egalitarian in principle.

Protestantism is divided on the matter of Freemasonry, but those denominations which have decided to denounce Masonry, generally only in very recent years, made almost no investigation into the claims that were voiced by some delegates to their national conventions. I guess that a perfunctory and non-binding resolution passed in convention was an easy way to get past the issue.
 
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anna ~ grace

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I think Taylor Marshall is an anti-Catholic and yes the Pope is Catholic. There is nothing Masonic about the Pope or Church teaching.

Taylor’s Catholic, but he’s something of a celebrity commentator who uses pessimism, conspiracy, and an appeal to Tradition (not a bad thing, but still) to perhaps unintentionally divide people, and to get listeners. Concern for this Papacy is appropriate, but should take the form of prayer, fasting, mortification, and simply being faithful and holy in one’s daily life. And staying within the Church.

Folks can “conservative” themselves right out of fellowship with Christ through His Church. And the internet can sadly accelerate this likelihood.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Protestantism is divided on the matter of Freemasonry, but those denominations which have decided to denounce Masonry, generally only in very recent years, made almost no investigation into the claims that were voiced by some delegates to their national conventions. I guess that a perfunctory and non-binding resolution passed in convention was an easy way to get past the issue.

But I think it is more than that. There is a message of "All Religions lead to God" etc. where some of your groups like the Shriners etc. have the Holy Books of all the major religions on their altar. They can be Unitarian in the non-Arian use of the term. That is a major deal breaker for any traditional Christian that wants exclusivity for Christ etc. it goes beyond things like how the Church Fathers had admiration for the ancient Roman and Hellenic Philosophers etc. Anyway that reason is why I know Lutherans, and Catholics at least are against the lodges.
 
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Albion

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But I think it is more than that. There is a message of "All Religions lead to God" etc.
That isn't a belief or teaching of Masonry.

where some of your groups like the Shriners etc. have the Holy Books of all the major religions on their altar.
I think you'll find that the Holy Bible is the standard in all Masonic organizations BUT if a member happens to be a monotheist of a different religion, I'm told that his sacred book is allowed to be placed there.

They can be Unitarian in the non-Arian use of the term.
Monotheism is a requirement, and most Unitarians these days are not theists, but sure, if a member of a Unitarian Universalist church is a believer in God as Unitarians and Universalists once did, then he's eligible.

That is a major deal breaker for any traditional Christian that wants exclusivity for Christ etc.
Why exactly? We don't fuss if a member of Rotary or the Chamber of Commerce or the Elks or the NRA or the Democratic Party happens to be a non-Christian, do we? Does anyone who is interested in participating with any of these associations make the entire membership pass your test before he considers joining?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Why exactly?

Well in my old Lutheran denomination (which seems to be the attitude of other places like the Coptic church)

1) It was considered like having a separate parallel religion that is at odds with Christianity. And that kind of thing I think was made more serious on how into the lodges previous generations were much more into them than their church, and often adopting their beliefs, especially the Shriners folks.


2) There is a Lutheran belief that dates back to Irenaeus, where the Church Father warned against praying with heretics etc. That when you do that share in their belief, because you are one body etc. and it even reminds me of saint Paul warning against greeting apostate people (Don't do that because the greeting can look like condoning whatever bad behavior or heresy they are into).

My old Missouri synod church was really strong on that, like the ultra conservative pastor didn't want you even praying with your relatives during the holidays etc. unless they were the same Lutheran etc. While it came up with the Wisconsin synod but they were much more moderate in their pastoral advice.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I think you'll find that the Holy Bible is the standard in all Masonic organizations BUT if a member happens to be a monotheist of a different religion, I'm told that his sacred book is allowed to be placed there.

uh yeah but it isn't just the Holy Book but what they proclaim about it as far as doctrine. The official Coptic position is a little more moderate compared to my previous posts, but still negative.


I have been introduced to a social fraternity called "the Freemasons”. I have done a lot of research on the organization, and critics weigh out just as many pros as there are cons. I have learned that the organization is not Anti-Christian and is not its own religion. However, my research could be wrong, which is why I'm seeking your guidance. The reason I'm interested in the organization is because it opens doors to a large scale of networking that one doesn't have access to unless they were a part of the organization. Have you heard of Free-Masonry? Is it against our church to be a part of such organization? If so, why?

