Free won't

nonaeroterraqueous

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I will post this in general theology forum too but I wanted to get a baptist view.

Should have said, "I freely will post...."

The question assumes the existence of free will, which is not a wholly Baptist doctrine. Did you post it in here just to snub a significant portion of the Baptist posters, here?
 
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DeaconDean

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Hi baptist brothers and sisters
Just wondering you know how God gave us free will, is there such a thing as free won't as well???
I will post this in general theology forum too but I wanted to get a baptist view.

Of course God gave us a will. The question arises then "just how free is mans will"?

I can give you the "standard" Baptist answer.

But I would suggest that you take some time to read the historic and present day Baptist CoF's to see what they said.

I will say this, if you ever get a chance, read Arthur W. Pink's "The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, The Sovereignty of God and Human Will".

Read Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Hmm but Martin Luther wasnt baptist. I dont know about arthur pink. He sounds presbyterian.
Uh no intention of snubbing anyone. Just want to know the baptist take on it.

Just because Martin Luther was the "founder" of the Lutheran Movement, does not mean we can't learn from him. Had it not been for him, we might not have gotten started before we did.

Arthur W. Pink was a Baptist BTW.

Baptists in history, have mostly been Calvinistic. Mostly. There are exceptions.

The Baptist position on "free will" unless it is from the Arminian perspective, takes the same view as Calvinism.

Like I said, read some of the historic Baptist Confessions of Faith and you'll see where Baptists stand.

Also, going to the General Theology section and asking this same question is not a good idea. Its okay if you want the opinions of OBOB, Orthodox, and others, but I doubt you'll get too many Protestant answers as it (in my own personal experience) always turns ugly.

You may not like Martin Luther, or John Calvin, or Jabobus Arminus, but there are some teachings that are universal.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I didnt say I dont like people? I just want to know if theres such a thing as free wont. When people dont obey God and do what he tells them to.

You are a baptist are you not? It doesnt matter what other people who are not you think. am asking what baptists, ie. the people who are posting on this forum who identify as baptists and fellowship their thoughts, not people that lived ages ago.

If you cant answer the question with the bible and YOUR own thoughts but have to constantly quote someone elses thoughts that you have to read a 1000 page thesis on then please dont respond.

Btw i fellowship in baptist churches and I dont quote all these dead theologians. They may be famous but I CAN think for myself cos God has give me a sound mind...among other things lol.
 
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Goodbook

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When Jesus asks us to the spread the gospel I dont think he ever said to oh first you have to read the life story of martin luther, jacob arminim and whoever else. Who are just men and get everyone to think what they think. They didnt even exist back then and they didnt write scripture.

Firstly read the bible and you can see God gives his chosen people choices, for blessing or cursing depending on obedience or disobedience. I think that shows free will and free wont.

Then in the new testament, Jesus constantly asks his disciples whether they will trust and obey him, or whether they wont. He prays they will, like he did with Peter. This is all depndent on whether people actually listen to Him. Its quite clear that some disciples DID listen, but they walked away cos they decided not to follow him, they didnt understand or they thought it was too hard.
 
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Goodbook

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Another thing Jesus prayed was that Gods will be done, this is what He taught with the Lords prayer. after you have received the holy spirit Gods will works in you but you still have to obey Him to receive more. Your will needs to align with His will.

The holy spirit can be grieved when we disobey him..and that would be a free wont because we can make the choice to disobey or not listen or ignore Him.

We have liberty in Christ and thats freedom. But not all things are profitable or beneficial. Jesus also said when he observed the difference between Mary and Martha, that Mary CHOSE the better part, and that choice can never be taken away from her.
 
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DeaconDean

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I didnt say I dont like people? I just want to know if theres such a thing as free wont. When people dont obey God and do what he tells them to.

You are a baptist are you not? It doesnt matter what other people who are not you think. am asking what baptists, ie. the people who are posting on this forum who identify as baptists and fellowship their thoughts, not people that lived ages ago.

If you cant answer the question with the bible and YOUR own thoughts but have to constantly quote someone elses thoughts then please dont respond.

Let me put it this way.

I have been a Baptist since 1974. That's 43 years.

For 30 of those years I did not think let alone give the idea of free will a thought.

Then I started attending seminary classes.

I know several people on here who would agree with me. The matter of free will or free won't is not as simple as you want it to be.

But just for fun, kicks and giggles, I'll give you the .05 answer.

