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While it may be as you say, "They let their own thoughts rule over what this above verse clearly says", it also may be there is a misunderstanding. Otherwise I agree the scripture clearly says that there are those that do not receive the love of the Truth.

I am not comfortable equating that action of not receiving the love of the Truth with coming from a freewill anymore than I am comfortable with equating receiving the love of the Truth as coming from a freewill. To me these are two distinct wills only because they see things differently.

The scripture describing the mystery of iniquity at work shows severe consequences for those who more than likely had ample opportunity to receive the Truth, but I would guess they were too prideful.


Regardless of the fact that I currently control my fingers and legs and their actions according to my discretion, it's still a different issue to believe I am in full control of my moral/immoral disposition according to my discretion. Heck just needing a nap can change my attitude. Ironically, I am dealing with His judgment of me even when I judge others as pertains to mercy. Even Christ said that the sick need a doctor, and of course there are probably those that refuse to admit that they or anyone else needs any healing at all.

The context of Romans 1 referencing God's wrath is about a time before mankind had become utterly sinful, and how God's wrath was justified. In this context the presence of culpability is clear since the scenario is one where men knew God had made them, and yet they took the glory for their righteous attributes unto themselves when they were rightly Gods', and so this is uncontested. For by doing so men changed the incorruptible image of God and worshipped the creature over the Creator and became corrupt and foolish within themselves. I don't think mankind knew this would be the result.

Respectfully, the phrase "those who thirst" is not representative of a will that is free from the compulsion or realization of the need to drink so as to live. And the term translated "freely", implies that it is the water that is freely given and that no one who thirsts should be denied, for it is to be counted as a gift that comes by grace and therefore cannot be earned or deserved.


It's not my place to say definitively how God will judge the wicked. According to scripture, we all have already been condemned as wicked through the works of the law. Currently in my mind, I would think that the wicked and unrighteous are more prone to condemn others rather than forgive, and the just and righteous are prone to forgive others rather than condemn.

The issue is most likely a misunderstanding caused by the occasion of semantics.
You probably want people to take God's wrath and judgment more seriously, and they don't want to believe it's the fear of His wrath and judgment that is the reason for being good or obedient or the impetus for remorse.

It depends on how 'free' in front of 'will' is qualified and the context in which it is applied. To quote scripture, to be free from righteousness is to be a servant to sin, and to be free from sin is to be a servant of righteousness. There are two opposing types of freedom being described there. This indicates that there are higher powers that we are forced to react to because they precede us in existence and that ultimately we will serve one or the other unto our detriment and the detriment of others, or for our benefit and the benefit of others.

Free will is the individual, the person, oneself is the cause for their choice, they are the cause for their action, and no external factor caused them to decide or act.

From this perspective, “we” are not “forced” to react to one of the two higher powers. Rather “we” freely choose to react to one, or both, of those higher powers, and “we” are the cause for the decision and the action. Nothing is “forcing” us to decide or act one way or the other.

However in the context of having been given over to a reprobate mind, one cannot expect such a mind to know God or acknowledge Him.

So what? The verse(s) in Romans clearly states the people in Romans 1:28 were already freely choosing to not acknowledge God. “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God…” So what if a “depraved mind” for these people “cannot” acknowledge God? They were already not acknowledging God. The not acknowledging God is what led them to being turned over to a depraved mind. “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper…”

Not acknowledging God came first, being given “up” to a “depraved mind” followed. Which, by the way,

And the entirety of the passage has some wording that a depraved mind can acknowledge God, albeit in a way to hate Him and praise disobedience of His ordinance.

“29 people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, andmalice; they are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, andunmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God.”
 
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But God breathed into us His Spirit. The dirt didn't ask to be made into a man. I agree we have to Love God but not because He commands it but because He is our goodness.

Uh, it says right in Mark 12:29-31 that Jesus gives us the two greatest commandments and they are based on love.
 
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But God breathed into us His Spirit. The dirt didn't ask to be made into a man. I agree we have to Love God but not because He commands it but because He is our goodness.

Oh, and by the way, the Scriptures say that the Spirit is given to those who obey Him (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
 
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childeye 2

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Free will is the individual, the person, oneself is the cause for their choice, they are the cause for their action, and no external factor caused them to decide or act.
The will is defined as either the desire, or the faculty of reasoning (two different meanings). If the term free in the moral/immoral purview denotes that the will is free from any external moral or immoral Spirit, this would not be true since the soul of man has always been predisposed according to a measure of Light and darkness that dwells in the soul.