Historically, the Free-Masons have not expressed deliberate anti-Christianity rhetoric; but, on the other neither hand, nor have they proclaimed pro-Christianity ideology. The spectrum of this all-encompassed-religion-free fraternity is one that does not appeal to us, for we know for sure that Christ is God and the only way to His kingdom is through Him. Freemasonry has a strange fascination engulfed in some medieval occultism. With a twist of zeal and mysticism, they place themselves under an umbrella of a Masonic god, who is perceived to be a "universal deity" and an "architect of the universe," but yet, they do not really have a definition of who he is, and neither do they pursue to have a relationship with whomever they perceive him to be. If a member of the fraternity is Christian, then, so be it. The so-called all-inclusive mentality of the Freemasons would not impose a change, but rather, they take a stance of indifference. Likewise, if the member of the fraternity was of another denomination or faith, his perception and belief would be just as tolerated by the brotherhood. It is most important to note, as a general philosophy, Freemasons do not recognize the Holy Trinity, but only a god. Therefore, negating the triune nature of God signifies a major heresy blanketed in a picturesque quilt of good will and chivalry. Many Christian denominations, including the Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches, have warned against the Free-Mason's underlying shroud of deception. It is not a religion in itself, but presents itself as having the guild of unity, purpose, ethics, and belief in a supreme being, as that of a religious institute. I strongly advise you to put your time and energy into other genuine, respectable, non-evasive, and dignified organizations, which clearly state and enforce sound Christian theology and humanitarian efforts.

Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States - Q&A
 
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Albion

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Well in my old Lutheran denomination (which seems to be the attitude of other places like the Coptic church)

1) It was considered like having a separate parallel religion that is at odds with Christianity.
I understand that. However, it's not at all true.

And that kind of thing I think was made more serious on how into the lodges previous generations were much more into them than their church.
As I said before, do the Chamber of Commerce, the Optimists, the Red Cross, etc. etc. spend more time on their reasons for being than in urging their members to go to church? Well, yes. So, what's the reason for criticizing Masonry on this account?

Of course it's what you mentioned earlier--the mistaken idea that Masonry is a competing religion. But by the way, Masonry does actively encourage its members to be true to the churches that they belong to. I don't think these other organizations do that.

2) There is a Lutheran belief that dates back to Irenaeus, where the Church Father warned against praying with heretics etc. That when you do that share in their belief, because you are one body etc. and it even reminds me of saint Paul warning against greeting apostate people (Don't do that because the greeting can look like condoning whatever bad behavior or heresy they are into).
Before pushing that argument too hard, we need to note that the largest Lutheran body in the United States does NOT have a prohibition against its communicants being Masons and many of them are indeed members.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Before pushing that argument too hard, we need to note that the largest Lutheran body in the United States does NOT have a prohibition against its communicants being Masons and many of them are indeed members.

Uh yeah but if that is one of the ones I'm thinking of they are really weak on a lot of things. Like cohabitation before marriage, homosexuality etc. I think Martin Luther would question their street cred for being Lutheran. :)
 
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Hazelelponi

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What do you think? Is the Pope Catholic? Is it normal to have the most pro-abortion politicians to read during mass? Taylor Marshall seems to think the Roman Catholic Church is full of Masonic philosophy and actually Freemasonry.


What do you think?

jm

I think its clear in the video that the pope would have disengaged from the hand holding thing but Pelosi wouldn't let go of his hand, obviously seeking enough photos to capture the moment. I would say its a politician thing... but then I'm not a Freemason conspiracy theorist in the least. My son was approached to join a masonic lodge etc and I looked deeply into it back then, most especially their literature, beliefs and pledges and found nothing sinister...

I do find it deeply disturbing however, the volume of christian leaders (supposed and otherwise) who are hitching their wagons so to speak to political leaders and positions, many of which are anti christian worldviews. I don't think the church should be so deeply intertwined with the state, in fact, I see it as signs overall of christian depravity
 
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Albion

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uh yeah but it isn't just the Holy Book but what they proclaim about it as far as doctrine.

All right, but I can only respond to one issue at a time. Your point was that other books of sacred writings besides the Bible are (rarely) allowed on the so-called altar.

Now for this additional issue...

What proclamation about doctrine are you referring to?


Historically, the Free-Masons have not expressed deliberate anti-Christianity rhetoric; but, on the other neither hand, nor have they proclaimed pro-Christianity ideology.
That's not true.

