Freedom of What?

Rize

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Most religions are exclusionary, meaning only one can be right (if any at all). Additionally, various religions have a number of harmful consequences (as history shows) and have been proven to be wrong on a number of important matters by science in recent history (medicine, astronomy, the works). Yet they can also be used for good (they inspire people to help others for example). However, despite the good that religion can accomplish, some argue that it is unethical to indoctrinate children with religious views. Yet it remains the right of individual parents to choose to do this, despite what the consequences may be for society. This is a personal liberty and I'm sure those who practice religion are quite happy to have freedom of the same.

So I ask how can those who practice religion be opposed to the legalization of drugs, particularly the relatively harmless cannabis without being a hypocrite? Is it ok to be a hypocrite? Why isn't cannabis a personal decision for those who choose to believe that it's benefits outweigh it's negative aspects (particularly with responsible use)? What moral right do you have to support its illegalization in a supposedly free country?

Consider all of the evidence we have that the war on drugs is extremly harmful (I'll provide if anyone doubts). If drugs were legal, you would still have the right to support awareness campaigns to convince people to freely choose not to do drugs just as we do with alcohol and tobaco. Most wouldn't go anywhere near the hard/addictive/dangerous drugs even if they were legal (unless they were already addicted of course). They already know better.

Having paused for a moment to ponder your position on the war on drugs, please answer the following questions if you will.

1) If you support the "war", is enforcing your personal beliefs concerning the morality of drug use more important to you than the freedom of other people to reject that belief and act accordingly? Particularly in the case of cannabis?

2) How would you feel about a secular country that deemed religion a dangerous mental intoxicant and strongly regulated and/or prohibited its use (ala communist regimes)? Do you notice any similarities between the inability of these regimes to squash out religion and the western world's inability to squash out drug use?

3) After considering the previous questions, would you be willing to support legislation intended to legalize the use, manufacture and sale of cannabis and hemp in the united states? If not support, then would you at least avoid opposing it and perhaps convince others? Why or why not?

4) If you still support the war on drugs, then how about a war on unhealthy foods, which can cause serious death and dicease when abused? Should such a "war" be waged by government? Should the "criminals" (people that eat banned unhealthy foods) of such a war be sent to jail and/or fined?

You get the idea.
 

Inconel

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So I ask how can those who practice religion be opposed to the legalization of drugs, particularly the relatively harmless cannabis without being a hypocrite?

Freedom of religion is directly protected in the constitution. On the other hand, any position one takes on the issue of recreational drugs requires considerations outside of the constitution, since freedom to use drugs is not written there.
 
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Rize

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I was expecting people to think. And *gasp*, maybe even admit that the war on drugs is wrong? Or that it possibly maybe might be wrong? Maybe?

Particularly in light of the vast amount of money we waste on it and the vast amount of damage attempting to enforce it has wrought.
 
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variant

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Inconel said:

Freedom of religion is directly protected in the constitution. On the other hand, any position one takes on the issue of recreational drugs requires considerations outside of the constitution, since freedom to use drugs is not written there.



Indeed freedom of religion is written directly into the constitution.


I would contend that the federal government’s right to regulate drugs is not in there either, unless you consider growing something in your back yard and using it recreationally as "interstate commerce", as current law does. Ironically this is why the prohibition of alcohol required a constitutional amendment (and rightfully so). Since it's not rightfully a power of the federal government it should go to the states, or people.


Amendment 10 said:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



And, this poor forgotten passage.


Amdenment 9 said:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



So in any event it should be a state issue, or the Judiciary could delegate this to the people instead under the 10th amendment.
 
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Rize

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Inconel said:
Freedom of religion is directly protected in the constitution. On the other hand, any position one takes on the issue of recreational drugs requires considerations outside of the constitution, since freedom to use drugs is not written there.

So? Just because it's not (yet) in the constitution means we should deny people personal liberties due to irrational fear or religious belief?

And thanks variant, all quite true.

If we want to get into the constitution more, we can also cite excessive fines or cruel and unual punishment (excessive prison terms) for a number of drug "offenders".

