Free will is sinful.

[ChasClean]

I do believe we have the ability to love and if we do not use it we will not receive the free gift of eternal life from God, but when we love and recieve that gift we will still not have earned it and still will not be able to boast about anything.

You begin your sentence by saying we have the ABILITY to love and end by saying we will not be ABLE to boast.

Ability is defined as being able. Having the power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.

So to say at the beginning of the sentence that we love because of our power or capacity, and then to say at the end of the same sentence that it was not our power or capacity, simply makes no sense. If we love because of Our Power and Our Capacity then it is We who do it and our Reward is heaven. And while it still may not be polite to boast, we sure are “Able” to take credit, or there is no logic in your thought process whatsoever.

So, in other words what you are saying is,

“We can do nothing to earn our salvation. But if you go to eternal suffering, it’s your own fault.”

That statement and your above quote are logically impossible.

 

[ChasClean]

Paul encourages us to finish the race. That is scripture that proves we can chose to not finish the race and if we do we don't get the crown of life laid up for us and all who love His appearing, not for those who do not love His appearing or do not finish the race.

Why would God put encouraging scriptures in the Bible, encouraging you to finish the race? Because… those scriptures are one of the means He uses to make sure you finish the race.

Which is more consistent?

1. It is only by God’s power that you can finish the race. One of the ways that power is given to you is through encouraging scripture. He opens your eyes to the truth of that scripture in His way and in His timing and then in that sense the revelation becomes yours. But it is only yours Completely because of God.

or

2. It is by your choice that you finish the race. This scripture is a burden placed on You. You finish the race or else. And by the way, if You finish the race it will not be You who finished the race, because then You could boast.



So much of this mindset is based upon the teaching that this age is it. After this age, then God can do nothing to save. That is simply not true. There are other ages to come, where God will continue and will complete His reconciliation of all.

 

[Evergreen48]

I'll try again, man has a will, but it is not free, you are either a servant of sin, our a servant of Jesus Christ, but either way you serve somebody. That should tell you that no one has a free will.

I think you are forgetting something here. Our will had to be free in order for us to choose who we would serve.


And don't bother coming back with a 'we don't choose who we serve' answer. For we sold our own selves into the 'bondage ofsin'. God did not do that. It was strictly voluntary on our part.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mark 8:36-37)

 

[Pneuma3]

I think you are forgetting something here. Our will had to be free in order for us to choose who we would serve.


And don't bother coming back with a 'we don't choose who we serve' answer. For we sold our own selves into the 'bondage ofsin'. God did not do that. It was strictly voluntary on our part.

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Mark 8:36-37)

To have a choice and to have a free will are two different things though they be closely related.

Paul says quite plainly that he willed to do such and such but could not do it because of the law of sin in his memebers. So if his will was free as you beleive why could he not do that which he wanted to do?

It's obvious to me at least that the old man nature held him in bondage to death against his will.

He even goes on to say who shall deleiver me from this body of death, then goes on to say how one is set free.

He does not say because I willed to be set free from this body of death I am free, but explains that though the law of liberty in Christ Jesus he is set free.

Being set free is not done by our will but by HIS.

Man always want to put thier hands to the ark and that way only leads to death, Jesus does not need your help to set you free, He is called our deleiver for a reason, which is because we could not free ourselves.

 

[UVsaturated]

No there is some sin that is not forgiven, the sin unto death-First John 5. I believe this is the sin of not loving others since the preceeding first four chaptes keep repeating that we are not children of God if we do not love.

The unforgiveable sin is called blaspheming the holy spirirt. What this means IMO is denying the gospel. The Gospel tells us that all sins are forgiven, thus blaspheming this makes us unforgiven because we deny Christ and his sacrifice. It is simple enough for me to understand this, but it took me a long time figure out the meaning of the unforgiveable sin.

If free will enters the picter and using our free will we accept Christ, there is no condemnation and judgment. What is your defintiionof sin? How does one sin if we have no free will?

If you think about it, the disciples did not choose Jesus, but he went out in the world and chose them. You could say that they chose to follow him, but he sought to find them first. My definition of sin refers to the above quote about the unforgiveable sin. My definition of sin is denying the gospel that everything has been atoned and paid for by Christ. No matter what it is, I believe God loves us and has sanctified the lowest sinner through Christ, regardless of their belief.

The good news is not that your are not responsible for your sin. The good news is that your sin can be forgiven in Christ and you can escape the consequences of sin which is death.