The spectrum of this all-encompassed-religion-free fraternity is one that does not appeal to us, for we know for sure that Christ is God and the only way to His kingdom is through Him.
Okay. That doesn't pose any difficulties for someone wanting to belong to his local Christian church and also to his local Masonic lodge.

Freemasonry has a strange fascination engulfed in some medieval occultism.
Such as?

With a twist of zeal and mysticism, they place themselves under an umbrella of a Masonic god,
That's absolutely false.

hat's who is perceived to be a "universal deity" and an "architect of the universe,"
In other words, you're offering us a quote from John Calvin as a way of proving that Masonry isn't in any way sympatico with in Christianity (?)

If a member of the fraternity is Christian, then, so be it. The so-called all-inclusive mentality of the Freemasons would not impose a change, but rather, they take a stance of indifference.
As I've said twice before, dozens of other civic organizations, etc. take no stance on the religious beliefs of their members but, guess what? There doesn't seem to be any effort in the churches to ban membership in them on this account.

The issue is false and this proves it to be so.
 
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Albion

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Uh yeah but if that is one of the ones I'm thinking of they are really weak on a lot of things. Like cohabitation before marriage, homosexuality etc. :)

We're talking about Lutherans and Masonry, Pavel. You chose to use Lutherans in an attempt to prove something unflattering about Masonry and you were wrong. Now you don't want to be connected with your own claim.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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What proclamation about doctrine are you referring to?

I'm talking about the general philosophy or theosophy of major Masonic thinkers like Pike or whoever wrote such works like Morals and Dogma. Are you sure you want to defend that? It's been 20+ years or so since I've read that. I would not call that Christian. Monotheism yes, but not Christian.

Morals and Dogma Index
 
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Pavel Mosko

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All right, but I can only respond to one issue at a time. Your point was that other books of sacred writings besides the Bible are (rarely) allowed on the so-called altar.

Now for this additional issue...

What proclamation about doctrine are you referring to?



That's not true.


Okay. That doesn't pose any difficulties for someone wanting to belong to his local Christian church and also to his local Masonic lodge.


Such as?


That's absolutely false.


The issue is false and this proves it to be so.

To this sort of thing I would just have to add the Bible passages about oaths, and Masonism is all about secret oaths and such. That sort of thing, with all the ritualism just adds to the belief that we are dealing with a separate / parallel kind of religion here.
 
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Albion

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To this sort of thing I would just have to add the Bible passages about oaths, and Masonism is all about secret oaths and such.
I'm growing weary of knocking down anti-Masonic myths, and you are a good guy who is just repeating hearsay. So....I think I'll end the discussion here. I don't seem to be able to get any 'give and take' out of what I've given, so that probably recommends wrapping it up, too. :)

Also, for some reason I just noticed that we're on the OBOB forum, and I don't know how I didn't see that before, but I apologize to anyone who thinks this debate was out of place.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Hey I did some internet snooping. The Grand Lodge and "Temple" in my region (Philadelphia) is very scenic, and very Egyptian. Need to see it when I'm site seeing with friends and family sometime.

Masonic temple of Phildelphia.jpg
 
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Hazelelponi

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Hey I did some internet snooping. The Grand Lodge and "Temple" in my region (Philadelphia) is very scenic, and very Egyptian. Need to see it when I'm site seeing with friends and family sometime.

View attachment 307121

If you took some time to look into it, you know the entire place seeks to replicate various historical art and architecture. Quote



A National Historic Landmark in the heart of Philadelphia, the Masonic Temple features a Norman-style exterior which ushers visitors inside where stylistic references to the Middle Ages give way to a fantasy of Renaissance-inspired neoclassicism in the corridors and stairs and to 19th Century “eclectic revivalism” in the lodge rooms. Oriental Hall and the neoclassical Library and Museum, the Grand Banquet Hall, the Grand Master’s Suite and offices share the first floor. Norman, Egyptian, and Ionic Halls share the second floor with Corinthian and Renaissance Halls. The third floor houses Gothic Hall. Two ornate corridors and stair halls complement and connect every room.

Theres nothing wrong with historical art and architecture... the Egyptian portion is one room in a very large building. People spend money every year to see the pyramids, one of the great wonders of the world. Its a look at history, and isn't satanic or evil.
 
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