By the way, the reason I'm on a Christian forum with this is that Christians are a major obstacle to sane drug policy all over the world as well as in this country. If we can't convince you, we're up a creek.
 
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momalle1

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Rize said:
I was expecting people to think. And *gasp*, maybe even admit that the war on drugs is wrong? Or that it possibly maybe might be wrong? Maybe?

Particularly in light of the vast amount of money we waste on it and the vast amount of damage attempting to enforce it has wrought.

I never thought of the war on drugs having anything to do with whether they should be legal or not, I thought it was more in line with preventing illegal drug use through education, law enforcement and military actions.
 
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reverend B

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this Christian finds the expenditures on the "war on drugs" to be ridiculous and unconstitutional. i see no justification for drug laws in the cotus any more than they saw any when they tried to ban alcohol with an amendment, which the citizenry repealed by their refusal to give it any creedence at all while it existed.
there is a faction of Christianity that has not understood that the great gift we have been given in this country is not moral leadership through legislation, but freedom through the same means. moral leadership is our bailiwick, our responsibility. freedom is the permission slip to express that moral high road. when it is dictated, however, the righteousness of it disappears with the choice.
 
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Freedom of religion is directly protected in the constitution. On the other hand, any position one takes on the issue of recreational drugs requires considerations outside of the constitution, since freedom to use drugs is not written there.


But many religions incorperate various drugs into their rituals. Some Native American tribes use peyote ritually. Rasta's and certain other Christian faiths smoke pot.

Catholics give sips of wine to children. We allow them to break the law for their religion. Yet we hold other religions to a double standard.

I never thought of the war on drugs having anything to do with whether they should be legal or not, I thought it was more in line with preventing illegal drug use through education, law enforcement and military actions.

The Drug War is about the government spouting anti-drug propaganda, diverting our time, money, resources and man-power from catching murders and rapists, maybe even stopping another 9/11 by sicking them after potheads which make up for 55% of all drug arrests, and conducting military like operations on Americans. People getting shot and killed during DEA raids happens more than you think.
 
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momalle1

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Cerberus~ said:
The Drug War is about the government spouting anti-drug propaganda, diverting our time, money, resources and man-power from catching murders and rapists, maybe even stopping another 9/11 by sicking them after potheads which make up for 55% of all drug arrests, and conducting military like operations on Americans. People getting shot and killed during DEA raids happens more than you think.

As anti-narcotics as I am, I have to agree with your analysis. It does waste a lot of money and effort in that we will never rid society of drugs, that hardly means we should spend nothing, but the "War On Drugs" is a farce.
 
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EverlastingMan

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Here is what I think:
A) are not religion; there is furthermore no religion that i know of calling for mandatory use of . If your binding the two to gether were correct it would be equally correct to allow theiving, murder, , ect if a particualar religion called for it.
B) are interstate commerce. They generally come in at the border states and are pawned off from there they thus come quite within the range of the constitution.
 
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ccastellow

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Rize said:
Most religions are exclusionary, meaning only one can be right (if any at all). Additionally, various religions have a number of harmful consequences (as history shows) and have been proven to be wrong on a number of important matters by science in recent history (medicine, astronomy, the works). Yet they can also be used for good (they inspire people to help others for example). However, despite the good that religion can accomplish, some argue that it is unethical to indoctrinate children with religious views. Yet it remains the right of individual parents to choose to do this, despite what the consequences may be for society. This is a personal liberty and I'm sure those who practice religion are quite happy to have freedom of the same.

So I ask how can those who practice religion be opposed to the legalization of drugs, particularly the relatively harmless cannabis without being a hypocrite? Is it ok to be a hypocrite? Why isn't cannabis a personal decision for those who choose to believe that it's benefits outweigh it's negative aspects (particularly with responsible use)? What moral right do you have to support its illegalization in a supposedly free country?

