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Free will is sinful.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by UVsaturated, Jan 2, 2007.

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  1. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    ok so what you are stating then is we by our own free will chose to run in this race.

    Can you show me scriptures that states that the running in this race is done by OUR will and not the will of the Father?
     
  2. elman

    elman elman

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    Why would Paul encourage us to stay in the race if the Father gives us no choice in the matter? Why would Jesus tell us to love our neighbor if God gave us no choice? Why would Paul say faith is worthless without love if we are unable to love? Why would John teach that those who do not love are not children of God unless those who do not love are not children of God?
     
  3. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    Where is the scripture?
     
  4. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    I think we need to back up and look at a few things; when I speak of freewill not in the scriptures that is true. But the main reason for my strong disagreement with what is preached in scriptures is the freewill towards basic salvation. We are not saved by freewill; we are saved by grace.

    Once a person is born again now he begins seeing the unfolding revelations of God. Many today in the religious realm limit God to rudimentary principles

    Colossians 2:7-9 (King James Version) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.




    Main Entry: ru·di·ment

    Etymology: Latin rudimentum beginning, from rudis raw, rude
    1 : a basic principle or element or a fundamental skill -- usually used in plural <teaching themselves the rudiments of rational government -- G. B. Galanti>
    2 a : something unformed or undeveloped : BEGINNING -- usually used in plural [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e rudiments of a plan> b (1) : a body part so deficient in size or structure as to be entirely unable to perform its normal function (2) : an organ just beginning to develop
     
  5. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    God is always the first cause and way to often we lean on preachers and systems not the Spirit of Truth. Paul spooked of pressing towards that mark of the prize of the High callings of God. So many brothers and sisters in the Lord will press only to those man made limits we all know as religion. What if; God has a message that far surpasses what is called orthodoxy? That is the God I know.
     
  6. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


     
  7. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    Amen
     
  8. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    Originally Posted by Pneuma3 [​IMG]
    ok so what you are stating then is we by our own free will chose to run in this race.

    Can you show me scriptures that states that the running in this race is done by OUR will and not the will of the Father?

    Like Ben asked you brother where are the scriptures?

    You can ask all the question you want but without scripture to back it up it don't amount to much.
     
  9. UVsaturated

    UVsaturated New Member

    83
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    Let me add some extra thoughts to this for your consideration. The gospel truth is that all sin is forgiven, so by faith in this we should be able to love one another as God loves us. The problem we see is that some are hypocrites, some are atheists, whatever, etc., etc. But for the true believer, if we allow free-will to enter the picture, then we also bring about condemnation and judgement. In other words, if your neighbor sins, and you have a problem with it, then it makes it all the more difficult to forgive him and return to loving your neighbor, because you embrace the concept of free-will and believe that people are responsible for what happens. It does seem so, but sometimes it isn't so clear. Either way, if we accept fate, or destiny, then we acknowledge the divine plan of everything and have no reason to doubt the gospel, because we accept that anyones actions are not free will but pre destined to occur. Destiny, is actually a better belief system, complementing the gospels of all sins being forgiven and the concept of loving your neighbor as yourself. Free will brings in the concept that people can and do make mistakes on their own accord and should be held accountable to them, which denies the sacrifice Christ made.
     
  10. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hi Elman,

    Can God create a rock so big that not even he can lift it?
    Well would God create man with a will not even he can change it?

    I do not think so that would have man exalt himself above God then be sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (Hey that sounds familiar)

    God bless.
     
  11. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Would a good father give their child a automatic pistol for their first birthday?

    If your of sound mind I'm sure you'll find the analogy fits quite well!

    especially in light of the picture of the picture of God that your trying to paint elman!
     
  12. wmc1982

    wmc1982 Aka "Will" :)

    +253
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    I believe in Predestination, but I also believe God made us where we do have choices in life, otherwise, we would just be robots or puppets.
     
  13. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    So your saying a good father would give 1 year old a gun?
     
  14. elman

    elman elman

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    Nope, Doesn't fit my picture. My picture is of a loving God that gifts us with life and the ability to love. If we love each other He gifts us with eternal life. No pistol and no birthdays involved.
     
  15. elman

    elman elman

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    So if pressing towards the mark has nothing to do with being a child of God, why did Paul tell us to do it? Don't accuse me of saying we can earn our salvation. I am not saying that. I am saying we are involved in being a child of God by being loving and if we are not loving we have no reason to hope for the benefits of being a child of God.
     
  16. elman

    elman elman

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    If you are posting these for me, you are firing blanks. I don't believe we earn our eternal life with God. I do believe we have the ability to love and if we do not use it we will not receive the free gift of eternal life from God, but when we love and recieve that gift we will still not have earned it and still will not be able to boast about anything.
     
  17. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Well considering Jesus compared us with sheep because we are so stupid, and apparently free will is the rope we can hang ourselves with, then Yes! that is exactly what your saying, no matter how you try and word it!

    You really need to think these things through before you go blurting them out!
     
  18. elman

    elman elman

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    The question related to your interpretation of scripture and if you are unable to answer the question, maybe your interpretation of the scripture is incorrect. Yes I am saying we all chose to be children of God or we are not children of God. No one is forced to be a child of God and everyone has the ability to refuse to be a child of God. That does not mean we deserve to be a child of God nor does it mean we earn the right to be a child of God. One is a child of God if and only if one loves, First John-there is a scripture. One's faith is worthless if one does not love.--1 Cor 13- another scripture. Jesus said we are no His if we do not keep His commandments and His comandment were summed up in loving your neighbor. Matt 25:31 and following clearly teaches we are not ushered into the presence of God if we do not love others--another scripture. All of this supports my interpretation of the scripture on the race of life. Paul encourages us to finish the race. That is scripture that proves we can chose to not finish the race and if we do we don't get the crown of life laid up for us and all who love His appearing, not for those who do not love His appearing or do not finish the race.
     
  19. elman

    elman elman

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    No there is some sin that is not forgiven, the sin unto death-First John 5. I believe this is the sin of not loving others since the preceeding first four chaptes keep repeating that we are not children of God if we do not love.
    If free will enters the picter and using our free will we accept Christ, there is no condemnation and judgment. What is your defintiionof sin? How does one sin if we have no free will?

    The good news is not that your are not responsible for your sin. The good news is that your sin can be forgiven in Christ and you can escape the consequences of sin which is death.

    No it is not better because it makes God responsible for your sin. How do you chose to love your neighbor if you do not have free will? Does God force you to love your neighbor, but others He forces to not love?

    No it not only does not deny the sacrifice that Christ made but it is the reason for the sacrifice Christ made. What is the reason for the sacrifice of Christ if we have not made mistakes we are responsible for? How do we repent if we do not make mistakes on our own accord? Why should we repent if we are not accountable for our mistakes? Who is accountable for our mistakes-God? Is He the one who made the mistakes and not us? How can you think that?
     
  20. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian
    I'll try again, man has a will, but it is not free, you are either a servant of sin, our a servant of Jesus Christ, but either way you serve somebody. That should tell you that no one has a free will.

    Now as we abide in Christ we put on His mind (the will is in ones mind) and He is the only one who is free, as He is risen. While in this earthly clay our will is bound by the law of sin in our members, which overrides our will just as Paul explains. The child of God that runs the race, runs it not because of thier own will but because they are putting on the mind of Christ and it is His will that we finish the course. Hope you can understand that.
     
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