Man is a habitual animal. He is ruled by feelings and other things. Scripture says that prior to salvation, we are slaves to sin, in bondage to it. So when scripture says "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free" not only are you saved, but you are released from being slaves to sin, and in bondage to it.

Logic says the mind drives all actions. Scripture says its the heart. And until man is saved, released from his bondage to sin, his will is to do what is in his heart.

It is only after man has been regenerated, given a new heart, that his will is somewhat free.

That is why I urge people to study. Systematic Theology was my greatest course in seminary. I excelled at it.

Its not enough to know what I believe, I wanted to know why, where, and how we believe it.

Even here in the Baptist area, there is a dividing line between Calvinist Baptists and Arminian Baptists, Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists.

And that line has to do with the notion of "free will".

It was an issue back in 1742, and it is still an issue today.

Should it matter I direct you to some of the earliest writings on free will?

No, but somehow, it does to you.

Jim Jones was right about one thing, "Those who don't learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it".

So forgive me, I'll bow out now.

Unwatching, and unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I love what Jesus said about Mary. Its just a few verses but really a key incident in the Bible that demonstrates Mary's love for her saviour.

At other times Jesus could really disappointed when people called Him Lord Lord and didnt do what He commanded. But He never forced them to follow Him, they had a choice.
 
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Goodbook

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Actually its quite funny think about it, Jesus always told the truth, he could never lie, he was sinless, so for him to experience people that were dishonest would have really troubled him. Why wouldnt you do what you said you would do? What would be the point of making a promise you cant keep? Wouldnt you just be digging your own hole?

Etc.
 
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Goodbook

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However, it is true that Jesus experienced life that was hard but he always obeyed His father. He genuinely struggled with living on earth, people hating on him, the pesky devil, the prospect of dying etc. he didnt want to die but He said not my will but thine.

He could have made the choice not to, but he didnt. He could have failed the temptation in the wilderness. He could have Decided oh, i will eat these stones cos im hungry, will just turn them into bread.

Eve could have made a free wont and NOT eaten from the forbidden tree instead of a free will to disobey. I think it works both ways.
 
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DeaconDean

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Folks,

One of the biggest problems in the church today is people, Christians, neither study, or read their bible anymore. People rely far to much on whatever is said from the pulpit.

A study done back in the early 2000's showed that only 6% of the people who call themselves "Christian" read their Bible, and that only 4% of those actually knew what it said.

This is entirely wrong.

I was one of those once.

The people of this world may be divided by race/skin color.

In the eyes of God, there were basically only two: Jews and Gentiles. White, black, red, yellow, brown, didn't matter. You were either a Jew or Gentile.

But...there is one thing all these have in common. We are all by birth, the seed of Adam.

To go back and look at "Free will/Free won't" you have to go back and look at two people.

Adam and Christ.

Here is where it pays to study.

"In any treatise that proposes to deal with the human will, its nature and functions, respect should be had to the will in three different men, namely, unfallen Adam, the sinner, and the Lord Jesus Christ. In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of innocency but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam's will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward good or evil, and as such Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because He was the "Holy One of God." Before He was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Speaking reverently then we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with His sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was His eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam's will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise-capable of turning toward either good or evil-the sinner's will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner's will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart."

Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, God's Sovereignty and Human Will, The Bondage of the Human Will

Source

Read through the scriptures. The Old Testament of full of Saints, like Moses who sinned.

Read the New Testament. The Apostles were not sinless either.

As long as we live in this body of flesh, though we may try as hard as we can to follow Jesus and do what the scriptures say, we will fail. We are not perfect...yet!

Although the salvation event freed us from the bondage to sin, we still struggle with it every second, of every minute, of every hour, of every day, of every month, of every year.

We are going to fail, and we are going to fall. That is why I'm thankful for the clause in 1 Jn. 1:8-10.

Both the will to do good and the will to do evil are still part of us. So says Paul.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I was thinking of some rude children in my bible class who decided to read their own books instead of paying attention to listening to me read the bible.

Maybe i should not give them any option and take away their free wont.

But wouldnt a better way be just tell them if you want to be in bible class, listen to the teacher, but if you dont, you cAn leave and go to the library. Your choice.

I had one girl who really wanted to come to bible class and her parents didnt let her. Everytime she tells me shes really sad her parents dont allow her to come. If only she could swap places with the boys who dont want to listen.
 
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Goodbook

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God did say to the israelites they were a stubborn and stiffnecked people, but its not as if He made them so they wouldnt listen to Him lol. They had free wont. HE also gave them choices, in the book of Joshua They are clearly given a choice as to whom they will serve.
 
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