Explain to me why I should be overjoyed that I am still responsible for my sins but someone already payed for it. Are you joking to me here or are you genuinely confused. Just why should I be overjoyed in Christ paying for my weaknes but I still am responsible for it? This makes no sense at all. Christ payed for it all. Quit trying to say Christ died but we need to be good now, because we cannot and never will.

No it is not better because it makes God responsible for your sin. How do you chose to love your neighbor if you do not have free will? Does God force you to love your neighbor, but others He forces to not love?

God is the author of both good and evil. It says so in the bible, but people tend to overlook that point. I don't choose to love my neighbor. I was raised to somewhat love my neighbor, but I still reserved the right to hate my neighbor and make them do what I willed. Now I only care about what I really need from them to get by. Beyond that, I don't care what they do to me. I am not forced to hate my neighbor either, but I have every reason I should and could. The reason I don't is because I believe in logic of salvation. I cannot be a judge and condemning when I am under the same curse as my neighbor.

No it not only does not deny the sacrifice that Christ made but it is the reason for the sacrifice Christ made. What is the reason for the sacrifice of Christ if we have not made mistakes we are responsible for? How do we repent if we do not make mistakes on our own accord? Why should we repent if we are not accountable for our mistakes? Who is accountable for our mistakes-God? Is He the one who made the mistakes and not us? How can you think that?

The sacrifice Christ made was not because we sin physically, but we sin spiritually. We believe we have sinned based on looking at the flesh, which is the antichrist. His physical sacrifice is to get us to realize our disbelief, not that we actually did something wrong in the world.

 

[Benoni]

Sorry I have been out of town.

Basic Salvation and pressing towards the mark are at two ends of the question. Preachers have preached that we are saved by freewill; which is contrary to scripture.

As a believer grows and matures in Christ then that desire to push on should also grow; but what normally happens is the believer usually gets side tracked and limits God to what ever religion he is in. That is why we need Christ to lead and guide us in all truth; not man and religion. God does not call systems He calls men/women.

 

[elman]

You begin your sentence by saying we have the ABILITY to love and end by saying we will not be ABLE to boast.

Ability is defined as being able. Having the power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally, legally, morally, financially, etc.

So to say at the beginning of the sentence that we love because of our power or capacity, and then to say at the end of the same sentence that it was not our power or capacity, simply makes no sense. If we love because of Our Power and Our Capacity then it is We who do it and our Reward is heaven. And while it still may not be polite to boast, we sure are “Able” to take credit, or there is no logic in your thought process whatsoever.

So, in other words what you are saying is,

“We can do nothing to earn our salvation. But if you go to eternal suffering, it’s your own fault.”

That statement and your above quote are logically impossible.

First of all we do not go to eternal suffering. If we kill our own soul with our own sin. we simply do not receive eternal spiritual life. The wicked shall die and the righteous shall live. Why do you fail to understand I never said we were able to live without sin. We can love but we cannot love perfectly or completly. That is why we can never deserve eternal life with God and why we must have grace and forgiveness and why our salvation of the gift of eternal life is based on Gods grace and not our ability to love perfectly because we cannot love perfectly. The scriptures clearly teach we can love and we were created to love and if we do love we have the hope of the gift of eternal life, but if we do not love we do not have that hope. Jesus taught that we should love. Paul taught that everything we do is worthless without love. John taught that we cannot be a child of God if we do not love our neighbor. Therefore it is logically possible for us to be loving but none of us will be loving enough to be proud of ourselves or be able to demand eternal life. We will only receive eternal life if we are loving and we are forgiven and gifted of it by Jesus.

 

[elman]

Sorry I have been out of town.

Basic Salvation and pressing towards the mark are at two ends of the question. Preachers have preached that we are saved by freewill; which is contrary to scripture.

As a believer grows and matures in Christ then that desire to push on should also grow; but what normally happens is the believer usually gets side tracked and limits God to what ever religion he is in. That is why we need Christ to lead and guide us in all truth; not man and religion. God does not call systems He calls men/women.

I agree and He gave us the abililty to answer His call, which is free will. No the free will is not what saves us but we have no hope of the gift of eternal life if we chose to be unloving.

 

[Evergreen48]

To have a choice and to have a free will are two different things though they be closely related.

Paul says quite plainly that he willed to do such and such but could not do it because of the law of sin in his memebers. So if his will was free as you beleive why could he not do that which he wanted to do?

