Free Will vs Destiny

[Freedom~Sprite]

Well, it is our choices. It's not an illusion, it's just that the choices we are going to make were already taken into account.

Let's go with that. All the way back to the garden in Eden. The tree of knowledge. And Satan, who was cast to earth prior to humans being created.

 

[akaDaScribe]

Let's go with that. All the way back to the garden in Eden. The tree of knowledge. And Satan, who was cast to earth prior to humans being created.

Actually back to the beginning of creation up to and including every particle. We can't even begin to fathom what variables God is capable of processing.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Actually back to the beginning of creation up to and including every particle. We can't even begin to fathom what variables God is capable of processing.

Wouldn't you agree that is a given?
Our reality as a race, the human race, began in the garden.
That was the question.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Personally, I am stumped. As a Believer in an all powerful, all knowing God, I must believe that for any action to take place it must be known beforehand and it also must be done in accord with God's will.

There is God's perfect divine will and there is God permissive will. No matter what happens in our life God can cause good to come out of it. So He will or can only permit what He can cause good to come out of. Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

Psalm 139:16 "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." God wrote the book of our life before we were born. Yet some people are aborted and they do not get a chance to live out any of the life that God planed for them. We have our gifts, talents and abilities. We can follow God's plan for us and our life. We can use what we have to bring Him honor, praise & glory. We can follow our own plan or we can follow Satan in his rebellion. That is our choice to make. Romans 11:29 " God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." He does not ever take away our gifts. Even for those who do not use their gift to honor God.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Wouldn't you agree that is a given?
Our reality as a race, the human race, began in the garden.

In the garden was the tree of the fruit of good and evil. Science believes that "Evolution of the Cerebral Cortex Makes us Human". It is the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil that makes us human and that we are told took place in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago at the dawn of civilization.

 

[rturner76]

There is God's perfect divine will and there is God permissive will. No matter what happens in our life God can cause good to come out of it. So He will or can only permit what He can cause good to come out of. Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

Psalm 139:16 "all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." God wrote the book of our life before we were born. Yet some people are aborted and they do not get a chance to live out any of the life that God planed for them. We have our gifts, talents and abilities. We can follow God's plan for us and our life. We can use what we have to bring Him honor, praise & glory. We can follow our own plan or we can follow Satan in his rebellion. That is our choice to make. Romans 11:29 " God's gifts and his call are irrevocable." He does not ever take away our gifts. Even for those who do not use their gift to honor God.

I think this makes sense to me that there is more than one kindof "will" Thank You

 

[BNR32FAN]

If predestination is true why did the apostles need to go forth and spread the gospel?

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

In the garden was the tree of the fruit of good and evil. Science believes that "Evolution of the Cerebral Cortex Makes us Human". It is the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil that makes us human and that we are told took place in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago at the dawn of civilization.

But science doesn't say human civilization is 6,000 years old. Far older in fact .
There are some schools of thought that say the tree of knowledge that was forbidden was a metaphor. As was the serpent. Being this is a Christian family oriented community I'll just say that it all comes down to sensual self awareness. Realizing self is a sensual creature. And the fruit of that knowledge and the snake slithering up the tree was referring to Kundalini energy.

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

If predestination is true why did the apostles need to go forth and spread the gospel?

For the manifestation of his glory among his creation. To lead the parts to the whole.

Because it is all part of creation within and of one power; God That is the trinity. Birth. Life. Death.
I form light and I create darkness;
I make peace and I create evil;
I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

Dualism, simply, God in contrast, is derided as heresy in some Christian denominations. And yet, that is exactly what God describes of himself and his power in Isaiah 45:7-9.

Everything is predestined, predetermined. There is no free will. Not really. There is us in our illusion we have free will. But within the dominion, the creation that is all created by the holy spirit God, there can be no thing the eternally conscious creator of all things , does not know. Or control. Because everything that is , is of Him. Everything that happens , cause and effect, happens because what does transpire must be there waiting because God designed the formula as creator of all. Everything.

Acts 4:27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Ephesians 1:11 Aramaic Bible in plain English
And we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will....

1 Peter 2:8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

[This scripture corrects those teachings out there that claim Jesus , (Emmanuel , or, Immanuel, meaning , "God with us", was not God incarnate. Thus, the son of man. The son of God)
John 14:5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For the manifestation of his glory among his creation. To lead the parts to the whole.

Because it is all part of creation within and of one power; God That is the trinity. Birth. Life. Death.
I form light and I create darkness;
I make peace and I create evil;
I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

Dualism, simply, God in contrast, is derided as heresy in some Christian denominations. And yet, that is exactly what God describes of himself and his power in Isaiah 45:7-9.

Everything is predestined, predetermined. There is no free will. Not really. There is us in our illusion we have free will. But within the dominion, the creation that is all created by the holy spirit God, there can be no thing the eternally conscious creator of all things , does not know. Or control. Because everything that is , is of Him. Everything that happens , cause and effect, happens because what does transpire must be there waiting because God designed the formula as creator of all. Everything.

Acts 4:27“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Ephesians 1:11 Aramaic Bible in plain English
And we are chosen by him as he had before ordained us and willed to do all according to the counsel of his will....

1 Peter 2:8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

[This scripture corrects those teachings out there that claim Jesus , (Emmanuel , or, Immanuel, meaning , "God with us", was not God incarnate. Thus, the son of man. The son of God)
John 14:5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.

Those who are chosen will see His glory but why is it important that the people who will burn in the lake of fire see God’s glory? The people who aren’t chosen. If there’s no free will why are there commandments in the Bible? Why are we told to believe in Jesus if we can only believe if God chooses us? If we don’t have free will wouldn’t we automatically believe if it was God’s will?

