Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

JIMINZ

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It wasn't inevitable, and the fact that Adam sinned proves nothing about him being "sin-prone" but only that he didn't resist temptation although he could have done so.

I don't mean to be picky, but where does it say that Adam was tempted?

1Ti_2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

It says that Adam was not even in the transgression, so what then was His Sin?

Adam was told to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam did eat, he subsequently died both Spiritually, and Physically.

Was Adams death because of disobedience to God, or was it because the Tree had death residing within the fruit which God had said would cause him to die?

And oh, man never had free will, especially the way we believe it to be.

Adam was created in the Image and Likeness of God, but he was a lesser because God said "do not eat"

An equal cannot Command an equal.

Adam was a servant, God placed him in the Garden to dress it and keep it, does not sound like someone who possessed free will to say "NO" I want to be an Engineer.
 
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JIMINZ

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Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is in the hands of created beings. To show us that ONLY God in His inherent perfection can be trusted with this power.

The angels were also given this gift of free will, and many fell to the same fate as mankind, with the exception of the "elect angels"; the ones preserved in a righteous state by God, and who have been enabled to perpetually serve Him dutifully and completely.

What you or anyone else would call Free Will only resides withing the framework of what God called
"The Dominion over the earth, to subdue it"
Free Will does not exist outside of this framework God placed it in.

Adam Fell from being a Servant of God to being a Servant of Sin until such a time Gods Grace comes to him and he becomes a Servant of God once again, this is RECONCILIATION.
 
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JIMINZ

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“Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is…”.

Eve had a conversation with a Serpent, she subsequently ate the fruit.

She was deceived, pure and simple, no Free Will (required) to be deceived.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No. All that we are shown is that God gave instructions to Adam and he violated them. There is nothing about that which indicates that Adam's inherent nature was "sin-prone."

Well I would say that given the evidence seen in all man that Adam was no different in his nature since he appears to show the same handicap.
 
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Albion

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I don't mean to be picky, but where does it say that Adam was tempted?
You know. That serpent stuff and then when his wife, Eve, pressured Adam to go along with her choice to go against God's wishes. ;)

It says that Adam was not even in the transgression, so what then was His Sin?
If Adam was not a transgressor, why did he get driven from the Garden by God, forced to labor and die a physical death, and all the rest?

Was Adams death because of disobedience to God, or was it because the Tree had death residing within the fruit which God had said would cause him to die?
The first of those.
 
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JIMINZ

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I explained why free will is needed for humans to fulfill their earthly objective, which you did not address.

What is this earthly objective mankind needs Free Will in order to fulfill
 
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JIMINZ

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You know. That serpent stuff and then when his wife, Eve, pressured Adam to go along with her choice to go against God's wishes. ;)


If Adam was not a transgressor, why did he get driven from the Garden by God, forced to labor and die a physical death, and all the rest?


The first of those.

I think it would be best for you to go back and read the whole narrative about what happened, and not take just what you have been taught it means.
 
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Clare73

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?
Interesting, to say the least.

But Scripture now focuses on our disposition--what we prefer, which is the problem to be remedied, and at which Scripture is directed.

That is what we need to understand, focus on and deal with, and the Biblical solution to that problem.
 
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Clare73

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Human free will, I think, is limited to things temporal. We can choose to sleep in or wake up early, wear a button down shirt or pullover, eat this but not that, vacation here and not there, befriend him but not her, etc. However, because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, we are unable on our own to respond to God's offer of grace; we must be prompted. When we hear the Lord calling and hear HIS offer, we either say "yes" or "no", but it is the power of the Spirit of God that quickens us to the point where we do say "yes." Is it irresistible grace? Or is it free angency of human beings that lifts us to the point of saying "Yes, I will exercise my free will and accept your offer, Lord."
Monergism vs synergism. All the debates throughout history have not settled the matter, excpet in the minds of those staunch proponents of either of the two positions.
The NT makes it pretty clear in Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

I don't hope to improve on it.

See more in post #71.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nothing is said about some angels being given something different than those angels who sinned, which would be totally unjust on God’s part.

This is pure speculation on your part: “Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is…”.

I explained why free will is needed for humans to fulfill their earthly objective, which you did not address.
Will, perhaps. Free? —no.

BTW, their earthly objective is in God's hands, to become the members that will be Bride of Christ, to God's glory. (No, I didn't say we have no responsibility in the matter.)
 
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Clare73

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From what you said and please correct me if I am wrong: “Sinful humans have free will while here on earth?”
You also seem to be stating: Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how bad free will is?
What glory, honor, praise and submissiveness could man bring to God without having the free will choice to do otherwise?
Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard of “very good”, which I would say: “The best two made beings could be made.” Christ is perfect, but Christ is not a made being but deity, so God cannot make clones of a perfect Christ.
Adam and Eve lacked one very important attribute which could keep them from sinning, but that attribute is something even God cannot gift them, because it has to be humbly accepted of their own free will, let me explain:
Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults (which Adam and Eve showed themselves and us) to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.
Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man, which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as, His sake.
You have ascribed a fallen human definition to an attribute of the holy, infinite and sovereign God, which has no basis in Scripture.

Anything you build on this principle will be fallen human rubbish.
 