It's obvious to me at least that the old man nature held him in bondage to death against his will.

Not so! Paul didn't say he could not do that which was good because his old man nature held him in bondage to death against his will. You said that. He said he desired to do good, but could not do that which was good, because he did not know how to do it.
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

He even goes on to say who shall deleiver me from this body of death, then goes on to say how one is set free.

He does not say because I willed to be set free from this body of death I am free, but explains that though the law of liberty in Christ Jesus he is set free.

I think the reason why Paul does not say 'I willed to be set free from this body of death I am free', is because that was beside the point in Paul's discourse here. Romans 7 is not about 'free will' or 'no free will', but is about the struggle between the two minds of the individual who has been born of the Spirit - the mind of Christ which lives in the higher or spiritual self, versus the mind of the carnal or lower self. You are reading things into this chapter of the book of Romans that just is not there.

Being set free is not done by our will but by HIS.
Jesus does not need your help to set you free, He is called our deleiver for a reason, which is because we could not free ourselves.

Matthew 7: 13. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

While it is true that Jesus does not need our help to set us free, the above scriptures, and plenty of others throughout the Bible, in essence, teach a joint effort.

Man always want to put thier hands to the ark and that way only leads to death,

 

[Harlin]

Not so! Paul didn't say he could not do that which was good because his old man nature held him in bondage to death against his will. You said that. He said he desired to do good, but could not do that which was good, because he did not know how to do it.
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."




I think the reason why Paul does not say 'I willed to be set free from this body of death I am free', is because that was beside the point in Paul's discourse here. Romans 7 is not about 'free will' or 'no free will', but is about the struggle between the two minds of the individual who has been born of the Spirit - the mind of Christ which lives in the higher or spiritual self, versus the mind of the carnal or lower self. You are reading things into this chapter of the book of Romans that just is not there.

Matthew 7: 13. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

While it is true that Jesus does not need our help to set us free, the above scriptures, and plenty of others throughout the Bible, in essence, teach a joint effort.

Hi Evergreen,

Good post.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[martymonster]

Why would God put encouraging scriptures in the Bible, encouraging you to finish the race? Because… those scriptures are one of the means He uses to make sure you finish the race.

Which is more consistent?

1. It is only by God’s power that you can finish the race. One of the ways that power is given to you is through encouraging scripture. He opens your eyes to the truth of that scripture in His way and in His timing and then in that sense the revelation becomes yours. But it is only yours Completely because of God.

or

2. It is by your choice that you finish the race. This scripture is a burden placed on You. You finish the race or else. And by the way, if You finish the race it will not be You who finished the race, because then You could boast.



So much of this mindset is based upon the teaching that this age is it. After this age, then God can do nothing to save. That is simply not true. There are other ages to come, where God will continue and will complete His reconciliation of all.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Chas Clean again!


So annoying!

 

[Soul Searcher]

Hello,

If we are made in God's image, then according to your logic, God does not have free will.

God Bless,

Harlin

Didi you ever consider that the process of making us into his image is not yet complete ?

 

[Pneuma3]

Not so! Paul didn't say he could not do that which was good because his old man nature held him in bondage to death against his will. You said that. He said he desired to do good, but could not do that which was good, because he did not know how to do it.
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Eek gad, read the rest of it.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Pneuma3]

Hi Evergreen,

Good post.

God Bless,

Harlin

Good indeed, more like selective reading

 

[elman]

Why would God put encouraging scriptures in the Bible, encouraging you to finish the race? Because… those scriptures are one of the means He uses to make sure you finish the race.

Which is more consistent?

1. It is only by God’s power that you can finish the race. One of the ways that power is given to you is through encouraging scripture. He opens your eyes to the truth of that scripture in His way and in His timing and then in that sense the revelation becomes yours. But it is only yours Completely because of God.

or

2. It is by your choice that you finish the race. This scripture is a burden placed on You. You finish the race or else. And by the way, if You finish the race it will not be You who finished the race, because then You could boast.



So much of this mindset is based upon the teaching that this age is it. After this age, then God can do nothing to save. That is simply not true. There are other ages to come, where God will continue and will complete His reconciliation of all.

So Paul encourages me to finish the race but God is going to force me to finish the race and I have no choice and cannot drop out of the race even if I chose to do so, but I will not chose to do so, because God will not let me chose to do so. Do you really beliieve that? Do you believe God makes you sin?

 

[elman]

Deleted.