From this perspective, “we” are not “forced” to react to one of the two higher powers. Rather “we” freely choose to react to one, or both, of those higher powers, and “we” are the cause for the decision and the action. Nothing is “forcing” us to decide or act one way or the other.
Knowledge precedes us in existence and we reason upon what we believe to be true. We are not the cause of the existence of what is true even because we are subject to it, whether we believe that or not.


So what? The verse(s) in Romans clearly states the people in Romans 1:28 were already freely choosing to not acknowledge God. “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God…” So what if a “depraved mind” for these people “cannot” acknowledge God? They were already not acknowledging God. The not acknowledging God is what led them to being turned over to a depraved mind. “And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper…”

Not acknowledging God came first, being given “up” to a “depraved mind” followed. Which, by the way,

And the entirety of the passage has some wording that a depraved mind can acknowledge God, albeit in a way to hate Him and praise disobedience of His ordinance.
All good points except for So what?

“29 people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unfeeling, and unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God.”
Respectfully, this is what.
 
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Sure, but we can't keep them without love.

Never said otherwise that we can keep the two greatest commandments without God (or love). Not sure how that again proves your case for Calvinism and or that love cannot be a decision. The fact that we are commanded to love proves that love can be a decision. For why would Jesus give us a command that even many believers do not always keep?

We are told that even to believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23).
But why would Jesus need to command anyone to believe in Him if that is just something automatic by some kind of Calvinistic Unconditional Election?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I don't see how that is proof of Calvinism. If Calvinism was true in this particular story, we would have the Lord Jesus saying the words, “I Elect you Saul to salvation, and your will is no more,” etc., etc.
I never said it was proof I was saying God can and does at times impose His will upon individuals.
 
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childeye 2

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That has nothing to do with Acts of the Apostles 5:32.
You had said earlier that, God created man with a freewill so that he was capable of showing true Love towards God. The semantics show that the sentiment behind your words, means true and sincere love can never be 'forced'. Wherefore in such a sentiment, the term 'force', must carry a negative denotation. The semantics show, that with such a sentiment, not loving God would also have to be a viable option otherwise it is 'forced'. Hence if it were true that God gave mankind a freewill that could do either, it would be equally true to say that God created man with a freewill so he was capable of not loving God. But I don't believe you realize this is what you're contemplating in your psycholinguistics. Moreover you compound the problem when you point out that loving God must be a decision since God commands us to Love Him, when in fact this contradicts the first point that true love cannot be demanded or commanded since it must be voluntary. It's like God commanding us to volunteer to Love Him and worship Him or else we die and go to hell. This is why freewill is an unstable term to reason upon, because in this form it's an equivocation that is neither here nor there.

The way I see it is, there is only one God and there is no choice to Love or not Love Him. To think there is, is to either despise Love altogether or not admit that God is the Love and the goodness in our soul which keeps us from becoming abominations. Wherefore God should be cherished and worshipped above all things including ourselves. To even ponder that there should be an option to choose otherwise is to court lies, sin and death. This is why we are commanded to Love Him, for our benefit. For we see what becomes of our will when we worship the creature over the Creator. To Love God with all your heart mind and soul means there is no other option to consider.

So just to be clear, when you pointed out that, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him, that scripture was a response to, But God breathed into us His Spirit. The dirt didn't ask to be made into a man. I agree we have to Love God but not because He commands it but because He is our goodness.
 
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You had said earlier that, God created man with a freewill so that he was capable of showing true Love towards God. The semantics show that the sentiment behind your words, means true and sincere love can never be 'forced'. Wherefore in such a sentiment, the term 'force', must carry a negative denotation. The semantics show, that with such a sentiment, not loving God would also have to be a viable option otherwise it is 'forced'. Hence if it were true that God gave mankind a freewill that could do either, it would be equally true to say that God created man with a freewill so he was capable of not loving God. But I don't believe you realize this is what you're contemplating in your psycholinguistics. Moreover you compound the problem when you point out that loving God must be a decision since God commands us to Love Him, when in fact this contradicts the first point that true love cannot be demanded or commanded since it must be voluntary. It's like God commanding us to volunteer to Love Him and worship Him or else we die and go to hell. This is why freewill is an unstable term to reason upon, because in this form it's an equivocation that is neither here nor there.

The way I see it is, there is only one God and there is no choice to Love or not Love Him. To think there is, is to either despise Love altogether or not admit that God is the Love and the goodness in our soul which keeps us from becoming abominations. Wherefore God should be cherished and worshipped above all things including ourselves. To even ponder that there should be an option to choose otherwise is to court lies, sin and death. This is why we are commanded to Love Him, for our benefit. For we see what becomes of our will when we worship the creature over the Creator. To Love God with all your heart mind and soul means there is no other option to consider.