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Albion

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I think it would be best for you to go back and read the whole narrative about what happened, and not take just what you have been taught it means.
Sure, I was speaking casually there, but I'd recommend you check out Genesis 3:11-13, 17-19, and 23-24.
 
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JIMINZ

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Sure, I was speaking casually there, but I'd recommend you check out Genesis 3:11-13, 17-19, and 23-24.

Gods' judgement on what Adam had done was in verses 17-19 it was not for having a conversation with the serpent and exercising his Free Will, it says he took from Eve, and did eat.
 
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Albion

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Gods' judgement on what Adam had done was in verses 17-19 it was not for having a conversation with the serpent and exercising his Free Will, it says he took from Eve, and did eat.
Don't make it a point to ignore the other verses that I listed.

They, if read, will correct the misapprehension that you've outlined for us here.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Eve had a conversation with a Serpent, she subsequently ate the fruit.

She was deceived, pure and simple, no Free Will (required) to be deceived.

Dear Jiminz,
I read your posts and agree with most of your comments, especially when you said that mankind does not have a free will.

God's "will" rules supreme in His creation. God is spirit and He does His work "within" mankind. He is the one who gives us our thoughts and beliefs. Mankind's carnal nature makes us believe that we have a free will but it is only because God has put obscurity in the heart of mankind:

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

God's "work" is spiritual work and it happens "within" mankind. But because of our carnal nature and the fact that mankind is spiritually blind, we don't realize it when God does His spiritual work in our hearts. God's Word even says this:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Back to Adam and Eve, your comments are correct on them, too. But I will add that they were created spiritually marred and because of such, they quickly became carnally minded. But God made them this way on purpose so that Eve would be deceived by Satan and sin. God placed Satan in the Garden for the purpose for which He was created and that is to "destroy".

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Eve displayed all three of the causes of sin (which originate from our carnal nature) BEFORE she sinned. She was made spiritually marred on purpose so that she would sin and become "evil".

This creation of God's is for the purpose of creating new children of God. This is how God produces His offspring. And to be like God, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". For that reason, God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

An experience of evil has also been given to us to humble us:

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

In this creation, God is working all things after the counsel of His own "will" to accomplish producing new children for Himself. He created us evil at the beginning. He is now in the process of restoring us back to Himself. He sent Christ to accomplish this great work:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ and He will not fail in the restoration of ALL mankind. In this present age, Christ is saving the First-Fruits (the Elect, the Heirs, etc.) of His harvest of mankind. He is not saving anyone else at this time. But He will not let the rest of mankind rot in the field. At the end of the harvest season (end of the Lake of Fire age), He will bring in the full harvest of mankind.

In the end, this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Nothing in God's creation happens by chance nor does God just allow things to just happen. He is the cause behind all things, even the salvation of mankind. We do not have a free will to save ourselves. We are saved solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen.

Joe
 
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Saint Steven

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.
Interesting topic. Thanks.

Today I saw an interesting definition of free will = self-determination.

I'm questioning where this whole concept of free will came from, especially in reference to salvation.
 
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JIMINZ

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Don't make it a point to ignore the other verses that I listed.

They, if read, will correct the misapprehension that you've outlined for us here.

What misapprehension, I have none.
 
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Clare73

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Interesting topic. Thanks.

Today I saw an interesting definition of free will = self-determination.

I'm questioning where this whole concept of free will came from, especially in reference to salvation.
Check Aristotle, Plato and Cicero for free will.
Check human reasoning for it in reference to salvation.
The reasoning is thus:
If man is responsible for sin, then he must be morally free to not sin. Therefore, the necessity of free will according to human reasoning.

See post #71 for fuller presentation of "free will."
 
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JIMINZ

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Interesting topic. Thanks.

Today I saw an interesting definition of free will = self-determination.

I'm questioning where this whole concept of free will came from, especially in reference to salvation.

The only place I have been able to define Free Will adequately is in direct relation to Salvation.

Therefore I have come to the conclusion mankind has never possessed nor will he in the future, Free Will.

You can choose which socks to wear today, but you do not possess the attribute of choosing not to sin.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

It is our nature to sin, because of the Fall, no Free Will there. (Servant = Slave)

You can choose what Kind of car to drive, but you do not possess the attribute to choose the day of your Salvation.

Eph 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit. 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Jas. 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Paul and James wrote letters to Believers saying they were Servants of God. (Servant = Slave).

So then, we go from being Slaves of Sin, to being Slaves of God. (Slaves none the less, Slaves do not Possess Free Will.

I do not believe that this belief of mankind having Free Will pertains to anything inside of the Spiritual Realm.

Therefore we as Sinners or Believers do not Possess Free Will
 
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3 Resurrections

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He created us evil at the beginning.

I would disagree with this statement. Ecclesiastes said that "God hath made man upright", and God pronounced His own creation at the beginning "good" and "very good". No evil created at the beginning. Just a probationary status that was forfeited when the original couple obeyed Satan's suggestion instead of God's command.

I DO agree with this, however:
We do not have a free will to save ourselves. We are saved solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen.

A rather inept analogy for the fall would be a comparison to Satan dangling an enticing ad on Eve's computer screen. When she fell for the deceptive ad, she convinced Adam to click on it with her, which introduced a computer virus that has infected the entire system ever since. It takes God to clean the bugs out of the system.
 
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