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

Those who are chosen will see His glory but why is it important that the people who will burn in the lake of fire see God’s glory? The people who aren’t chosen. If there’s no free will why are there commandments in the Bible? Why are we told to believe in Jesus if we can only believe if God chooses us? If we don’t have free will wouldn’t we automatically believe if it was God’s will?

Matthew 11:15
Mark 4:9

Election to Salvation
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Blade]

Free will... does GOD know it all? Silly question yet.. for a GOD that knows all.. why would He ask Adam "where are you?" Hmm then ask.. have you ate from the tree I told you not to?" Seems man had a free choice. And this GOD that knows all ...has already seen the end.. where the future is His now..

He gives us free choice. Gave us the right to do GOOD or BAD. Were in this bubble so we have free will but to a point. Well we cant just say.. I wont no part in any of this and walk off lol. We handed over everthing God made with His hands to Satan. This is the price.. we did this...so make Christ lord

 

[MoneyGuy]

God knowing all doesn't mean there is no free will.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matthew 11:15
Mark 4:9

Election to Salvation
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

“As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

It is an age old question debated here many times. I haven't seen it for a little while so I thought I would as the question again.

Personally, I am stumped. As a Believer in an all powerful, all knowing God, I must believe that for any action to take place it must be known beforehand and it also must be done in accord with God's will.

Then how can we say that we are able to make choices, if we have no free will?

It seems fairly obvious either way.

Could it be that we do have free will up until we make a choice? Then once we act n that choice it becomes our destiny?

Does anybody here have the correct answer?

I'll try to keep this short...

Destiny? Who is she? Do I know her? Do you mean predestination? Moving on...

I consider it a false dichotomy. So I opt for a third option: Both

Correct Answer: Compatiblism

Note on free will: "Free" from what to what? The freedom of a will is bound to the nature of that will. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

Note on the Sovereignty of God: Omniscience + immutability + single Predestination based on the free will choices of God, and accomplished by BOTH ordained and allowed choices of first and secondary causal agents. God is sovereign over where He is actively involved with Creation, and where His is passive in the sense of whatever He allows of secondary causal agents. Salvation viewed as a whole, it is both monergistic and synergistic but at different points, which is to say sanctification can be either as God wills, however regeneration the starting point is mongergistic, which is not a denial of free will, rather the will first needs to become free to be free for the synergism of sanctification and the choices between choosing to walk in the flesh or Spirit become available. Much more could be said and explained but you know how these threads go and how answers are buried and burned so short and sweet it is.

 

[Radagast]

There are some schools of thought that say the tree of knowledge that was forbidden was a metaphor. As was the serpent.

And what you are describing is non-Christian belief.

 

[Radagast]

Correct Answer: Compatiblism

Exactly.

 

[rturner76]

I'll try to keep this short...

Destiny? Who is she? Do I know her? Do you mean predestination? Moving on...

I consider it a false dichotomy. So I opt for a third option: Both

Correct Answer: Compatiblism

Note on free will: "Free" from what to what? The freedom of a will is bound to the nature of that will. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

Note on the Sovereignty of God: Omniscience + immutability + single Predestination based on the free will choices of God, and accomplished by BOTH ordained and allowed choices of first and secondary causal agents. God is sovereign over where He is actively involved with Creation, and where His is passive in the sense of whatever He allows of secondary causal agents. Salvation viewed as a whole, it is both monergistic and synergistic but at different points, which is to say sanctification can be either as God wills, however regeneration the starting point is mongergistic, which is not a denial of free will, rather the will first needs to become free to be free for the synergism of sanctification and the choices between choosing to walk in the flesh or Spirit become available. Much more could be said and explained but you know how these threads go and how answers are buried and burned so short and sweet it is.

Very intelligent. Were you taught this specifically or did you deduce this point of view through an overall study of philosophy? I feel like I have a much better grasp of the subject after reading just this post. I'm sure there could be chapters of detail to write but I appreciate the summary.

Are there are Christian philosophers writings you would recommend that share this view or one similar?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Very intelligent. Were you taught this specifically or did you deduce this point of view through an overall study of philosophy? I feel like I have a much better grasp of the subject after reading just this post. I'm sure there could be chapters of detail to write but I appreciate the summary.

Are there are Christian philosophers writings you would recommend that share this view or one similar?

I struggled and struggled for years and worked through it studying Scripture, philosophy, theology lectures, debates, learning and thinking and growing pains. I learned through a host of similar minded folks also with desires to be faithful to Scripture in their Christian philosophy. So many resources have helped it's difficult to know where to start, but will list a few, keep in mind with the books that I have not read them cover to cover, but enough to be helpful.

Writings of St. Augustine pertaining to free will and predestination

"The Bondage and Liberation of the Will" by John Calvin (published by Baker Academic, first English translation 2002)
"God Sovereign and Man Free" by N.L. Rice (other formats)
"The Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards
"Willing to Believe" by R.C. Sproul
"Free Grace versus Free Will" by W.E. Best (other formats)

Then there are books helpful to understanding arguments against free will (keeping in mind the authors above and below are years beyond my abilities, but worth the growing pains):

"A Display of Arminianism" by John Owens
"The Cause of God and Truth" by John Gill

Many others helped along the way, if I had more time, would link to some helpful audio.

I came from a Wesleyan understanding of free will (held to up into my late twenties), before embracing Calvinism (now in early forties).

 

[Freedom~Sprite]

And what you are describing is non-Christian belief.

That's your opinion.
The Bible is written in allegory, metaphor, idiom , and parable form.