So just to be clear, when you pointed out that, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him, that scripture was a response to, But God breathed into us His Spirit. The dirt didn't ask to be made into a man. I agree we have to Love God but not because He commands it but because He is our goodness.

Free Will
in the Bible:


#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
 
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I never said it was proof I was saying God can and does at times impose His will upon individuals.

But this is not in regards to salvation or in living holy, though. Nowhere will you find such an occurrence ever mentioned or shown in Scripture. Neither is there any teaching that would suggest this, either.
 
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childeye 2

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Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.
Respectfully, none of these scriptures speak of the type of free will you have been referencing. The noun the 'will' means two things, the desire and the faculty of reasoning. The will has to be free from something which would qualify what 'free' pertains to.
 
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Respectfully, none of these scriptures speak of the type of free will you have been referencing. The noun the 'will' means two things, the desire and the faculty of reasoning. The will has to be free from something which would qualify what 'free' pertains to.

All I can do is point out the truth in God’s Word. I cannot make a person to see that truth.
I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on.
I don’t think we are going to convince each other here.

So may the Lord bless you in all manner of His good ways (even if we disagree strongly over the Scriptures and how we view God and His love, and fair justice).
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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But this is not in regards to salvation or in living holy, though. Nowhere will you find such an occurrence ever mentioned or shown in Scripture. Neither is there any teaching that would suggest this, either.
Paul was living unholy and Jesus knocked him down , blinded him and Paul was converted on the road to damascus.
 
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childeye 2

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All I can do is point out the truth in God’s Word. I cannot make a person to see that truth.
I think it is best we agree to disagree and move on.
I don’t think we are going to convince each other here.

So may the Lord bless you in all manner of His good ways (even if we disagree strongly over the Scriptures and how we view God and His love, and fair justice).
I think we differ in how to articulate the truth and not necessarily on what is true. I don't want to say something untrue anymore than you do. So I explained that I'm not comfortable saying and teaching that God gave man a freewill so that he was capable of loving God, even because it also means that I'm saying and teaching that God gave man a freewill so that he was capable of not loving God (which I see as a disability not an ability). Wouldn't it be better to say that when God made mankind, man was in a state of innocence?

Please honestly consider that the term freewill you are referencing is the circumstance of a will equivocating between two masters, which is described as doubleminded or unstable in scripture, and not a freewill.
 
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I think we differ in how to articulate the truth and not necessarily on what is true. I don't want to say something untrue anymore than you do. So I explained that I'm not comfortable saying and teaching that God gave man a freewill so that he was capable of loving God, even because it also means that I'm saying and teaching that God gave man a freewill so that he was capable of not loving God (which I see as a disability not an ability). Wouldn't it be better to say that when God made mankind, man was in a state of innocence?

Please honestly consider that the term freewill you are referencing is the circumstance of a will equivocating between two masters, which is described as doubleminded or unstable in scripture, and not a freewill.

May the Lord bless you.
 
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Paul was living unholy and Jesus knocked him down , blinded him and Paul was converted on the road to damascus.

If Calvinism was true, something like the scenario below is how thing would play out with Saul (Paul) at his conversion.

The apostle Paul: “Who are you Lord?”
The Lord says: “Jesus in whom you persecute.”
The apostle Paul: “I resist you!”
The apostle Paul: “I will destroy you!“
The Lord says: “I am the creator of the universe.”
The apostle Paul: “So you say.”
The Lord says: Enough! Your will and mind is no more. You will obey me now and accept me now.
The apostle Paul: “As you wish my Lord. I will obey you.”​

Did this happen?
No. Thus Calvinism cannot be proven from Paul's conversion as it is currently shown in Scripture.
For nothing of the sort above has ever been recorded by any believer's conversion.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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I don’t quite understand. There is several verses in romans that sounds a lot like predestination. There is also a ton of verses that talk about making the choice to follow Christ. I want to believe free will. The idea that God decides who is gonna follow Him and who He’s gonna throw in Hell I find disturbing. If you support predestination please explain the verses that speak about free will. Ex John 3:16. That’s just one of many. And if your for free will please explain the verses that sound like presentation. Ex Romans 9:21-23. Also I know about Armineaism but Romans 9:21-23 doesn’t sound like it’s based on our choices

According to Paul, we are born dead to God and a slave of Satan (Ephesians 2:1-3). Thus, we start out without "free will," but God gives us the new birth making us alive to him in order to give our lives to him as his adopted children freely following his ways. There's both predestination and human responsibility for all our actions in the Bible; both are true.
 
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