Consider all of the evidence we have that the war on drugs is extremly harmful (I'll provide if anyone doubts). If drugs were legal, you would still have the right to support awareness campaigns to convince people to freely choose not to do drugs just as we do with alcohol and tobaco. Most wouldn't go anywhere near the hard/addictive/dangerous drugs even if they were legal (unless they were already addicted of course). They already know better.

Having paused for a moment to ponder your position on the war on drugs, please answer the following questions if you will.

1) If you support the "war", is enforcing your personal beliefs concerning the morality of drug use more important to you than the freedom of other people to reject that belief and act accordingly? Particularly in the case of cannabis?

2) How would you feel about a secular country that deemed religion a dangerous mental intoxicant and strongly regulated and/or prohibited its use (ala communist regimes)? Do you notice any similarities between the inability of these regimes to squash out religion and the western world's inability to squash out drug use?

3) After considering the previous questions, would you be willing to support legislation intended to legalize the use, manufacture and sale of cannabis and hemp in the united states? If not support, then would you at least avoid opposing it and perhaps convince others? Why or why not?

4) If you still support the war on drugs, then how about a war on unhealthy foods, which can cause serious death and dicease when abused? Should such a "war" be waged by government? Should the "criminals" (people that eat banned unhealthy foods) of such a war be sent to jail and/or fined?

You get the idea.

I used to be like you on this subject. I will tell you my views of why not to legalize it. Everyone has heard people say that smoking marijuana leads to harder drugs. And the common response is that it does not. However, in my ten years or so of doing drugs I have yet to see someone who only smoked marijuana (this isn't to say that they are not out there). I started off just smoking weed, but it turned into a lifestyle of indulgence in about anything you can imagine. I started with the intent to just experiment, but it turned into something that got out of control.

I don't want my kids to have easier access to those things which hurt my life in so many ways. However, it is my duty to raise them in an environment where they can learn about a God who loves and cares for them. My spirit, soul and heart testify to this truth. I really don't know why you would put this here, but I think you would be better served going to the norml website.
 
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variant

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EverlastingMan said:
B) are interstate commerce. They generally come in at the border states and are pawned off from there they thus come quite within the range of the constitution.

Marijuana is a weed that grows everywhere, It would be perfectly capable of growing in your back yard, the reason it is found mostly at border states is because it is illegal (the DEA will come and chop it down and throw you in jail) and people are trying to ship it in from abroad. You can not use the fact that it is mostly shipped in from abroad because it is illegal, as a justification of it being illegal, that is just silly.



Also, just because something that is generally interstate commerce does not mean it is always interstate commerce. Under the current law, growing pot in your back yard for your own personal use is illegal under federal statutes. It however in now way qualifies as interstate commerce.
 
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Rize

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momalle1 said:
I never thought of the war on drugs having anything to do with whether they should be legal or not, I thought it was more in line with preventing illegal drug use through education, law enforcement and military actions.

I never thought that some people hadn't thought of this.

Drugs were not always illegal. They do not have to remain so. On one hand we can choose how to fight the war on drugs, on the other hand we can change the entire nature of the war (by legalizing everything and fighting by intelligent persuasion rather than force).
 
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Rize

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reverend B said:
this Christian finds the expenditures on the "war on drugs" to be ridiculous and unconstitutional. i see no justification for drug laws in the cotus any more than they saw any when they tried to ban alcohol with an amendment, which the citizenry repealed by their refusal to give it any creedence at all while it existed.
there is a faction of Christianity that has not understood that the great gift we have been given in this country is not moral leadership through legislation, but freedom through the same means. moral leadership is our bailiwick, our responsibility. freedom is the permission slip to express that moral high road. when it is dictated, however, the righteousness of it disappears with the choice.

I am saving this because it is exactly what I've been wanting to say, but not being a believer any more, I was finding difficult to express.
Thanks!
 
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Rize

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momalle1 said:
As anti-narcotics as I am, I have to agree with your analysis. It does waste a lot of money and effort in that we will never rid society of drugs, that hardly means we should spend nothing, but the "War On Drugs" is a farce.


drug misuse is a social problem and perhaps worth spending public tax money on. however, it should be spent on campaigns of persuasion not force
 
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